KanjiHanzi Wrote:Well, you don't "go through 2000 hanzi". That's my main point here. You learn any new characters as they come (and with RtK 1 in memory they are few) and learn the reading and as many words, sentences you like. I am not studying HANZI. I am learning how to read, write and speak Mandarin. I am very pleased with what I have managed to learn since August or whenever I started full time studies.

This is a more peaceful approach to studies where you don't have to constantly ask How Many Characters Have I/You Learned? The Hanzi I encounter slips through with easy and at the same time I manage to use them in Real Mandarin. Great for me.

It's a peaceful approach that would never work if you hadn't already completed RtK. Why do you think I did RtK1 but not RtK3? Because when you're done with RtK1 you already know the most common kanji and will run into new ones very seldomly. When that happens, simply apply the Heisig technique on them as you go. The reason why you shouldn't do that from the start is because you don't know how to do it, that's what RtK teaches you. Not only that, RtK1 orders them, gives them good keywords, stroke order, good stories... Learning 2000 kanji with the book is a LOT faster than using the technique yourself without the book.

More or less, your whole technique seems to be that if you've done RtK1 and want to learn Chinese, you shouldn't use Remembering the Hanzi, you should use the Heisig technique yourself as you go. I agree, but again, it's not a new technique, tons of people on this forum are actively doing that and has been doing it since we completed RtK1.

mentat_kgs Wrote:Your failure with japanese looks like the same I had in the past: Lack of focus (Look at the kanji of my avatar).

Well, I would consider my doodling around with Japanese as a failure per se. I am very happy with the amount of stuff I have learned by merely having it as a pleasant hobby with no ambition To Really Learn The Language whatsoever. It was only when I decided to become a serious student of Japanese and become fairly fluent that I hit the wall, or to be more precise: I just didn't have the patience to spend more time repeating old stuff than learning new items.

It's nothing more than I wanted to be able to express - duplicate, if you like - sentences that was a piece of cake to MERELY READ. I had Anki full of sentences from various sources and wanted to go from the English translation to Japanese. I would eventually have succeeded, but earlier this year I didn't consider it worth the amount of time it would take.

mentat_kgs Wrote:You seem to have enough motivation and you will succeed as soon as you stop to write huge posts and put your hands on the job.

Hehe. I don't write long posts as a hobby. I have been a visitor to this excellent place on the net for years without writing a single post! This was my first post EVER! :-) :-)

mentat_kgs Wrote:Btw, If I were to go back to past and chose another method to study the kanji, I would not do heisig as it is.

Sigh. My friend Pedro in Portugal used to say "People Don't ***** Read Anymore" and I could possibly agree with him today, of course without the beep-word. I don't need any alternative method to Heisig. SINCE. I. FINISHED. R. t. K. A. YEAR. AGO. I am perfectly satisfied on that front.

mentat_kgs Wrote:I would try the http://drmoviemethod.blogspot.com/

I'm using it after RTK and its concepts are very strong. It reuses Heisigs best ideas, other methods best ideas, combine with newer ideas about mnemonics (the locations) and voila: a supper method.

Yes, I have looked at his site and I agree that it's a very attractive idea, in particular when grouping various readings of characters. Really excellent.

mentat_kgs Wrote:I'm growing fond on chinese lately. It is for the future, but I'll probably study it someday. That time I'll use the movie method, if nothing better comes up.

I am getting more and more fond by the day. First I thought that Mandarin didn't sound at all as nice as spoken Japanese. The more I learn, the more beautiful Mandarin becomes to my ears. Really sweet.

Tobberoth Wrote:It's a peaceful approach that would never work if you hadn't already completed RtK.

Are you REALLY AWARE of what you are saying/writing? What you suggest here is that people will NEVER BE ABLE TO LEARN JAPANESE/CHINESE without first studying according to Heisig!!! What preposterous nonsense! Since there has never been a Remebering the Hanzi until a month ago, there are no westerners who have acquired fluency in any Chinese language?!?! Come on! This is the kind of attitude that REALLY brings a foul smell into the Heisig camp. Wake up.

KanjiHanzi Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:It's a peaceful approach that would never work if you hadn't already completed RtK.

Are you REALLY AWARE of what you are saying/writing? What you suggest here is that people will NEVER BE ABLE TO LEARN JAPANESE/CHINESE without first studying according to Heisig!!! What preposterous nonsense! Since there has never been a Remebering the Hanzi until a month ago, there are no westerners who have acquired fluency in any Chinese language?!?! Come on! This is the kind of attitude that REALLY brings a foul smell into the Heisig camp. Wake up.

That isn't what I said at all, maybe you should learn English before you attempt Japanese and Chinese.

Your technique uses the Heisig building blocks, you've said this several times. My friends who speak Chinese did NOT learn hanzi like that, even though they learned the hanzi as they came up. And you know what? They can't write hanzi from memory. They can read just fine, but they can't write and they easily mix them up. YOU'RE talking about HEISIGS method of learning kanji/hanzi, just not using HEISIGS BOOK. If you hadn't read RtK, you wouldn't have used that technique.

The whole basis of your technique is the Heisig method. How other people learn Chinese is completely irrelevant.

KanjiHanzi Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:It's a peaceful approach that would never work if you hadn't already completed RtK.

Are you REALLY AWARE of what you are saying/writing? What you suggest here is that people will NEVER BE ABLE TO LEARN JAPANESE/CHINESE without first studying according to Heisig!!!

Stretch things much...

I checked your blog. I suggest an editor. I couldn't follow it. Then again, I was reading it at 4am.

[ファブリス]

Hi KanjiHanzi, and welcome. I admire your motivation although I am not sure what exactly is the message that you want to transmit through your blog.

In your first post here, you mention you want to avoid "SRS hell".

But in your comment reply on the first blog post, you say "I learn the Hanzi with pronunciation and as many words/sentences as I find reasonable and run it all in Anki."

So far then I understand the "message" of your blog so to speak, is that one does not have to review only characters but can review readings at the same time?

This isn't a new concept, and has been discussed many times. Nothing wrong about bringing it up again. I haven't had time to read other posts on your blog, but keep in mind that kanji has multiple readings, and multiple meanings.

Personally I say why not, you may review each kanji with just one selected reading and Japanese word for example. I'm not convinced that would hamper the RtK method much.

But overall, the reason why this site sticks to RtK faithfully is that despite all the stories/mnemonic help, you're still looking at 2042 kanji, and that is still a challenge for a lot of people doing this self study in their spare time.

So RtK is a formula that works, as you can later learn and review vocabulary and learn the readings at the same time. The benefit is that knowing the writing then makes this process a lot more streamlined, but I guess that's the whole point of RtK.

Tobberoth Wrote:That isn't what I said at all, maybe you should learn English before you attempt Japanese and Chinese.

Well, I can read enough English to know that it's absolutely useless to enter a discussion with rabid dogmatics. Bye, Tobberoth. End of communication with you.

The Kanji Hanzi Hub
http://kanjihanzi.blogspot.com/

I guess what we all learned from this is, KanjiHanzi "came up" with a technique which is basically using the Heisig method without a book... and anyone who tells him that is nothing new is a "rabid dogmatic".

You know what I'm smelling? A person who can't defend his opinion in a proper argument. First saying Japanese is hard, then saying he will discuss why Japanese is hard "later". First saying that Heisig is dogmatic, that you're not allowed to study at the same time, then proven wrong and puts up no further arguments. Claims to use Heisigs technique of separating kanji into atoms and then learning them using a story, then changing his mind saying it isn't based on Heisig at all.

Why not actually decide what your technique means, then come back and explain it so you can properly explain it instead of simply calling people "dogmatics", something you just pulled from thin air, I haven't said a single dogmatic thing in this whole tread.

KanjiHanzi Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:That isn't what I said at all, maybe you should learn English before you attempt Japanese and Chinese.

Well, I can read enough English to know that it's absolutely useless to enter a discussion with rabid dogmatics. Bye, Tobberoth. End of communication with you.

The Kanji Hanzi Hub
http://kanjihanzi.blogspot.com/

So you're done talking with Mr. Tobberoth. Why not explain things a bit better to the rest of us

I skimmed through you site once more. I have better idea of what you're saying now, but I still have some questions.

Is your site about studying Japanese or Chinese? Both?

How far does your knowledge of the Hanzi/Kanji go?

Where are you intending to go with this site?

Why are you not affliated with Japan/Chinesepod? Wouldn't it make sense to get your fair share if you're driving traffic there?

Why do you use the word dogma so much? I've been at this site since June, I believe, and I have yet to meet a single person who sticks so rigidly to any one method as to call it dogma. For the most part, people tend to modify whatever methods they come across to suit their own needs.

Wow! One has to leave the religion thread to find a real heated debate

LOL What the hell happened here. What a mess. Anyway, thanks for the laugh.

nest0r Wrote:LOL What the hell happened here. What a mess. Anyway, thanks for the laugh.

Agreed. That's exactly what I thought when I first read this thread.

I love how the title of this thread is "Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub." All I can say is that this is one hell of an introduction.

Bryan_Saxton Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:LOL What the hell happened here. What a mess. Anyway, thanks for the laugh.

Agreed. That's exactly what I thought when I first read this thread.

I love how the title of this thread is "Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub." All I can say is that this is one hell of an introduction.

I tried rereading but this just seems like a really tone-deaf sales pitch to me. Glad Toblerone was here to put them in their place, I really can't be bothered to expend that much energy.

For me, it wasn't just tone deaf. It was miserable. You don't go into a forum as a n00b arguing with an established forum member without a proper argument. Besides, forums are places of discussion, not advertising.

Why so serious? O_o

You should treat new members friendly, the more new posters that become regular posters the better That said, even it may be site advertising, but it is a kanji forum, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone was interested, and is probably thankful for it being posted here.

Welcome to the forum

KanjiHanzi Wrote:Confused ... What link? You have to go to the Kanji Hanzi Hub to find a link to the Evil Page where the equally Evil Heisig should be mentioned unless you want to get mobbed out :-)

Ooooooh. I get it now. One should not use the word one so often. It takes one off the defensive when making an argument, but, like any pronoun, can easily confuse one if one uses it too liberally.

Yea, welcome to the forum Kanji Hanzi. I got pounded on with an unpopular view my first post as well. Though I did join a thread already in progress . Consider it a hazing ritual.

Yep, this argument has gone nowhere since I last checked. Btw, KanjiHanzi I still don't know when you are being sarcastic, ironic, or illiterate when you write. And as Kaze pointed out, I also don't understand what your selling. So if you're gonna put your shoe through the door, at least offer some incentive for us to bite.

ファブリス Wrote:Hi KanjiHanzi, and welcome. I admire your motivation although I am not sure what exactly is the message that you want to transmit through your blog.

Hi, and thanks for the welcome! The message of my blog will become more clear after a few more posts.

ファブリス Wrote:In your first post here, you mention you want to avoid "SRS hell".

Yes, I would very much have a function in Anki where one could freeze the process and start at the same spot after a shorter or longer period away from the software. "Hell" is when the cards pile up too fast. Now it was 560 cards after less than tow days with less reviewing!

ファブリス Wrote:But in your comment reply on the first blog post, you say "I learn the Hanzi with pronunciation and as many words/sentences as I find reasonable and run it all in Anki."

Yes, that what I do all the time, but then I have the time to keep the stack low and be able to add new stuff almost every day.

ファブリス Wrote:So far then I understand the "message" of your blog so to speak, is that one does not have to review only characters but can review readings at the same time?

Absolutely correct. I review readings, compounds and a few sentences now and the while I keep on adding more or less new Hanzi. Works like snake oil for me :-)

ファブリス Wrote:This isn't a new concept, and has been discussed many times. Nothing wrong about bringing it up again. I haven't had time to read other posts on your blog, but keep in mind that kanji has multiple readings, and multiple meanings.

Know that. I just haven't found the RtK light thread. I am more than comfortably aware of the fact that Kanji has multiple reading. That's ONE of the aspects making Japanese so difficult to to learn. But there is always - or usually - at least ONE reading that is much more common than the rest of them.

ファブリス Wrote:Personally I say why not, you may review each kanji with just one selected reading and Japanese word for example. I'm not convinced that would hamper the RtK method much.

Neither am I. When it comes to Mandarin I even find that the reading adds an extra "hook" for at least MY memory. And then the correlation between phonetics and character seems to be stronger than in Japanese. If you learn the character QING 青， then you have a good guide to all other characters containing 青, even if there now and then are differences in tone or even a variant of the sound (like JING in this case).

ファブリス Wrote:But overall, the reason why this site sticks to RtK faithfully is that despite all the stories/mnemonic help, you're still looking at 2042 kanji, and that is still a challenge for a lot of people doing this self study in their spare time.

Yes, that's excellent. I have no objections whatever to this basic method. My only idea was to offer an alternative for those willing to try something else, in particular those who have finished RtK1 and want to test their wings on Mandarin.

Keep up the great work!

bodhisamaya Wrote:Yea, welcome to the forum Kanji Hanzi. I got pounded on with an unpopular view my first post as well. Though I did join a thread already in progress . Consider it a hazing ritual.

Yes, this is rather funny, bordering to the hilarious. Obviously one has to expect that nobody cares to check up facts before posting. But here is what I wrote on my most recent blog post, actually only the second on a totally new blog:

The Kanji Hanzi Hub Wrote:This project owes much to James W. Heisig’s “Remembering the Kanji” (RtK). This book could be the Kanji Bible (Koran or whatever) considering the amount of controversy it has created across the Japanese community seen online. There is a very vocal community of Heisig advocates and there is an almost as devoted Anti-Heisig camp, not least among the rather bully folks – some moderators, not the owner - at That Page. Mentioning Heisig there is as close as you get to swearing in the church online :-). It’s a welcome relief to go to the other side of the coin at the Reviewing the Kanji forum http://forum.koohii.com/index.php, . No matter how devoted the members are there, they are at least polite.

Hmmm... It's been almost a year since I was a frequent visitor here - sometimes on a daily basis - and the friendliness mentioned above was all I can remember from that period of time and years back. This has obviously changed considerably so I might have to revise my positive 'review'. A pity, really.

KanjiHanzi Wrote:Hmmm... It's been almost a year since I was a frequent visitor here - sometimes on a daily basis - and the friendliness mentioned above was all I can remember from that period of time and years back. This has obviously changed considerably so I might have to revise my positive 'review'. A pity, really.

There's this thing called a first impression. You are really not making a good one, to me at least. It's not because of your ideas; they're in the spirit of learning and I'm always open to suggestion. It's because of your attitude toward criticism. Criticm's going to happen if you throw out such statements as you have. Instead of trying to make your point more clear you resort to posts like this.

Not only is this unfair on behalf of this forum, it shows poor character on your part. I am more than a bit disappointed in you for this.

oregum Wrote:Yep, this argument has gone nowhere since I last checked. Btw, KanjiHanzi I still don't know when you are being sarcastic, ironic, or illiterate when you write. And as Kaze pointed out, I also don't understand what your selling. So if you're gonna put your shoe through the door, at least offer some incentive for us to bite.

How utterly American!, Selling, selling, selling. Pity this silly European living with the illusion that this was a public forum where you can exchange ideas around Heisig and other other methods learning Kanji, even including Hanzi and Chinese now and then. How utterly stupid of me to expect that there was an open door to SHARING some insights I took the liberty to post on a blog. Will I ever learn how the world REALLY works?

Bite?? Foot in the door?? Obviously its enough to merely wisp a bit with your toe outside the door before getting this kind of aggressive response. See my other message regarding the previous conditions here on the forum. Gone?

KanjiHanzi Wrote:It's been almost a year since I was a frequent visitor here - sometimes on a daily basis - and the friendliness mentioned above was all I can remember from that period of time and years back. This has obviously changed considerably so I might have to revise my positive 'review'. A pity, really.

Members here are polite. You just picked an unwise way to make an introduction. Making your first post a promotion of your system is not the best way.
It was a little confusing for me as well to understand your point.

You may have burned too many bridges by now so maybe just cancel your profile, come back with a new one and list your webite next to your profile name like many others do with a soft sell. Some of the other users here have some really good sites. Mine is just a lame myspace profile but you can learn some interesting things from the others.

kazelee Wrote:

KanjiHanzi Wrote:Hmmm... It's been almost a year since I was a frequent visitor here - sometimes on a daily basis - and the friendliness mentioned above was all I can remember from that period of time and years back. This has obviously changed considerably so I might have to revise my positive 'review'. A pity, really.

There's this thing called a first impression. You are really not making a good one, to me at least. It's not because of your ideas; they're in the spirit of learning and I'm always open to suggestion. It's because of your attitude toward criticism. Criticm's going to happen if you throw out such statements as you have. Instead of trying to make your point more clear you resort to posts like this.

Not only is this unfair on behalf of this forum, it shows poor character on your part. I am more than a bit disappointed in you for this.

Well... that's a real pity. Your disappointment, I mean. First I quote my praise and then I am merely referring to the reception I have received from you and a few other members in this particular thread ..... Fabrice was the same gentleman as I have experienced him for many years. I should have been more careful in saying "this forum" since I have not read so very much posts here lately. Consider my replies offered to those less than nice responses I had as a sample.

I am all ears if I get some sensible critique of where I was offensive in my very first post to this forum. I was also very interested in a constructive discussion of what I posted, NOT some dogmatic trivia about how to use and not use the Heisig TECHNIQUE or METHOD, if you prefer that label. We are not discussing some theological nuances of the Holy Scripture, are we?

kazelee Wrote:It's because of your attitude toward criticism. Criticm's going to happen if you throw out such statements as you have. Instead of trying to make your point more clear you resort to posts like this.

What criticism?? I have not seen any. And what statements from me (in the initial post)?? I have tried to make my point very clear, but I can't repeat this endlessly in each and every post, can I? Read what I have posted and then come back with proper examples of this and that. Quote. Don't merely ramble without any kind of reference to what you are hinting at. Quote!

Kanji Hanzi
http://kanjihanzi.blogspot.com/

bodhisamaya Wrote:Members here are polite.

That was my impression up till today.

bodhisamaya Wrote:You just picked an unwise way to make an introduction. Making your first post a promotion of your system is not the best way.

I have had a LONG relationship to this forum, even if I haven't posted. I have never ever seen any hint of rules for How To Present Yourself. From my point of view I was among friends even if we hadn't talked and it felt natural to do what I did.

""""a promotion of your system"""

Selling, selling, selling. Promotion, promotion. Same track. Same view of the world as nothing but a Business Machine. Well it isn't. I am spoiled with hte pre-net online world on CompuServe (and much less America Online) where people did this kind of sharing of ideas and experiences all the time without being labeled as some cheap salesmen.

It was a little confusing for me as well to understand your point.

bodhisamaya Wrote:You may have burned to many bridges by now so just cancel your profile, come back with a new one and list your webite next to your profile name like many others do with a soft sell. Some of the other users here have some really good sites. Mine is just a lame myspace profile but you can learn some interesting things from the others.

Come, come, come. This is getting more and more silly. I have no intention whatsoever to follow such a suggestion. I simply refuse to comply to a very restricted world view where you can't open your mouth without adding a price tag on your tongue. Soft sell? Hard sell? Sharing! There is no price tag on my posts and not on my blog. Yet :-)

To repeat myself in absurdum: Yes, People here have a lot of useful information and the entire web site - including the proper Kanji study section has been extremely helpful for me a LOOONG time. That's what I think I said on the very first line of my very post here: thanks!