@Ahibba: Haha, not really. It's a comforting notion, but the reason I'm a deist is really only a personal one. I abandoned Christianity and all hope for any other religion that claims "divine revelation," but I still *want* to believe in God (perhaps because of being raised with the belief). You know? I'll never push my belief on another person, but it is...a personally comforting notion. And, since it's an at least defensible thesis, hey, why the hell not?

Igor,
Don't try to form new concrete opinions too quickly. When I left Fundamentalist Christianity years ago as a teenager, I went through many years of severe depression. There is comfort in believing that if one follows certain well defined rules that a big Father figure will take care for us forever. When that is taken away through personal investigation, it creates a big scary void. It is especially difficult going it alone without the support of family and when everyone around believes as you once did. It takes courage to wander into the unknown and also an open mind not to judge those still involved in what one personally rejects. Keep the positive influences from the religion as a foundation in the pursuit of what is reality.

igordesu Wrote:It's a comforting notion, but the reason I'm a deist is really only a personal one.... but I still *want* to believe in God

Don't worry, according to Dr. Justin Barrett, it is a natural thing.

Dr. Barrett, senior researcher and acting director of the University of Oxford’s Centre for Anthropology and Mind, is a lecturer in Oxford’s Institute of Cognitive and Evolutionary Anthropology.

Quote:He says that young children have faith even when they have not been taught about it by family or at school, and argues that even those raised alone on a desert island would come to believe in God.

"The preponderance of scientific evidence for the past 10 years or so has shown that a lot more seems to be built into the natural development of children's minds than we once thought, including a predisposition to see the natural world as designed and purposeful and that some kind of intelligent being is behind that purpose," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

Quote:In a lecture to be given at the University of Cambridge's Faraday Institute on Tuesday, Dr Barrett will cite psychological experiments carried out on children that he says show they instinctively believe that almost everything has been designed with a specific purpose.

Quote:Another experiment on 12-month-old babies suggested that they were surprised by a film in which a rolling ball apparently created a neat stack of blocks from a disordered heap.

Dr Barrett said there is evidence that even by the age of four, children understand that although some objects are made by humans, the natural world is different.

He also claimed anthropologists have found that in some cultures children believe in God even when religious teachings are withheld from them.

Antony Flew wrote:

"When I first met the big-bang theory as an atheist, it seemed to me the theory made a big difference because it suggested that the universe had a beginning and that the first sentence in Genesis ("In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth") was related to an event in the universe. As long as the universe could be comfortably thought to be not only without end but also without beginning, it remained easy to see its existence (and its most fundamental features) as brute facts. And if there had been no reason to think the universe had a beginning, there would be no need to postulate something else that produced the whole thing.

But the big-bang theory changed all that. If the universe had a beginning, it became entirely sensible, almost inevitable, to ask what produced this beginning. This radically altered the situation.

Atheistic scientists have attempted to avoid the theistic implications of the big-bang. A number of escape routes have been tried. Stephen Hawking evokes the concept of "imaginary time." Richard Dawkins and others posit the idea of multiple universes (the idea being that our universe was the product, perhaps through "vacuum fluctuation", of other pre-existing universes.)

Flew regards the postulation of multiple universes as "a truly desperate alternative." He writes: "If the existence of one universe requires an explanation, multiple universes require a much bigger explanation: the problem is increased by the factor of whatever the total number of universes is." Then he adds, a little impishly, "it seems a little like the case of a schoolboy whose teacher doesn’t believe his dog ate his homework, so he replaces the first version with the story that a pack of dogs – too many to count – ate his homework."

bodhisamaya Wrote:Igor,
Don't try to form new concrete opinions too quickly. When I left Fundamentalist Christianity years ago as a teenager, I went through many years of severe depression. There is comfort in believing that if one follows certain well defined rules that a big Father figure will take care for us forever. When that is taken away through personal investigation, it creates a big scary void. It is especially difficult going it alone without the support of family and when everyone around believes as you once did. It takes courage to wander into the unknown and also an open mind not to judge those still involved in what one personally rejects. Keep the positive influences from the religion as a foundation in the pursuit of what is reality.

I will try to avoid forming new "concrete opinions" too early, but don't worry. Since my life is no longer ruled by superstition, but by reason, I am open to any ideas.

And dude. I know what you mean about the depression.

Holy.

Crap.

I come away from a worldview that claimed to have "all the answers" and "know everything," and now, it sucks not knowing everything. To be quite honest, I feel as though I've just come off of some huge cosmic "high" and am now experiencing the worst of all hangovers. Wow. And on top of all that, the recent death of my great grandmother (who was like a parent to me my whole life) compounded with this feeling of wtf-is-happening-ness is nearly killing me (don't worry, I'm not literally suicidal).

And I am still going to take the positive stuff from Christianity to help me form my new worldview.

ahibba Wrote:

igordesu Wrote:It's a comforting notion, but the reason I'm a deist is really only a personal one.... but I still *want* to believe in God

Don't worry, according to Dr. Justin Barrett, it is a natural thing.

Dr. Barrett, senior researcher and acting director of the University of Oxford’s Centre for Anthropology and Mind, is a lecturer in Oxford’s Institute of Cognitive and Evolutionary Anthropology.

Quote:He says that young children have faith even when they have not been taught about it by family or at school, and argues that even those raised alone on a desert island would come to believe in God.

"The preponderance of scientific evidence for the past 10 years or so has shown that a lot more seems to be built into the natural development of children's minds than we once thought, including a predisposition to see the natural world as designed and purposeful and that some kind of intelligent being is behind that purpose," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

Quote:In a lecture to be given at the University of Cambridge's Faraday Institute on Tuesday, Dr Barrett will cite psychological experiments carried out on children that he says show they instinctively believe that almost everything has been designed with a specific purpose.

Quote:Another experiment on 12-month-old babies suggested that they were surprised by a film in which a rolling ball apparently created a neat stack of blocks from a disordered heap.

Dr Barrett said there is evidence that even by the age of four, children understand that although some objects are made by humans, the natural world is different.

He also claimed anthropologists have found that in some cultures children believe in God even when religious teachings are withheld from them.

That is very, very comforting. Thank you. I'm glad that I'm not the only one

Ahibba: Are you posting these links because you agree with them and wish to share them, or simply because you find them interesting? In other words, what are your thoughts on your links?

The Big Bang theory doesn't assume that something came from nothing. The entire universe is believed to have been compacted into extremely small, extremely dense matter preceded by an infinite series of Big Bangs and Big Crunches.

"Dr Barrett said there is evidence that even by the age of four, children understand that although some objects are made by humans, the natural world is different."

I am not sure why people consider things created by humans as outside the natural world.

igordesu Wrote:

bodhisamaya Wrote:Igor,
Don't try to form new concrete opinions too quickly. When I left Fundamentalist Christianity years ago as a teenager, I went through many years of severe depression. There is comfort in believing that if one follows certain well defined rules that a big Father figure will take care for us forever. When that is taken away through personal investigation, it creates a big scary void. It is especially difficult going it alone without the support of family and when everyone around believes as you once did. It takes courage to wander into the unknown and also an open mind not to judge those still involved in what one personally rejects. Keep the positive influences from the religion as a foundation in the pursuit of what is reality.

I will try to avoid forming new "concrete opinions" too early, but don't worry. Since my life is no longer ruled by superstition, but by reason, I am open to any ideas.

And dude. I know what you mean about the depression.

Holy.

Crap.

I come away from a worldview that claimed to have "all the answers" and "know everything," and now, it sucks not knowing everything. To be quite honest, I feel as though I've just come off of some huge cosmic "high" and am now experiencing the worst of all hangovers. Wow. And on top of all that, the recent death of my great grandmother (who was like a parent to me my whole life) compounded with this feeling of wtf-is-happening-ness is nearly killing me (don't worry, I'm not literally suicidal).

And I am still going to take the positive stuff from Christianity to help me form my new worldview.

Umm okay, definitely ignore my recommendation for Meillassoux, then. Avoid Ray Brassier while you're at it. ^_^ I still think anyone looking for an open-minded refresher on intelligent, flexible religiosity ought to read Rushkoff's Nothing Sacred, however (his focus there is on Judaism, but is easily extrapolated.) Oops, just reminded myself to read some Karen Armstrong.

Let's face it... all the evidence for the big bang was planted by his noodly appendage, to test our faith, or mess with our brains.

A really good post IceCream.

Many people would argue that the basis for our morality comes from religion, however. That we are naturally selfish beings that will do things in our own interest first. Put a bunch of very young children together with a box of toys and you won't likely see sharing, you'll see hording "mine! mine!" Most of the religions teach something along the lines of the "golden rule" - without these teachings, even if we eventually turn away from them in the future- would we still think and act the same? That doing "good" is the "best" way to live?

Thoughts on that subject?

I don't know, having the kind of media ecology that nurtures independent thinking is valuable in many ways. Of course, the trick is to find those who want to discuss how to fish, and be wary of those offering to catch fish for you, as it were.

Also, it's worthwhile to learn to comprehend and transcend the lenses through which others view the world, as one is surrounded by impositions that won't go away simply by shutting one's ears. Learn instead to listen on many levels. Lots of metaphors here. ;p

IceCream Wrote:haha i promised myself i wouldn't comment in this thread, but...

IceCream Wrote:hehe sorry for the super long post.

See why abstinence only programs don't work? When one finally does give in to temptation... Woh Boy!

ruiner Wrote:Ahibba: Are you posting these links because you agree with them and wish to share them, or simply because you find them interesting? In other words, what are your thoughts on your links?

Actually, I found them interesting and wanted to share them.

I know that you are a strong atheist, but:

***

Quote:The entire universe is believed to have been compacted into extremely small, extremely dense matter preceded by an infinite series of Big Bangs and Big Crunches.

"I did not make them witnesses of the creation of the heavens and the earth, nor of the creation of their own souls" - God

***

Quote:Let's face it... all the evidence for the big bang was planted by his noodly appendage, to test our faith, or mess with our brains.

"Have you noted the one whose god is his ego? Consequently, God sends him astray, despite his knowledge, seals his hearing and his mind, and places a veil on his eyes. Who then can guide him, after such a decision by God Would you not take heed?

They say: there is nothing but our life in this world; we live and die and nothing destroys us but time. But they have no knowledge of that; they merely conjecture." - God

"Among the people there is the one who argues about God without knowledge, and without guidance, and without an enlightening scripture." - God

***

"I know God of Heaven loves men dearly not without reason. God of Heaven ordered the sun, the moon, and the stars to enlighten and guide them. God of Heaven ordained the four seasons, Spring, Autumn, Winter, and Summer, to regulate them. God of Heaven sent down snow, frost, rain, and dew to grow the five grains and flax and silk that so the people could use and enjoy them. God of Heaven established the hills and rivers, ravines and valleys, and arranged many things to minister to man's good or bring him evil. He appointed the dukes and lords to reward the virtuous and punish the wicked, and to gather metal and wood, birds and beasts, and to engage in cultivating the five grains and flax and silk to provide for the people's food and clothing. This has been so from antiquity to the present." - Mozi

ahibba Wrote:

ruiner Wrote:Ahibba: Are you posting these links because you agree with them and wish to share them, or simply because you find them interesting? In other words, what are your thoughts on your links?

Actually, I found them interesting and wanted to share them.

I know that you are a strong atheist, but:

***

Actually, I believe in Hyper-Chaos, in the absolute contingency of everything! I've been converted by After Finitude's impeccable argument for speculative materialism. Of course, I fully intend to pervert Meillassoux's ideas for my own ends, but hey that's what I do.

ahibba Wrote:"Among the people there is the one who argues about God without knowledge, and without guidance, and without an enlightening scripture." - God

Depending on who or what we define God as, I might take credit for that quote.

IceCream- interesting thoughts- I guess one of my points was also- if religion had never developed, would we have a similar morality- doing "good?"

Or is it impossible for religion -not to- develop- that is, man has this void, that needs filling and explaining. Religion is created to fill that void?

Is it for comfort? Is it for control? Is it because there really is a higher being?

also, could you expand a bit more on:

Quote:I don't know why adults do such harsh things, actually. i dont get it. i used to think that all actions like that were explainable with some other means, but i dont really think so any more

What changed your mind?

IceCream Wrote:I think it's unquestionable that we would. As long as a human has the capacity to view other beings as other beings, the distinctions between good and bad and right and wrong would appear.

I don't think it's unquestionable, else I wouldn't question it Look at some of the horrible things human beings have done in the name of "right"- couldn't a different form of "right" have developed in the absence of religion. For example- right now it is "wrong" to sleep with someone else's mate- perhaps in the absence of religion polygamy would be completely acceptable. Maybe sex wouldn't have been based on whether a couple is together or not- maybe it's like going out to coffee with a friend (bodhi- are you eating this up?). I mean, slavery existed (and exists) even with the presence of religion- clearly human beings are able to see each other as less than... human beings.

Quote:I think that religion, and religious feelings about morality can be seen as a result and a reflection of that basic part of us, rather than the cause. Certainly i think it develops that instinct, puts it into words, and allows us to think consciously more often about it than we might have done without it. But, on the whole, i think these thoughts would have developed regardless of religion.

I'm unsure- my viewpoint is that there is something within us that reaches out to... the divine. My gut and experience points towards a creator/caretaker- though I doubt we've properly defined... It. Sometimes I think this creator is reaching out as best as it can- which is why we see so many different religions and interpretations.

Quote:I think part of this, even people who are religious can agree with. In Christianity, for example, the ability to make moral choices was given to us by God, and the bible there to help show us how to guide our intuitions and choices. So, even for christians, moral choice and ability to understand right and wrong must have existed before any teaching on it.

Good point- the 10 commandments were developed well after modern civilization began. However, I think there was other tradition, laws and teachings that were passed down through Judaism (like teachings in the earlier books of the Bible)- mostly through words of mouth. I'm not sure when all of that developed.

I'm not sure what morality would look like now- or even if it is possible for us to have a human society without religion developing. So this might not even be something worth arguing. To me it seems a little bit silly to totally discard religion, when it has undoubtedly helped get us to where we are now. Perhaps it should be viewed a bit more like religion is viewed in Japan- respected, but maybe not a central pillar to life.

I'm not really reading this thread, so I don't know why the Antony Flew page was posted, but I just thought I'd comment and say that I think it's pretty silly. It says things like,

"For atheists, this shift in Flew’s beliefs is highly embarrassing. To have such a prominent atheist accept the case for God’s existence is a major blow."

Really?

captal Wrote:A really good post IceCream.

Many people would argue that the basis for our morality comes from religion, however. That we are naturally selfish beings that will do things in our own interest first. Put a bunch of very young children together with a box of toys and you won't likely see sharing, you'll see hording "mine! mine!" Most of the religions teach something along the lines of the "golden rule" - without these teachings, even if we eventually turn away from them in the future- would we still think and act the same? That doing "good" is the "best" way to live?

Thoughts on that subject?

I think there is a natural basis for morality outside of religion, and even outside of our consciences.

Think about it. We could all act totally selfish and do whatever we want, squashing everybody that gets in our way. But is that really fulfilling? I mean, just by nature of the fact that we know our lives will end one day, that sounds like the reverse of fulfilling. The words of the Biblical book of Ecclesiastes ring very true no matter what philosophy about God/religion you follow. Vanity, vanity. All is vanity.

As far as we know, we have one life, with no promise of an afterlife. There might be a reality/God beyond this universe, perhaps not. Do we want to waste this one life being friggin' tards and trying to amass as much junk as we can? Seriously? It doesn't take a genius to figure this one out

Tzadeck Wrote:I'm not really reading this thread, so I don't know why the Antony Flew page was posted, but I just thought I'd comment and say that I think it's pretty silly. It says things like,

"For atheists, this shift in Flew’s beliefs is highly embarrassing. To have such a prominent atheist accept the case for God’s existence is a major blow."

Really?

I know, I laughed at that too. Damn it, mark it down on the scoreboard, the Team took a big hit today. How will the PR department handle this one?? Should've had the bastid killed first.

@captal - Is what you believe essentially a form of the 'argument from morality'? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_morality)

Personally, I'm more interested in cultural evolution from a relativistic perspective. (Though I'm not on the same page as Dawkins and others when it comes to memes/evolutionary psychology, et cetera).

I just came back to the forums briefly to wish everyone a merry Christmas and ended up catching up on most of the last few months of this thread. Wow . . . I hardly know where to begin, which probably means I shouldn't, but here I go anyway . . .

Igordesu, the church you were part of wasn't the most representative example of Christianity. I hope you look around a bit before rejecting all of Christianity based on one, somewhat extreme, fundamentalist group. Some of the reasons you mentioned for losing your faith are the same reasons that I am no longer Protestant.

I'm sorry to hear that your grandmother died. It sounds like you were very close. You can't hold yourself responsible for the fate of her soul, and I don't think you can know exactly, either. If God is all knowing, then He already knows what a good person your grandmother was, and if He is all powerful and all good, then we can trust this to Him. It's at least possible that all the good you saw your grandmother do -- living the beatitudes -- testified to a faith that she lived but could not or did not express in words.

Here's a little link comparing Protestant and Catholic ideas of salvation: faith alone vs. faith & works. There are lots of pages like this; I just picked this one because it sticks fairly close to scripture references. http://thiscatholicjourney.com/2006/11/s...works.html This doesn't address the question of the person with good works and no faith, but it's one place to start thinking about that . . . and one other thing to think about regarding your grandmother's situation is the possibility of "anonymous Christians": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_Christian

May all of you -- no matter what you think about the holiday -- have joy, peace, love and much kanji knowledge this Christmas.

Today is the day we celebrate a virgin giving birth...
I hope my donations to the fertility clinic have made those lesbians happy.

Most have probably already seen this but...
Christmas in Japan