I miss the good ole days when people just bared their teeth and torched one another openly, instead of repressing it. C'mon, we all know everyone reads that off-topic thread and the feelings transfer to other threads. Oh you can pretend, but that's like pretending you don't masturbate. Which actually, people were pretty open about in that other thread.

Bodhi, I think deleting those comments and stuff would be too much trouble, and it's something Fabrice shouldn't have to bother with. I guess from now on if I want to talk about learning Japanese, I'll have to excise any kind of fuel for fundamentalist rants. ^_- "So-and-so teaches Japanese... for various reasons that Tobberoth is unable to compute, Japanese people are buying a book of __'s speeches for learning English."

Anyway, I've gone around LeechBlock to post here once too often, taking another break.

@ Fabrice:

I apologize if my comments seemed off-topic. I was under the genuine impression that the creator of the thread was inviting debate and opinion-giving. Fabrice, you say my opinions had no place in that thread? Why is that? They're not as good as everybody else's? You don't agree with them? As I recall, the creator of the topic accused the "Bush *regime*" of *crimes*. What crimes? And he calls my claims “off-topic BS”. FABRICE! He derailed his own topic before he even finished the first post! What are you thinking? How are my claims “off-topic BS” and his not?!! I'm not here to debate whether or not Bush did a good job and what he did or didn't do (and don't get me wrong, I am certainly not a Bush evangelist). If that's not opinionated, then I don't know what the heck is. At least I was specific in pinpointing certain issues (as sarcastic as my remarks may have been). Going by your logic, Fabrice, you should have closed off that topic before I added my opinion.

But that's okay. I know what you're thinking. Ah. It's okay, everybody's kind of liberal here anyways. Everybody *knows* that Bush was a wacko. Well, you know what? I appreciate that he protected America from Terrorist attacks after 9/11 and liberated the iraqis from an oppressive regime. Is that a bit opinionated? If it's too opinionated for you because other people don't agree with it, then I apologize.

But that's okay, "my opinion" clearly isn't welcome (especially in threads like that). I apologize if my opinion is clearly not as valued as other people's opinion. If that's the way you plan to "run" this forum, Fabrice, then I'm done. The fact that you've closed down a discussion because I distastefully (yet specifically) expressed an opinion that was contrary to a different opinion expressed earlier in the thread, then I will no longer participate in this forum (remember, you said specifically that my opinion had no place; you never said anything about the way that I said it).

And anyways, this forum is in English and quite terrible for a Japanese immersion environment. I mean, I had to "divorce" it sooner or later.

igordesu Wrote:As I recall, the creator of the topic accused the "Bush *regime*" of *crimes*. What crimes? And he calls my claims “off-topic BS”. FABRICE! He derailed his own topic before he even finished the first post! What are you thinking? How are my claims “off-topic BS” and his not?!!

All he did was quote the website he linked to, to give an idea of what it was talking about. You know, because it's rude to just post a straight link. I assume he chose the section about English learning since it's relevant to this website. That it happened to contain the blog writer's opinions is to be expected, I guess, but you can't rightly accuse nest0r of being off-topic. That was all you, with the yelling about really quite ridiculous things. <_<

No, Nestor specifically accused the "Bush regime" of "crimes". That is completely off of the topic of Japanese materials in the form of Obama's speeches.

Did you look at the link? Did you see how, in fact, nest0r didn't accuse anyone of anything, and that was just copypasta'd from the website? Are we really going to condemn people for other people's words?

Nestor did not have an ending quotation mark. Therefore, it was completely unclear whether or not he was expressing his own opinion or someone else's. And anyways, that is irrelevant. The opinion that he was expressing, be it his own or someone else's, has little do do with the subject of Japanese language materials in the form of Obama's speeches.

Yes, it did have an ending quotation mark, and yes, it is related, since it's part of the article which he was quoting so people knew what it was.

There were quotation marks both before and after the quote. And again, while I can't speak for nest0r, and kind of feel silly doing so, I'm almost entirely sure the only reason that extract was there was to specifically point out what part of the blog post he was referencing, and to encourage discussion among people who don't like having to go to a linked site to participate in the forum. Would you have reacted the way you did if he had only posted the link?

I am still confused how that has something to do with the "Japanese language materials." IMO, it was completely unnecessary to post that opinion; I don't understand what the point of quoting that was if it wasn't to encourage debate about the matter.

wow, this is some heated discussion here >_<
this kanji is coming to my mind a lot right now-> 談
gotta love that story: "Think of an online discussion group where misunderstanding someone's words leads to flaming. An angry discussion = inflamed words."

Hashiriya Wrote:wow, this is some heated discussion here >_<
this kanji is coming to my mind a lot right now-> 談
gotta love that story: "Think of an online discussion group where misunderstanding someone's words leads to flaming. An angry discussion = inflamed words."

Yes, I feel regretful for writing the above comment, and apologize to anyone who was (indirectly) offended somehow, but I figured I shouldn't delete it since it's particularly direct, it'd be too wishy-washy to take it back now. I was just so annoyed by the time I finished reading all of igordesu's energetic misreadings of my original post and typical glassy-eyed responses to corrections...

Edit: Changed my mind, as usual. Deleted. ;p

Maybe Community threads shouldn't appear in "Recent Topics". If people want to talk about random stuff, other people shouldn't be distracted by it if they're not interested.

A wise man once said that what matters is not so much what you say, but how you say it.

igordesu Wrote:And anyways, this forum is in English and quite terrible for a Japanese immersion environment. I mean, I had to "divorce" it sooner or later.

I find that word divorce to be of interest. It implies a severing of deep emotional connection. I'd hate to see you go... over a misunderstanding. Sometimes the easiest solution to a problem is to bite your lip, apologize, and move on.

vosmiura Wrote:Maybe Community threads shouldn't appear in "Recent Topics". If people want to talk about random stuff, other people shouldn't be distracted by it if they're not interested.

The-then all my beautiful, random, and, yet, totally ignored topics, will lose all chance of ever seeing the light of day :O

igordesu Wrote:Nestor did not have an ending quotation mark. Therefore, it was completely unclear whether or not he was expressing his own opinion or someone else's. And anyways, that is irrelevant. The opinion that he was expressing, be it his own or someone else's, has little do do with the subject of Japanese language materials in the form of Obama's speeches.

Nestor's post was like this:

Quote:Thought this might be interesting to some: http://www.mutantfrog.com/2009/01/21/in … ikenesses/

"..."

The ... was an unedited extract from that link. There was no opinion from nestor other than that that link may be interesting to some.

Political/social opinion was off topic. I get that you misunderstood that the OP just quoted the blog and that you didn't intentionally go off topic. I don't get why you don't just say it was a misunderstanding and move on.

This is directed to Fabric mainly-I started using this site overone year ago.

I was thrilled to have found RTK and this site, and one of the things I really like was that, as Fabric himself has stated (somewhere), the study of Kanji and Japanese can be lonely, and this is a place to share a common interest.

This is the first forum I ever started my own thread (except for some Ubuntubu threds looking for help). I hard core was looking for a Kanji book to study out of after RTK that did jukugo by frequency, amd ran across KO2001 which I posted about and was a little thrilled to see it take off.

I left this site for anki after finishing RTK, but this sites`s stories, community, the "x amount of lessons to go" all motivated me to take my kanji further then ever in college.

Despite moving to anki, I STILL visit this site daily for one reason, to check what is going on with others who like to study japanese. I have found a lot of good resources here.

Now, I am all for free speach and all, and if people want to "debate" on forums then they should be allowed to. But the aspect I dont like is I visit this sites forums to find something interesting regarding Japanese study, and when an off topic becomes a flame war, name calling, or just people randomly writing stuff, or arguing for arguing`s sake, then I have to dig down past the "RECENT TOPICS" to find anything good to read. And sometimes the same ridicilus thread stays at the top for days at a time.

In other words, thoses "chat to your heart`s content" threads that become "see who can out blast who the most" takes away from the validity of this site as a Japanese learning community, which I think is Fabrics Goal.

Bleh-my 2 cents.

ditto

I've been on this site for more than a year, and the community here is great. Yet in the last few months I've noticed a creeping aggressiveness in the discussions that has a nastier edge than before. Free speech and all that - but it lends an air to the site that, as was just pointed out, infuses the rest of the discussions. It's still at tolerable levels, yet the fact we are even talking it shows there is a shift in attitudes going on here.

You know, really, I have to listen to ranting arguments at work, I see it on the TV and in the papers, bars and coffee shops, and guess what? No one can ever win, it just goes on forever. I really don't need it here as well, and when perfectly interesting threads get completely sidelined, it's not only frustrating, it damages this community and hurts the relationships we've built. So have at it, go at each others' throats, but honestly, just don't bugger up a good site for the rest of it.

There seem to be differences of opinion. Are people nicer or nastier than they used to be on this forum? Igordesu has welcomed the attacks and I don't think he has been too offended by them. He is pretty brave considering how unpopular his ideas are. The only other example I can think of was the Hanzikanji guy. This forum still seems pretty tame compared most others I have seen.

The people involved in the heated debates certainly seem to be OK with it. It's the others I'm concerned with. It's like a big noisy party. It's fun if you're part of it, not so fun if you're a neighbour.

I'm not pointing to any one person, or even one particular thread - and comparing this site to others isn't the point, it's insuring this site remains a cooperative community. Invective and malice are like viruses that spread and are hard to stamp out once they take hold.

We debate tons of ideas on language learning here, since it's the purpose of RtK; why you'd come to this particular site argue about unrelated issues is beyond me.

igordesu Wrote:And anyways, this forum is in English and quite terrible for a Japanese immersion environment. I mean, I had to "divorce" it sooner or later.

Why? Just because you're learning a language doesn't mean you have to destroy your life. "Shit, I love this site and this series, this book... but it's not in Japanese, so I can't use it."

Being serious is good. Exaggerating isn't. You don't have to stop doing something just because it isn't in Japanese, learning a language isn't that important.

[ファブリス]

It's good to hear opinions about the community and forum itself.

Just a quickie:

vosmiura Wrote:Maybe Community threads shouldn't appear in "Recent Topics". If people want to talk about random stuff, other people shouldn't be distracted by it if they're not interested.

Tempting, but the religious debate topic is more of the exception. I wouldn't like to think that "Community" sub forum becomes a "debates" forum or something. If that becomes the case I'll ban such topics altogether.

[ファブリス]

timcapmbell Wrote:I'm not pointing to any one person, or even one particular thread - and comparing this site to others isn't the point, it's insuring this site remains a cooperative community. Invective and malice are like viruses that spread and are hard to stamp out once they take hold.

I agree, it's important to note too something that seems to be the same accross all forums / communities is that only a small, very vocal part of the community sets the tone for the forum. The other 90% are people who enjoy reading the forum and who post once in a while but not very often. And I concur that the debates are boring anyway.

Can you honestly grow from reading somebody's opinion in a religious debate thread? OPr a political debate? You may learn something from a linked article, and that would amount to sharing information, a highly cooperative thing, completely different than expressing one's opinions on touchy subjects. The latter usually tends to be a me vs the rest of people. An ego building thing. In the Japanese learning topics people share ton of information in a cooperative way, everybody wins.

I'm going to take my time making my mind on this, and then make a decision, stick to it, and update the forum rules if needed.

@igordesu : I didn't call your post "BS", or made any comment about your particular view. You make too many assumptions about me closing the topic, getting too caught up in this. At the end of the day, your post with the ALL CAPS words amounts to "trolling". I know you didn't intend it. That's just the way it is, everybody learns to post on forums in an effective way. That first post there was bound to derail the thread. In retrospect I should have deleted your post for being "trolling" and delete posts from anybody feeding the flames, but not punish everyone else by closign the thread. Like I said I don't have time for this so I'll have to update the forum rules soon. Either way, just move on. You're welcome to stay, just avoid this kind of posts.

timcampbell Wrote:The people involved in the heated debates certainly seem to be OK with it. It's the others I'm concerned with. It's like a big noisy party. It's fun if you're part of it, not so fun if you're a neighbour.

I'm not pointing to any one person, or even one particular thread - and comparing this site to others isn't the point, it's insuring this site remains a cooperative community. Invective and malice are like viruses that spread and are hard to stamp out once they take hold.

We debate tons of ideas on language learning here, since it's the purpose of RtK; why you'd come to this particular site argue about unrelated issues is beyond me.

There are so many reasons why somebody studies Japanese. Some because they work in Japan, some because they like anime, some like the game go, and some want to go to Japan to spread God's word. If you put all these people together in one room you can't expect they only talk about language learning. I think the recent topics list still has a nice balance of seriousness and silliness.

Don't get me wrong. I was planning on ending my participation in this forum once I finished RTK anyways (I am nearing the end). I mean, to me it's not "destroying my life" to stop posting. It's just...it really is in English. And I want to get really good at Japanese. That really is a genuine reason. I just...the whole religion/politics debate is very awkward. I do apologize for the way that I said what I said (in the Obama thread and above). It really was quite ridiculous. I had no reason to go about ranting like that. And to go on pretending that "I knew there was a quotation mark at the end the whole time" (I didn't, lol) would just be really stupid of me. So, yes I apologize to Fabrice and anyone else who was offended by my remark. This forum really is one of the greatest and most productive forums I have ever visited.

However, I might just say, for future reference or whatever, I don't think the religion/political debate thread is a complete waste. I mean, it seems like people were enjoying the debate (as heated as it may have been). I guess the whole the "never debate religion and politics" thing that grandparents always tell you might apply a bit. But I still get the feeling that it was pretty harmless. It's not like religious/political debates will ever *completely* take over the community discussion area.

@Nestor: I read what you posted before you deleted it. I was slightly offended at first, but it's really no big deal. I'm not sure if you actually believe what you wrote or if it was just what you thought in "the heat of the moment," but either way it's really no big deal. (BTW, was the bit toward the end about "sucking up" in reference to a comment on one of Khatz' recent post? No hard feelings, but if that's what it was, I wasn't sucking up. It was a genuine concern). And...I don't want to point out any specifics to make it sound like I'm "covering my tracks." But, for the record, I don't think my reasons for studying Japanese are any greater than anyone else's. Everyone's reason is no better than anyone else's. Anyways, no hard feelings. I apologize if the way I've acted seems "self-righteous" or something. That's really not the way that I feeling.

BTW, I'd be willing to go and delete my off-topic comments if you wish.

It seems many of the complaints are about these threads appearing in recent topics. Is it at all possible to have an "ignore thread" option? Basically, it would make the thread not show up under Recent Topics but you can still see it if you went to the Community section. Each person can decide for themselves which threads they want to ignore. Although adding this option would probably be not worth the effort for what would be gained.