snallygaster Wrote:I think Tobberoth is wrong about not needing a degree for a regular work visa; I've heard that it's not technically a law, but it's a guideline issued by the government which all businesses comply with. Trust me, eikaiwas would hire kids fresh out of high school if they could, or at least consider degreeless applicants with TESL training.

Many of them do. Sure, some eikaiwas require degrees, I'm pretty sure the majority of them are satisfied if you're just a native. It wouldn't even matter if it is the majority, the point is that I know several people who have worked in Japan as English teachers without a degree.

Again, it's completely up to the employer. If the eikaiwa demands you have a degree, they won't sponsor your working visa. If they don't care, they will and you'll get the visa.

bodhisamaya Wrote:

Wizard Wrote:Japan isn't a fantastic wonderous utopia of a country, you should really try to see the real side of it before wanting to migrate there.

It is filled with problems such as racism, a ridiculous government, and obscene laws and a police force that is probably the worst in the world.

Doing the ALT gig for a year or two is probably the most you will ever want to experience, unless you have no hopes and dreams of ever having a decent wage or self-respect.

Absolutely not reflective of my experience. It was the greatest time of my life and I plan on moving back in a year or two.

Really? Could you tell me a bit more about what you do there and why it's so great?

The majority of people that go to Japan end up working in the eikaiwa business, which pays very little, offers you no useful experience to gain better employment in the future, and the job market is oversaturated, meaning you are expendable.

To get a non-eikaiwa job is quite difficult. What are you planning to do when you return? I am hoping to return there in the future too, but helping to set up a Japan branch of a large business.

I had the time of my life while I was there too, but a couple of years living like a student is fun until you want to buy a house and have kids and think about the future.... living there and taking an extended vacation there are very different things, that should be considered before randomly wanting to move to another country.

snallygaster Wrote:IAnd Wizard, "the worst police force in the world?" I don't mean to sound rude, but give your ***** head a shake. That's not only ridiculous on its face, but really insulting to anyone living in a country with a truly oppressive police force. Maybe you just meant it as a figure of speech, but get real. That's just the kind of hyperbole that helps nobody.

Firstly, I don't see how my comment is insulting to anyone, I think you should calm down a bit and don't be rude to me.

The great country of Japan that you seem to worship has a history of forced confessions, can hold you up to 21 days without access to a lawyer or a translator, can withhold food and sleep during that time. It has a 99% conviction rate, with some judges never ever having found anyone innocent in their entire careers. People have died in police custody in Japan for unexplained reasons. Police do not put themselves before the public, are generally impolite and unhelpful, and very often racist. In three years in japan I was stopped over thirty times simply for being a foreigner. Japanese police will often side with the Japanese person in a dispute (most Japanese people have this instinct of Japan vs. Gaikoku).

For more reading, just look at amnesty international's site. The police don't even record the interviews they have with people. It is better to plead guilty than innocent simply because you are going to be convicted anyway, and you will get a slightly lesser sentence if you plead guilty. A signed confession, even if forced, is often sufficient for a conviction.

I agree that Japan has a horrible police force overall and that the conviction rate is extreme... but I don't agree about them being rude, that never happened to me. I can definitely see them siding with a Japanese person versus a foreigner, but I was not stopped even once while living in Tokyo. I think that if you get in trouble, they will be extra suspicious since you're a foreigner, which is of course unacceptable. However, I don't think they suspect you of anything SIMPLY because you're a foreigner.

PS. I think it's pretty obvious the Cardassians in Star Trek were based on the Japanese. Seems they have a lot in common, especially in law enforcement...

Tobberoth Wrote:PS. I think it's pretty obvious the Cardassians in Star Trek were based on the Japanese. Seems they have a lot in common, especially in law enforcement...

That was random. Kinda makes me want to watch Star Trek to see what you are talking about (I've only watched Voyager). In Japanese of course...perhaps... maybe...


I'll consider it.....

kazelee Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:PS. I think it's pretty obvious the Cardassians in Star Trek were based on the Japanese. Seems they have a lot in common, especially in law enforcement...

That was random. Kinda makes me want to watch Star Trek to see what you are talking about (I've only watched Voyager). In Japanese of course...perhaps... maybe...


I'll consider it.....

If you want to see what I was talking about in particular, watch Star Trek Deep Space 9. The first season is pretty much crap, the second one is quite good and the rest is great. Cardassians are the main antagonists in the start of that series.

snallygaster Wrote:I think Tobberoth is wrong about not needing a degree for a regular work visa; I've heard that it's not technically a law, but it's a guideline issued by the government which all businesses comply with. Trust me, eikaiwas would hire kids fresh out of high school if they could, or at least consider degreeless applicants with TESL training.
Of course, as everyone says, Japan is neither a Utopia nor Hell, but different people have different experiences. Just have an open mind and wait & see -- that might be the best approach.
And Wizard, "the worst police force in the world?" I don't mean to sound rude, but give your ***** head a shake. That's not only ridiculous on its face, but really insulting to anyone living in a country with a truly oppressive police force. Maybe you just meant it as a figure of speech, but get real. That's just the kind of hyperbole that helps nobody.

It explains on the ministry of japanese foreign affairs site that you don't have to have a degree a certain amount of work experience can be used to obtain a visa instead of a degree.

http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/appendix1.html

Also good news for us IT folks i hope.

http://www.goinglobal.com/countries/japan/it.asp

EDIT: Also done a little more research and apparantly IT is included under the Engineering visa

This business about 99% conviction rate is misleading. It is high only because they only prosecute sure-win cases. The rate of prosecution is very low. In other words, the accused are less likely to face criminal penalty. Although they have a unique system to appeal of the decision not to prosecute, very few prosecutorial decisions are ever reversed.

Instead, what often occurs, is a form of financial settlement between the accused and the victim. This is entirely different from criminal law in Canada, US, UK where a criminal case is between the crown (gov't) and the accused. Any issue of victim compensation would be handled, if at all, through separate legislation.

Japan doesn't have the same protective laws with respect to criminal due process as some other countries, but they are certainly not on par with some of the worst police forces in the world.

[deleted para]

i'm sorry but i have to agree... the police in japan do suck and tend to be very racist, at least from what i have encountered... one of my biggest advice to give is to ALWAYS have your passport in your pocket.. i was going to get something to eat at a convenient store one night and was stopped by a policeman.. it was late at night (about 2am) and i was riding my bicycle that i had bought at a local bike shop.. he accused me of stealing the bicycle because foreigners visiting japan don't own bicycles.. he then asked me for my passport, which i had left at the hostel.. so after that, i had to wait for 30 minutes for him to call another police man who spoke English (yeh i knew next to no japanese at that time) they then followed me back to my hostel where i got my passport and showed them and then i had to ride my bike back to the convenient store to get what i was trying to get..

and now for the next story.. one day i found a japanese man's wallet laying on the road and decided to do the honest thing and take it to the police station... i didn't know how to get to the police station (and i didn't speak japanese) so i had to wait until one of the bilingual people in our hostel got home later that afternoon... i told him what happened and he walked with me to the police station (in exchange for a free English lesson hehe) anyways, when we got there and handed the policeman the wallet he said "what time did you find this wallet and where?" and we told him and he said "why didn't you give this to us as soon as you found it?" it was like he was accusing me of going to keep it and then deciding to turn it in later on. luckily my bilingual friend told him off and said "well, if you were in London and you found a wallet, wouldn't you be scared about turning in a wallet to the police if you couldn't speak English?"
EDIT: they also asked to see my passport this time too

stuff like that kinda ticks me off a little, but overall i enjoyed my stay in japan (btw, i've been every year for the last 4 years for at least a month each time) i wonder how real-world japan will be though as i have only seen it through the eyes as a tourist.. i imagine the work life being different than the laid back do what ever you want for a month life....

So back to Turning Leaf's original question .... I think it's fantastic that the OP can receive such a great amount of info from people here. Imagine trying to do it before stuff was available online?

The suggestion to going to Japan for a few months first, then take another look at what you really want to do seems like a good one. And perhaps aim higher than just getting by. You can always decide to just coast in the future once you're established, but it's harder to do it in the reverse. From your posts here, you seem like a motivated and hardworking person. Perhaps what you studied at college just wasn't your passion. At 18, you have so many options! Try to keep them open. Good luck.

Yes, there's a nice mixture of opinions here. Taking in all the practical details, I don't think one could remain deluded about Japan for long, if they were to begin with. But then again, I just can't imagine anyone finishing RTK and continuing on to sentences and still thinking Japan is a magical utopia.

tibul Wrote:Also good news for us IT folks i hope.

http://www.goinglobal.com/countries/japan/it.asp

EDIT: Also done a little more research and apparantly IT is included under the Engineering visa

Sounds good. Use your mad IT skillz to get yourself a certificate someplace and take off!

Wizard Wrote:

bodhisamaya Wrote:

Wizard Wrote:Japan isn't a fantastic wonderous utopia of a country, you should really try to see the real side of it before wanting to migrate there.

It is filled with problems such as racism, a ridiculous government, and obscene laws and a police force that is probably the worst in the world.

Doing the ALT gig for a year or two is probably the most you will ever want to experience, unless you have no hopes and dreams of ever having a decent wage or self-respect.

Absolutely not reflective of my experience. It was the greatest time of my life and I plan on moving back in a year or two.

Really? Could you tell me a bit more about what you do there and why it's so great?

I can - I arrived 2 years ago as an English teacher for Nova which I did for 3 months. I found a new job in Tokyo soon after (in IT) and moved right over. I didn't like the company I worked for much, so I got a new job in an investment bank making close to 4x as much as an english teacher salary.

Quote:The majority of people that go to Japan end up working in the eikaiwa business, which pays very little, offers you no useful experience to gain better employment in the future, and the job market is oversaturated, meaning you are expendable.

Absolutely, but not everyone has to stay in the same dead end job forever. I've met plenty of people who have taught english for 20 years and don't speak Japanese - and it's completely their own fault, not that of Japanese society.

Quote:To get a non-eikaiwa job is quite difficult. What are you planning to do when you return? I am hoping to return there in the future too, but helping to set up a Japan branch of a large business.

I had the time of my life while I was there too, but a couple of years living like a student is fun until you want to buy a house and have kids and think about the future.... living there and taking an extended vacation there are very different things, that should be considered before randomly wanting to move to another country.

I agree it might be too soon for someone to decide where they want to live for the rest of their lives, but I just wanted to point out that one can prosper in Japan - even if you personally couldn't.

Only having GCSE's makes it tough to get over here though. I would say that without further education, your odds of ever living and working permanently in Japan are extremely low - at least in the near future.

Wizard, I've lived in Japan for a lot longer than you did and am familiar with the problems of the Japanese police force. All of the problems you cite are real, and serious, but none are anywhere near bad enough to consider Japanese police in the bottom half of the world's forces, let alone the very bottom. Maybe you're the one who should check out Amnesty International's site. You can make a good-faith argument about Japan's police force being better or worse than, say, the USA's. But you can't make a good-faith argument about it being worse than, say, Burma's, or Haiti's, or any number of other countries'. "Worshiping" Japan has nothing to do with it; it's more about insulting our intelligence.
Anyway, sorry for getting off topic.

Anyway, as far as the visa issue goes, I guess it doesn't hurt to try. I've also known a lot of people working at eikaiwa without degrees, but all of them already had visas (either spousal, or from a previous non-eikaiwa job) and were in Japan when they were hired. If anyone can find an advertised eikaiwa position that will sponsor a visa for someone without a degree, I guess that would be helpful to the OP.

And concerning the most important issue, I always thought the Romulans = Japanese in TNG, shifting to Vulcans = Japanese in DS9 as fear of Japan subsided in real-life USA. The Cardassians were, for me, Latin American death squads or Nazis, except when the writers decided it was time for another non-subtle "Cardassia/Bajor = Israel/Palestine!!!1!" episode. Let's not get into the Ferengi

About visas..

Almost all visa listed on the Japanese visa site linked above (and here: http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/appendix1.html) spell out pretty clearly that you need a Degree or 3 years of experience in the field to acquire a Work Visa.

I met some teachers teaching without a degree - they were all either on spouse visas or working holiday visa. I met teachers without a degree who wanted to stay in Japan but, after their working holiday visa ran out, were forced to return as there was no other option for them to stay.

The following is just sort of what I've picked up from talking with bosses and co-workers, so y'know, take it with a grain of salt: Japanese immigration is sorta notorious I guess for bending/creating new rules and covering all of their activities in mystery/secrecy. I wouldn't say it's -impossible- to get a Visa outside of those guidelines on that website, but I would say it's next to impossible.

To the OP, I would say these are your options:
Working Holiday Visa (1 year only)
Tourist visa (3 months, renewable a few times - but you cannot work)
Work Visa (Requires 3 years of experience or a college degree)
Language School
Exchange Student

I don't know what your financial situation or university options are like, but if I were you, I'd consider finding a university with a strong international exchange program. This would set you on a nice path to get some exposure of Japan while still keeping up with school. Then, once finished with school, you'd have some nice inroads into getting a job in the country if that's what you want.

OR

Do the 1 year Working Holiday Visa in between HS and Uni. This'll give you a lot of good exposure to Japan as well and allow you to save up some money for Uni. To do this, you'll obviously need to save a little money for plane ticket and first month's living expenses. Also, you'll have to find a job - which isn't so difficult. There are many, many sites on the internet full of job listings for English teaching positions and they regularly hire degree-less people on the Working Holiday Visa. Your age might be a problem for some, though - I've never seen a teacher that young in Japan. But I don't really know about that.

Regarding the VISA situation. Since you are from the UK you can go for a working holiday visa, which requires no degree. However generally speaking most english teachers have degrees and are on a "specialist in humanities visa". You will not qualify for this with a 3 month course on teaching english. The easiest way is to have a degree, if you don't have a degree you will need 10 years experience related to the job. So if you taught english for 10 years in the UK, then applied you could probably get a "specialist in humanities visa".

I strongly advise you to research VISA requirements thoroughly rather than listen to what random people on the internet say. Nearly everyone on here is well intentioned, but may be misinformed. I don't believe english teaching companies in Japan can sponsor random people without college degrees or the prerequisite experience for working visas. Everyone I knew who was teaching english either had a college degree or was on a working holiday visa or was married to a japanese person (and had a spouse visa). Some people are in the country illegally ie they entered on a holiday visa and overstayed, or they or the sponsoring company submitted false information on their visa application etc.

Here are the VISA categories

http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/04.html

Here are the criteria

http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/appendix1.html

I started writing this before seeing the above post. I agree with everything above poster said !!

PS. Don't write off college altogether. Maybe spend some time doing something else and then try again later.

MeNoSavvy Wrote:Don't take this the wrong way but a lot of younger people on this forum seem to have an unrealistic image of Japan. I'm not saying it is a bad country, but being a foreigner in Japan is not always that easy, and it is tough to find a good job. 。。。
。。。My advice to you is to get yourself an education before moving to Japan. It is tough enough to find a job with a degree and experience, without a degree it will be much tougher...ETC　

MeNoSavvy の返事（上で読めます）が私には賢いそうだ。私は何でも外国からきた英会話を教えている人が知っています。日本は今景気後退から立ち直るう努力を続けている。このごろ、産業では競争が激しい。気を付けてください。けれども、希望を失ってはいけない。

The following also give a perspective re Eikawa/stepping on and the current climate:
http://www.j2fi.net/2008/12/10/unemployed-gaijin/
http://www.mutantfrog.com/2008/12/12/whe...achers-go/

Australian university students are able to apply for a AU$10,000 zero interest loan (repayable through tax) from the government to study in any foreign country for one year. You can also concurrently receive additional government support (e.g., Youth Allowance) as well as other scholarships. This basically means that if you're a university student in Australia, you can easily afford go on exchange to Japan if you want to.

I had $0 in my bank account and my family certainly isn't rich, but thanks to all the support available to me, I'm able to spend the next year studying at a Japanese university. It's the cheapest (but not the easiest) way to get yourself overseas as far as I know.

On the degree question: it does seem like a degree would make it much easier to live and work in Japan. But there are at least a couple universities in Japan that take English-speaking students with no Japanese background. The ones I'm familiar with are Sophia University and International Christian University, both in the Tokyo area. They have both Japanese and international students; I imagine it'd be a good environment in which to learn Japanese. I know two Japanese women who are alumni, one from each. I think both of them had really good experiences there, though I imagine it's very different as a foreigner.

I just took a look at the tuition and so forth. They're a little cheaper than similar universities in the States, but I don't know how hard it is to get financial aid. You can work part-time on a student visa. I imagine you'd be able to find English teaching work without too many problems if you already had a visa -- though you wouldn't be able to count on it being enough to cover expenses.

http://www.icu.ac.jp/index_e.html
http://www.sophia.ac.jp/E/E_toppage.nsf/

tibul Wrote:Not sure if this is true but I remember reading some were that if you found an employer willing to sponsor your working visa while you was on a working holiday visa you would be allowed to stay without having to leave the country (although they don't actively promote this), anybody know if this is true?

Sorry this thread is hard to read, but I think nobody has answered this question yet. This is true, I did it this way. I came on WHV initially and joined my company about 3 months after arriving. I worked there until it expired after 1 year and then we did some simple paperwork to enable me to convert from WHV to regular Working Visa. In fact I had to do all the paperwork myself because our "visa consultant" gave us the wrong information and forms. I guess it is not done very often... so don't trust what anybody tells you whether on some random internet forum or even if you pay for it.

I see lots of mis-advice here about not needing degrees. Trust me you will find it VERY hard if you are not married to a Japanese without a degree. You should have a skilled occupation and at least 5 years or maybe it was 10 years of direct experience proven in that highly skilled occupation.

craigatk Wrote:

tibul Wrote:Not sure if this is true but I remember reading some were that if you found an employer willing to sponsor your working visa while you was on a working holiday visa you would be allowed to stay without having to leave the country (although they don't actively promote this), anybody know if this is true?

Sorry this thread is hard to read, but I think nobody has answered this question yet. This is true, I did it this way. I came on WHV initially and joined my company about 3 months after arriving. I worked there until it expired after 1 year and then we did some simple paperwork to enable me to convert from WHV to regular Working Visa. In fact I had to do all the paperwork myself because our "visa consultant" gave us the wrong information and forms. I guess it is not done very often... so don't trust what anybody tells you whether on some random internet forum or even if you pay for it.

I see lots of mis-advice here about not needing degrees. Trust me you will find it VERY hard if you are not married to a Japanese without a degree. You should have a skilled occupation and at least 5 years or maybe it was 10 years of direct experience proven in that highly skilled occupation.

Thanks a lot for this exactly what I was looking for, In my case I'm going to have to aim for 10 years experience in IT as I don't have a degree, although a few things I've read around the net suggest that they are sometimes more willing to give out visa's (for lesser experience) for IT as there in such demand anybody here have any sort of experience like this?

Thora Wrote:I'm not sure why you are using Japanese here. Are you seeking corrections?

v.quick reply mate: cos I'm in lockdown AJATT, even production mode. Playing devil's advocate btw why are you using English? My Japanese is patchy at best, not seeking corrections just giving it a go. My Japanese wife (こわい化け物ような先生) or local ward office teachers （親切なおばあさん）soon get stuck into the corrections! ok, enough ice-cream and thread space (btw some great advice on this one) back to Language Exchange.　

Ben_Nielson Wrote:Tourist visa (3 months, renewable a few times - but you cannot work)

As I said in an earlier post, it's not a visa. Thus there is no way to renew it (since you don't get anything). You therefore have to leave the country and re-enter to get a new waiver. Do this too many times (more than 3x it seems) and you end up denied entry and banned for awhile, with all your stuff on the other side of the border.

You can easily find under the table work to do without having a visa that allows work, but it's deportation & banning if you get caught. The pay usually sucks too. (700-800yen/hr)

tibul Wrote:Thanks a lot for this exactly what I was looking for, In my case I'm going to have to aim for 10 years experience in IT as I don't have a degree, although a few things I've read around the net suggest that they are sometimes more willing to give out visa's (for lesser experience) for IT as there in such demand anybody here have any sort of experience like this?

Wait for the recession storm to calm down. The outsourcing industry was very hard-hit (just read the news) and that accounts for a lot of IT-jobs. I should know, I had to look for a new job for just this reason. 3 months on unemployment insurance. I had a similar experience in Sweden after the IT-bubble: No job offers and certainly not for foreigners. Watch the economy and wait for a good time before moving (unless you found a job upfront).