@ Fabrice

Perhaps you should consider revising the rules for the forum if you are going to shut down threads for being off topic or for failing to stick to Japanese subject matter.

I mention this because this is the second time in a few months that you have shut down threads in the "community" section where the subtitle is "chat to your hearts content." I always took that to mean that off-topic discussions and tangents were allowed there.

Yeah, I was kinda surprised, too. I guess I understand why the thread was shut down, but...I don't know. I got the feeling that we were all kind of enjoying that heated debate.

And, BTW, no hard feelings or anything. I really was just having fun with that.

@Nestor

No, I wanted to say it in public. This is feedback after all.

As far as what "competition" and "animosity" mean, I guess I want to see how Fabrice defines them. At least 60 percent of my time here is spent debating which is a form of competition. (Actually I dont really consider it true competition but some people might) Debating helps me and it
might help others too. If debating isn't really allowed here, it doesn't make much sense for me to stick around.

@Igor

Me too. I certainly didn't feel any animosity towards you and I was beginning to understand some of your points.

Ah good. Iqordesu! I tried to email you but your email is set to private. The debate was fun. In Hawaii all religions are a minority and dialogue is common so there are really no hard edges to debate. Only minor differences in interpretation. Having grown up in the Bible Belt I understand the sincere goal of wanting to save the whole world. If your view were correct then it would indeed be the compassionate thing to do. I just disagree with the the theory that leads one to that accept that view

Ha. I just thought of something. If Fabrice would agree, we could just have a thread in the community section designated for religious matter debating. That way we wouldn't soil the other threads with our squabbles, lol...I got the feeling the other people were getting sick of the off-topicness. Oh well, I wasn't....

There we go. My email is no longer private.

I do understand why Fabrice did it. Debates over controversial issues almost always turn ugly and break down into name calling. Go look at Gaijinpot.com to see examples. But the maturity level here is much higher than most forums. People here seem less interested in winning a debate at all costs. The true purpose of a debate afterall is not to win it but to understand the others view, compare ideas and draw the closest possible conclusion into what is accurate. If I successfully argue that the Earth is flat due to my ability to persuade, then we both lose the debate.

"If I successfully argue that the Earth is flat due to my ability to persuade, then we both lose the debate." ROFL...that's awesome.

Yeah, and it's not like it was COMPLETELY off topic. I mean, it started out as a random tangent convo related to Christianity/religion in relationship to Japan. Not COMPLETELY, lol...

bodhisamaya Wrote:I do understand why Fabrice did it. Debates over controversial issues almost always turn ugly and break down into name calling. Go look at Gaijinpot.com to see examples. But the maturity level here is much higher than most forums. People here seem less interested in winning a debate at all costs. The true purpose of a debate afterall is not to win it but to understand the others view, compare ideas and draw the closest possible conclusion into what is accurate. If I successfully argue that the Earth is flat due to my ability to persuade, then we both lose the debate.

I think I understand why too. I also agree that the overall level of maturity here is remarkable. IMO, most of the even controversial topics do not lead to name-calling (on this forum) and so I think the closures are a bit unwarranted until something like that actually does happen. In general, people here seem to be able to police themselves pretty well so far and it seems a little condescending to close down threads prematurely. I feel a little bit like a toddler being swatted and told to stay on task.

[ファブリス]

Dragg Wrote:I mention this because this is the second time in a few months that you have shut down threads in the "community" section where the subtitle is "chat to your hearts content." I always took that to mean that off-topic discussions and tangents were allowed there.

Fair enough. I'll reopen the thread seeing as it is in the Community sub forum.

What previous topic did I close in the Community forum?

Dragg Wrote:I think I understand why too. I also agree that the overall level of maturity here is remarkable. IMO, most of the even controversial topics do not lead to name-calling (on this forum) and so I think the closures are a bit unwarranted until something like that actually does happen. In general, people here seem to be able to police themselves pretty well so far and it seems a little condescending to close down threads prematurely. I feel a little bit like a toddler being swatted and told to stay on task.

Perhaps it has a lot to do with the common goal, our remaining... civil. I mean, never have I seen, on the internet, such a dedication to a single goal as on this site; excluding hate sites that is. Strangly, even after gaining tremendous knowledge in this language, many still remain humble.

nest0r Wrote:I personally don't care what passive-aggressive evangelism or superficial exegeses the Japanese learners decide to bicker about here within the limitations of a forum (half-hearted arguments, patting oneself on the back, quick Googlings for research, etc.), I just wish you wouldn't keep using a thread with unrelated romaji in the title. Name the thread 'Religion 101' or something so the rest of us can ignore it more easily. ;p

Shall we?

Threads that go off topic seem to be a result of someone disagreeing with a single point that branches out to unrelated things to support that opinion. Igordesu started a thread on Why I study Nihongo. It got sidetracked because his reason was religion based.

Another thread got sidetracked by military debates that originally began with the Fish market being closed to foreigners and the reasons why. How much can you say about a fish market being closed?

How do you stop this? Should it be stopped? It seems if the original topic was exciting enough it would have never veered off. The original topic is still always at the top of the page for those who wish to return.

nest0r Wrote:I personally don't care what passive-aggressive evangelism or superficial exegeses the Japanese learners decide to bicker about here within the limitations of a forum (half-hearted arguments, patting oneself on the back, quick Googlings for research, etc.), I just wish you wouldn't keep using a thread with unrelated romaji in the title. Name the thread 'Religion 101' or something so the rest of us can ignore it more easily. It's purely a selfish and superficial reason, I admit, but hey, I'm not as humble and open-minded as the rest of you. ;p

I understand your point. I see how it could be mildly annoying to open up a thread with one title only to find primarily a completely unrelated subject instead. I'll try to be more mindful of this in the future.

As an aside, the other problem I will admit to regarding controversial subjects is their tendency to monopolize the seven-most-recent-posts section on the header of the forum. Also, some have an uncanny ability to resurrect themselves after a long dormant period only to argue the same points into infinity. (The "perverted stories thread comes to mind.)

The only reason I mentioned this "religion" thread is because I got the sense that it was going to peak out and dwindle down into closure on it's own. I understand that it is sometimes a difficult decision to weigh whether or not (or when) a thread should be closed down or if at all.

@Fabrice

The other thread was about a "racism in Tokyo" joke video that morphed into a serious discussion. I understand better why you closed down that one. For one, the provocative title alone would have made it one of those infinite threads where people repeat themselves and get edgy.

Thanks for the understanding, and I know that you are trying to do what you think is best for the WHOLE community, which isn't always easy or clear cut.

I actually apologize as it was mainly me who decided to respond but when it comes to some things, and being it was in the community forum, I just can't help myself lol.

And there is definitely no hard feelings against any individuals. I'm not going to lie and say I'm not passionate about the subject, being as I was a former Christian that truly had a life changing experience once I rejected it, but I will always do my best to remain civil towards the actual individual. The beliefs on the other hand are fair game for a bit of name poking. As the saying goes: "it is your God that I have a problem with, not you".

And I agree that we should just make another thread about this subject if we want to continue.

Excellent. May I do the honors of creating the new thread?

I don't understand why that thread exists. There are plenty, of other forums on the internet dedicated to this sort of discussion? It's just like trying to add a Quantum Entanglement paper among a stack of papers written optimum about mouse sensitivity for games, im talking out of my ass here, but the thread is stupid.

Plenty of other dedicated forums i visit on Classical Guitar, electronics and what not do not have these sort of threads because they are stupid and waste time. Users like dragg and igor come up time to time having a cry about no 'general' section, admins tell them to ***** off to a dedicated forum.

That might be true on an ordinary language forum. The creator of RTK, James Heisig, is a philosopher who specializes in the field of philosophy of religion at Nanzan Social and Religious Research Institute. The RTK system itself was most likely inspired by his understanding of how powerful a tool story telling with imaginative memory is as it has been practiced within the myths of the world's religions for thousands of years.

Quote:I don't understand why that thread exists. There are plenty, of other forums on the internet dedicated to this sort of discussion? It's just like trying to add a Quantum Entanglement paper among a stack of papers written optimum about mouse sensitivity for games, im talking out of my ass here, but the thread is stupid.

Plenty of other dedicated forums i visit on Classical Guitar, electronics and what not do not have these sort of threads because they are stupid and waste time. Users like dragg and igor come up time to time having a cry about no 'general' section, admins tell them to **** off to a dedicated forum.

Then where on earth would I post my half random-half insightful interjections?

Threads like that thread actually provide me with a plethora of information, and give a broader view of image that make up those little names and avatars in the corner. It's actually quite simple to ignore such a thread if the content doesn't suit one's taste.

In principle I agree with liosama, but if people insist on having those kinds of "debates" discussions then I think they should start a new thread straight off rather than disruptively throwing an existing thread (e.g. obama teaches Japanese) completely off track.

[ファブリス]

@bodhisamaya : honestly I don't think that's really relevant to the issue of allowing political or religious debates on this forum.

@liosama : I see your point and maybe I need to be more strict. Personally I think that approach would have been fine too. I'm just wary of my own ego and try not to fall into the trap of moderating a forum into something that _I_ believe would be best (edit: of course I can't help doing that to some extent, but you get the idea...). So here I'm making a compromise, allowing such discussions in the Community forum alone.

This compromise is just ongoing development. If it turns out to be a bad idea, then I'll have to make some more explicit forum rules which exclude political and religious debates in here.

I made that compromise in the first place because most people here tend to be educated or at least polite, this may be a reason why many forums have to ban such topics. That said if there's one thing that can get people in flames regardless of their education it must be religious and political debates ;-)

It's your site, I say do whatever you want. I'm sure the people who use this site most are those whose egos are most similar to yours. I could care less if, say, Dragg leaves this forum because he can't talk about Christianity or igordesu runs off elsewhere to call people baby-killers. Now that I've had a thread derailed by this off-topic BS, I can more fully appreciate a blanket 'no politics/religion' rule.

Edit: But I guess it goes back to how much trouble it would be to moderate a generally self-moderating forum. Personally, it kind of creeps me out how polite people are when they're really saying 'I think your beliefs cause immeasurable suffering, hey, let's talk about anime now'. Something's wrong with this forum, it's too polite. ;p

nest0r Wrote:Personally, it kind of creeps me out how polite people are when they're really saying 'I think your beliefs cause immeasurable suffering, hey, let's talk about anime now'. Something's wrong with this forum, it's too polite. ;p

Well, the constraints of the internet make it hard to simply go and set you on fire. Shounen anime seems like a decent substitute for inflicting misery and possibly death.

The obvious solution is to make it so if you want to yell at someone about their beliefs, you have to do it in Japanese. Everybody wins.

Is it possible to just delete those comments that were off topic so it doesn't have to be closed?

Mcjon01 Wrote:The obvious solution is to make it so if you want to yell at someone about their beliefs, you have to do it in Japanese. Everybody wins.

馬鹿!