Dood, you've got to come down. I don't know how you think you re coming across, but to me you seem to be standing on a high horse shouting at everyone.

Remember, communication is not what or how you say something, it is how others perceive what you said.

KanjiHanzi Wrote:How utterly American!, Selling, selling, selling. Pity this silly European living with the illusion that this was a public forum where you can exchange ideas around Heisig and other other methods learning Kanji, even including Hanzi and Chinese now and then. How utterly stupid of me to expect that there was an open door to SHARING some insights I took the liberty to post on a blog. Will I ever learn how the world REALLY works?

Don't speculate about my nationally. I am ethnically Belarussian. I have lived in America, Belarus, Japan, Pakistan, and the Philippines, and traveled to many countries.

I merely pointed out how I felt. You are doing the same, yet when people criticize your posts, you freak out. Further, (I didn't want to say anything before) your English is a bit awkward, and confusing. So if we don't fully understand you, don't try to blame us.

I'm still trying to figure out what this thread is about. Is the OP on meth??

Quote:First I quote my praise and then I am merely referring to the reception I have received from you and a few other members in this particular thread .

From me!? Wow. The only thing I've done until you made your "so I might have to revise my positive 'review'. A pity, really." remark was offer suggestions and ask questions.

KanjiHanzi Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:

KanjiHanzi Wrote:Hmmm... It's been almost a year since I was a frequent visitor here - sometimes on a daily basis - and the friendliness mentioned above was all I can remember from that period of time and years back. This has obviously changed considerably so I might have to revise my positive 'review'. A pity, really.

There's this thing called a first impression. You are really not making a good one, to me at least. It's not because of your ideas; they're in the spirit of learning and I'm always open to suggestion. It's because of your attitude toward criticism. Criticm's going to happen if you throw out such statements as you have. Instead of trying to make your point more clear you resort to posts like this.

Not only is this unfair on behalf of this forum, it shows poor character on your part. I am more than a bit disappointed in you for this.

Well... that's a real pity. Your disappointment, I mean. First I quote my praise and then I am merely referring to the reception I have received from you and a few other members in this particular thread ..... Fabrice was the same gentleman as I have experienced him for many years. I should have been more careful in saying "this forum" since I have not read so very much posts here lately. Consider my replies offered to those less than nice responses I had as a sample.

I am all ears if I get some sensible critique of where I was offensive in my very first post to this forum. I was also very interested in a constructive discussion of what I posted, NOT some dogmatic trivia about how to use and not use the Heisig TECHNIQUE or METHOD, if you prefer that label. We are not discussing some theological nuances of the Holy Scripture, are we?

You are projecting your argument with Tobberoth on to me now.

Quote:

kazelee Wrote:It's because of your attitude toward criticism. Criticm's going to happen if you throw out such statements as you have. Instead of trying to make your point more clear you resort to posts like this.

What criticism?? I have not seen any. And what statements from me (in the initial post)?? I have tried to make my point very clear, but I can't repeat this endlessly in each and every post, can I? Read what I have posted and then come back with proper examples of this and that. Quote. Don't merely ramble without any kind of reference to what you are hinting at. Quote!

Kanji Hanzi
http://kanjihanzi.blogspot.com/

You are a jerk. Seriously. And you are arguing with the wrong person. I'm asking questions, you are blaming an entire forum for your lack of tack.

If you want some quotes, here they are.

Quote:until other evidence appears I am absolutely convinced that JAPANESE IS THE MOST DIFFICULT LANGUAGE IN THE WORLD TO LEARN (for us westerners), and so by a considerable margin.

Quote:Heisig has no or very little faith in our ability to memorize SHAPES and insists on adding a mnemonic STORY to each and every Kanji.

Quote:What I am saying, though, is that I have re-evaluated the need to keep a Iron Curtain behind the Heisig way of learning Kanji and learning other aspects. In particular I am strongly advising against blindly accepting this dogma when it comes to Hanzi,

I wish you the best of success in journey.

Quote:From my point of view I was among friends even if we hadn't talked and it felt natural to do what I did.

You were.

Emphasis on were.

nest0r Wrote:I'm still trying to figure out what this thread is about. Is the OP on meth??

Probably some random guy who was impressed by Khazus following and wanted one of his own. Since he couldn't think of an original technique, he took Heisigs one, tried to find problems with it to fix, failed and simply reworded it. Now he expects people to migrate to it from here and talk about him like they do about Khazu.

BTW, I resent that Toblerone remark! I hear that enough in real life

KanjiHanzi Wrote:I have had a LONG relationship to this forum, even if I haven't posted. I have never ever seen any hint of rules for How To Present Yourself. From my point of view I was among friends even if we hadn't talked and it felt natural to do what I did.

I don't think you've had a true relationship with this forum until you started posting. Think of it in the context of inter-human (相 relations: would you say you have a relationship with a person that you've never talked to? To us, you're still the new guy (even moreso than me) because we don't know you that well.

KanjiHanzi Wrote:Selling, selling, selling. Promotion, promotion. Same track. Same view of the world as nothing but a Business Machine. Well it isn't. I am spoiled with hte pre-net online world on CompuServe (and much less America Online) where people did this kind of sharing of ideas and experiences all the time without being labeled as some cheap salesmen.

While not all of us live in/have lived in the United States, lots of us have. And we're pretty good at recognizing a sales pitch when we see one. This definitely looks like one. I mean, the title of this forum is 'Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub, and at the bottom of every single post is a link to your blog.

Maybe in your 'spoiled pre-net online' days, this was acceptable, but today's internet sees this as a marketing ploy.

oregum Wrote:yet when people criticize your posts, you freak out.

You are perfectly entitled to this point of view. But it's not what I would call a constructive dialogue. Give examples. Quote.

My own perception is that I posted a perfectly reasonable text mixing praise and mild criticism of The Heisig Method and qthen uite a few members replying to this first post and follow-ups freaked out. You are many and I am one, so ... :-) I am totally entitled to post my viewpoints here as long as Fabrice doesn't deem them as inappropriate. That's the rules of the game called A Public Forum.

Feel free to offer sensible criticism - with examples of what you are talking about! - and stop the whining. I am sure your toes are a bit tougher than this, aren't they? "Heisig is not God and there might be alternative ways to use his technique" and you guys here sound like the anti-Heisig mob elsewhere. Not a good sign. If you have an interest in sharing his method with more and more people. I do.

KanjiHanzi Wrote:Feel free to offer sensible criticism - with examples of what you are talking about! - and stop the whining. I am sure your toes are a bit tougher than this, aren't they? "Heisig is not God and there might be alternative ways to use his technique" and you guys here sound like the anti-Heisig mob elsewhere. Not a good sign. If you have an interest in sharing his method with more and more people. I do.

Look at this guy here...

This is beyond absurd. He's acting like my sister now (not a complement). She will repeat the same, nonsensical, things over and over in an attempt to get someone angry when she's on the defensive.

Hey. Any of you notice how this guy defaults to talks of dogma and religion, with little-to-no knowledge of how people on this forum actually study?

If he were as interested in introducing people to Heisig as he said he was, wouldn't it make more sense to stop trying to poke people with sticks and actually refine his methods, edit it properly and present it in a more tactful manner?

Bryan_Saxton Wrote:I don't think you've had a true relationship with this forum until you started posting. Think of it in the context of inter-human (相 relations: would you say you have a relationship with a person that you've never talked to? To us, you're still the new guy (even moreso than me) because we don't know you that well.

Well, now you know me a bit even if you still don't like me. Yet. :-)

Of course I can have *A* strong relationship to a forum like this (which is what I wrote), just in the same way I can get a strong emotional attachment to a book, a piece of music, my neighbor walking the dog viewing him/her from my side of the fence. This is of course NOT A TRUE HUMAN relationship, but nevertheless a very significant emotional bond (or whatever) and can be called *A* relationship.

Bryan_Saxton Wrote:While not all of us live in/have lived in the United States, lots of us have. And we're pretty good at recognizing a sales pitch when we see one.

Or are you merely projecting your own kind of world view?

Bryan_Saxton Wrote:This definitely looks like one. I mean, the title of this forum is 'Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub, and at the bottom of every single post is a link to your blog.

Maybe in your 'spoiled pre-net online' days, this was acceptable, but today's internet sees this as a marketing ploy.

Let it be that way, then. You are absolutely free to totally reject anything I post here and avoid "Falling for my sell pitch". I have read tons of messages here in the past and it's very common that people link to stuff they have elsewhere. I see no reason why I can't do the very same even if this happened to be my very first post.

The one and only reason I posted links is that the blog post is way too long to dump here. If it can't be posted here, how could we possibly exchange thoughts about the merits and failings of what I propose if people don't have access to the very source??? Guess what sort of whining there would be if I posted eleven pages of text with images here?!?! I assume that even the mild Fabricius would object loud and clear. And correctly so.

[ファブリス]

KanjiHanzi, I think the problem is your first post contains several bold claims regarding Japanese and Heisig's method. If you criticize a tried and tested method you need to offer something else concrete to validate your points. Right now your blog is a bit confusing and there is little of practical value, and it is made worse because it does indeed sound a bit like advertising. For example you have that huge button to encourage people to join the mailing list, but for what reason?

My point is, you need to put a lot more work into the blog and have something really practical to offer before attracting people otherwise they will get the wrong impression, regardless of what you posted on this forum. Even commercial web apps have to dedicate a lot of energy on creating the perfect home page, because visitors will decide if its worth anything in a matter of seconds.

KanjiHanzi Wrote:How utterly American!, Selling, selling, selling.

Irony, thy name is KanjiHanzi.

This person is getting way more attention than they've earned, just by using some rhetoric and hyperbole to poorly mask their ignorant self-promotion, doing so without any genuine understanding of this forum in terms of what the active and inactive members are doing with their own methods. And such a repulsive writing voice you have, KanjiHanzi. You are clearly not the elder linguistic statesman that you portray yourself to be. I'm filing this thread under 'ignore' alongside the religious debate thread. ;p

Yes, that, my friendd is irony... I'd been a while... I curse you Alanis Morissette

Tobberoth Wrote:BTW, I resent that Toblerone remark! I hear that enough in real life

hehe, I was saving that one for a rainy day.

kazelee Wrote:If you want some quotes, here they are.

Quote:until other evidence appears I am absolutely convinced that JAPANESE IS THE MOST DIFFICULT LANGUAGE IN THE WORLD TO LEARN (for us westerners), and so by a considerable margin.

Quote:Heisig has no or very little faith in our ability to memorize SHAPES and insists on adding a mnemonic STORY to each and every Kanji.

Quote:What I am saying, though, is that I have re-evaluated the need to keep a Iron Curtain behind the Heisig way of learning Kanji and learning other aspects. In particular I am strongly advising against blindly accepting this dogma when it comes to Hanzi,

Excellent! Thanks a lot. That were usful snippets from my post and Iam all ears regarding WHAT'S YOUR OPINION is on these matters, or don't you have any.

Quote:I wish you the best of success in journey.

Thank you. I really appreciate that.

I lost the source, but you wrote that you are merely asking questions? What questions?

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...5#pid36955
No questions.

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...7#pid37027
No questions.

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...2#pid37042
AHHHH! Questions!! Sorry, I missed this message. Will reply.

Quote:From my point of view I was among friends even if we hadn't talked and it felt natural to do what I did.

You were.

Emphasis on were.

I really haven't read any of your posts earlier so I can't say that I miss the loss of friendship. I still maintain my opinion that your attitude is less than polite, but I really don't care that much.

KanjiHanji Wrote:Well, now you know me a bit even if you still don't like me. Yet. :-)

You're absolutely right. NOW you have a relationship. But I think I'd prefer the status of a relatively unknown poster over the overwehlmingly negative relationship you've managed to develop with us over the last few posts.

KanjiHanji Wrote:Of course I can have *A* strong relationship to a forum like this (which is what I wrote), just in the same way I can get a strong emotional attachment to a book, a piece of music, my neighbor walking the dog viewing him/her from my side of the fence. This is of course NOT A TRUE HUMAN relationship, but nevertheless a very significant emotional bond (or whatever) and can be called *A* relationship.

But when interacting with people, this is a very unhealthy relationship. Lurkers are ok on forums (and sometimes, lurking is even encouraged), but lurkers have almost zero initial credibility. As ファブリス has said, you make quite a few criticisms of the RtK method without offering anything substantial to back it up. To make things worse, when you are challenged on the thread, you attack your challengers without offering any sort of defense. You're coming off as antagonistic marketer, which are two labels that you want to avoid at all costs on a forum.

While we are all entitled to our opinions, and you yours, the court of public opinion dominates on the forums (I think it was kazelee who said that perception is everything, and he's 150% right), and in the court of public opinion, you're getting your butt kicked. It's not because of your differing views, but it is because of the manner in which you present them.

KanjiHanzi Wrote:

Bryan_Saxton Wrote:While not all of us live in/have lived in the United States, lots of us have. And we're pretty good at recognizing a sales pitch when we see one.

Or are you merely projecting your own kind of world view?

What do you mean?

I can't imagine that anyone has spent a serious amount of time with Heisig's book without thinking it has some problems, but (and I'm speaking as an academic who is used to wasting his time with tedious academic problems) I can't imagine that I could simultaneously revise his method sufficiently well and learn all of the jouyou kanji in the time it would take to just go through RtK by itself.

From reading your first post, it would seem that the biggest mistake you made was thinking that RtK is a book that you can dip in and out of over a long period of time. I don't think it is, as soon as you stop, even for a few days it seems like a Herculean task to pick it up again. It's just something that needs to get integrated into your life for a relatively short period of time, before you can thank God that you never need to deal with it again.

Personally I think that reading about grammar and alike whilst doing the RtK is a good idea because it will give you an idea of how to read sentences when you are finished, and it gives one something else to do. When Heisig wrote his book, he wanted to put in place a method which he was confident would work for anyone (willing to dedicate the time to it) so in some sense it needed to be dogmatic; if he had have said "hey guys you don't need to follow my method for some kanji, just do it for the ones you want and it will be fine" then you would probably start the book in the wrong frame of mind. By giving just one path to follow he sets you in the right direction and probably expects that people will find their own way after he sets them free in the third section.

My suggestion is to go off, learn Chinese to a standard that you consider "good enough for you" and then, once you have fully understood the method to explain it to the world. I think the reason people like AJATT is that the guy did just that, and then said, "you know what it isn't that had, it just requires dedication; here is what I did, you can do the same."

Bryan_Saxton Wrote:

KanjiHanzi Wrote:

Bryan_Saxton Wrote:While not all of us live in/have lived in the United States, lots of us have. And we're pretty good at recognizing a sales pitch when we see one.

Or are you merely projecting your own kind of world view?

What do you mean?

This person is probably trying to use language he/she doesn't fully understand. This is my guess.

Quote:Excellent! Thanks a lot. That were usful snippets from my post and Iam all ears regarding WHAT'S YOUR OPINION is on these matters, or don't you have any.

These were posted as per your request, remember?

Quote:I really haven't read any of your posts earlier so I can't say that I miss the loss of friendship. I still maintain my opinion that your attitude is less than polite, but I really don't care that much.

From my experience and knowledge, saying you don't care about something is the greatest indicator that you do. This is just my experience and knowledge, though, as I'm sure there are many who disagree.

I was confused by your initial post and I said you were exaggeration while arguing with Tobberoth, forgive me if this was less than polite.

This does not excuse your attitude.

Anyone can make a blog. Providing actual, useful, information is the hard part.

kazelee Wrote:So you're done talking with Mr. Tobberoth. Why not explain things a bit better to the rest of us

I could have done that if people had offered proper questions or hints regarding any confusion. Unfocused whining is not really much to reply to. Despite the fact that I actually did :-)

kazelee Wrote:I skimmed through you site once more. I have better idea of what you're saying now, but I still have some questions.

Is your site about studying Japanese or Chinese? Both?

The main focus is on Chinese characters as used in Mandarin, i.e. will use the simplified versions first and then add the traditional versions as a complement. Since the entire idea is that I think it is perfectly reasonable to learn the language Mandarin while at the same time learning new characters according to the Heisig technique, it's also about the language. I will also review all my Japanese books I have here so there will also be a lot about THAT language.

kazelee Wrote:How far does your knowledge of the Hanzi/Kanji go?

Quite far, I would say. Started with RTK around the years 1999-2000 and have been returning now and then. My main interest is WRITING Kanji/Hanzi. I finished RtK a year ago and have not kept up reviewing very much since then. Merely accepting that the keywords tend to slip away now and then.

To the 2042 Kanji Heisig offered I have added a considerable bunch over the years. I rarely meet a new Kanji in the Japanese texts I read now and then. So it's rather fun to start with Mandarin since there are new and alien characters popping up almost every day :-)

kazelee Wrote:Where are you intending to go with this site?

Nowhere at the moment. Will post on an item-by-item basis for a while and then see what happens.

kazelee Wrote:Why are you not affliated with Japan/Chinesepod? Wouldn't it make sense to get your fair share if you're driving traffic there?

Have no idea. Despite what I see here regarding my web/net experience I have been doing web stuff for almost fifteen years, i.e. right from the very start. I haven't asked JapanesePod101 if I can use their logo in any way - which I can't ake for granted - so the stuff in the first paragraphs was merely a reflection to avoid the people there being pissed-off from a newbie with sales pitch :-))))

kazelee Wrote:Why do you use the word dogma so much? I've been at this site since June, I believe, and I have yet to meet a single person who sticks so rigidly to any one method as to call it dogma. For the most part, people tend to modify whatever methods they come across to suit their own needs.

I use the word dogma because that is what I find among both the most enthusiastic pro-Heisig camp and the anti-Heisig camp. You have been here a mere six months, but I have read so much about Heisig for more years than your months here, including this particular forum as long as it has existed, I think. Just read the reviews over at Amazon and you get a tiny little taste.

I have been very explicit about what I consider to be a dogm in the pro-Heisig camp: to never use his methods outside of the limitations Heisig suggests. Kanji studies first, and everything else later. Follow the strict order from 1 to 2042 or you will not reach Kanji Nirvana. OF COURSE I don't suggest that all Heisig followers have this attitude, but it's still enough common to use the phrase

"A very common dogma among many, many Heisig followers".

Lets act mature, resort to name calling, and call it a day

kazelee Wrote:These were posted as per your request, remember?

No, I don't remember asking for merely a copy what I had already written without any comment on what the objectionable aspect was. I am not THAT interested in seeing what I have posted repeated without any further comments or discussion. People got a bit upset by my post, but it was actually only tobberoth who offered a DISCUSSION, sort of. In the beginning. Almost every other post, apart from your questions which I so regretfully missed, was whining without content.

oregum Wrote:Lets act mature, resort to name calling, and call it a day

Don't worry, KanjiHanzi already called me a "rabid dogmatic" when I'm in fact a perfect example of a person who does NOT follow what he calls the Heisig dogma, learning most of my Japanese way before ever looking in the book Senseless namecalling rocks, it makes you look mature and smart!

oregum Wrote:Lets act mature, resort to name calling, and call it a day

I actually call it a night and jumps off the train (wreck?) until tomorrow. Hopefully a good night's sleep will cheer us all up, won't it? :-)

KanjiHanzi Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:These were posted as per your request, remember?

No, I don't remember asking for merely a copy what I had already written without any comment on what the objectionable aspect was.

Quote:And what statements from me (in the initial post)?? I have tried to make my point very clear, but I can't repeat this endlessly in each and every post, can I? Read what I have posted and then come back with proper examples of this and that.

I think it's you who needs to do the re-reading.

Quote:I actually call it a night and jumps off the train (wreck?) until tomorrow. Hopefully a good night's sleep will cheer us all up, won't it? :-)

According to The Book of Heisig 2:31, yes. Yes it will. LOL.

When we use the verbs "sell" and "promote" here, we do not mean "to exchange for money" (which is what you seem to think we mean).

And regarding the confusion to your method, your first post on this thread was quite long. Your blog posts are also long. I believe that makes it quite confusing and unclear for many of us.

You said that "The message of my blog will become more clear after a few more posts." Good! I think it would be nice if you could explain clearly what your method is, in a way that most of us understand it, before we discuss and comment on it.