With all of the experience learning Japanese that RTK users here (and also people who have used the AJATT method, Anki, iKnow, and so on) have, I am proposing a question: if you were given the opportunity to teach high school students, whose 1st language is English, how would you go about it?

My journey of learning Japanese has primarily been a rough one of trial-and-error. I began when I was about 8 years old with books like 'Japanese in 10 Minutes a Day' and listening to the Living Language Japanese CD set. Though the time I spent learning when I was young made sure that I retained a lot of essential phrases and had a decent handle on grammar, I understood little about particle words and did not understand the writing system. It all seemed so complex and bewildering at that age! After a year and a half or two, I sort of abandoned it until I was in high school (an independent study program), where I resumed my self-study of Japanese, and got credits for my work.

As a freshman, I learned the kana and about 200 kanji, through flash cards and writing down the characters repeatedly. Unaware of Heisig's 'Remembering the Kanji', I studied the radicals through NTC's fabulous kanji dictionary; understanding their meanings helped me to retain characters that would otherwise have confused me. I also started the Pimsleur series, which (while the speaking is slower than actual Japanese) helped my pronunciation immensely. I continued in this manner as a sophomore, adding on about another 150 kanji, though it was difficult for me to say where I was at progress-wise. Books like 'Barron's Japanese Grammar' and Naoko Chino's paricle word book deepened my understanding of how the language works.

Being out of school now, it is easier for me to go back and judge my progress. I know the kind of material you would expect to find in books like 'Japanese for Busy People', I know hiragana and katakana, and 500+ kanji (especially due to starting RTK). Going through programs like iKnow has helped refresh me on what I learned when I was 8 and 9, which was actually even more than I realized, and I have been able to steer many of my friends who are interested in learning Japanese on the right path, the path I wish I would have been able to take years ago. So many more resources are available to Japanese learners now!!

Because of my experience, my former high school accepted me as a Japanese workshop teacher last semester, and I'm on again this semester. I had been teaching from my own compiled materials (Yookoso, Japanese for Busy People, and other books I had mentioned above) and thought it was important for the students to fully understand the grammar and know how to carry on a basic conversation before delving into the writing system, which I plan to do this semester. I know this may be contrary to suggested methods, like starting with kanji, then kana, then the 10,000 sentences like with AJATT, but I was sure that it would be very discouraging for a high schooler interested in learning Japanese to start out with learning loads of kanji and not be able to say much of anything!! Anyhow, I want to take my class to a new, high-productivity level this year, how would you go about it RTK?

Hi moogle, I guess you could at least point them them to AJATT and motivate at least some of them to do self study.

Me, and most people here I suppose, suggest that instead of telling them what to learn each lesson use the lessons to teach them how to teach themselves.

Japanese for busy people is a crappy book but I won't go into that, use the books you like to use. What you should probably do is tell your students about RtK. Show them the book, tell them how it works and tell them about this site/anki and tell them how it should be used. Then you can build your class around that ("remember to add 20 new kanji until next lesson") etc and make your tests using that knowledge. Maybe you could even go through the stories together with the class and teach them how to make good ones.

Telling them to use Anki to remember what you teach them is probably a great idea as well, plan tests and homework for it. Don't give them lists of words, give them lists of sentences instead.

Personally, I think you're doing them a disfavor by not introducing the writing system earlier, it's an integral and unescapable part of Japanese. I realize most people don't want to learn kanji before they learn to say basic things, but kanji should be introduced immediately, even on just a small scale.

I've actually thought a bit about this, just in a college environment (you know, where students actually care). I would have two classes, where one would be a sort of lab to accompany them.

The lab would be first. It would be like a 30 minute class where the focus was entirely on teaching kanji. Introduce radicals, help create stories, and let the students come up with them on their own with each other. Their only homework for this class would be: do the Anki reps.

For the class, I'd probably go full immersion and would avoid using English as much as possible. I'd read aloud to them on a regular basis from books and such, watch movies, shows, etc. Probably the only textbook would be something like Breaking into Japanese Lit., or whatever it's called. I'd assign them reading for homework from that.

Also, I'd take time aside to teach them good pronunciation. Something that nobody ever does and it pisses me off.

Basically emulate what I remember from kindergarten and and 1/2nd grade.

I think its would be overwhelming to study for a class and self study at the same time. I'm not saying it is impossible just impractical.

I helped teach Japanese in the Philippines for about a month, and it is easy to forget just how little beginners know. The biggest hurdle was getting student to say anything at all in Japanese. So if you want to go that the traditional classroom route, I'd recommend introducing SRS and anki. I would prepare sentences based on my lesson plan and encourage students to review them via anki.

During my first semester at a US university we didn't cover kanji (weren't tested on), My second semester was 3 years later, and it was a conversation class, although we covered about 30 kanji.

You can introduce Heisig and RtK as something students can do outside of the class. This is an interesting essay for using RtK:
http://www.kanjiclinic.com/riverainterview.htm

@ alyks

the lab idea is really great! that would work A LOT better in a college environment. I've always imagined how much it would suck trying to adapt these methods to teach at the high school level, but now that I think about it, college would be way better.

Yeah, and with the anki thing. No matter what I teach, I don't think I could ever go without at least letting the students know about Anki. And if I taught a foreign language, my class would be all over it.

igordesu Wrote:@ alyks

the lab idea is really great! that would work A LOT better in a college environment. I've always imagined how much it would suck trying to adapt these methods to teach at the high school level, but now that I think about it, college would be way better.

Yeah, and with the anki thing. No matter what I teach, I don't think I could ever go without at least letting the students know about Anki. And if I taught a foreign language, my class would be all over it.

Unfortunately, you might get things like this:

resolve Wrote:It seems not everyone is enjoying Anki though - this was one of the
submissions!

whatlike = I don't understand why my teacher has me doing this
right now, becuase its pretty worthless.
whatdislike = its pretty much online flash cards, which is not very
helpful
whatfeatures = SOMETHING THAT IS WORTH MY TIME
howoften = I HOPE NEVER AGAIN
othersrses = what does that mean?
contribute = ya right
howlearn = my teacher
messages = why did u waste your life making this program?

lol, yeah. That might be a problem. But kids are always complaining about something with their teachers' methods. I don't think it would be that big of a deal if you explained the true power of the SRS and your reason for doing so. But, hey, I could be totally wrong, lol, so...

It sounds like you've already been doing the conversation and are ready now to begin the writing system, right?

When I took Japanese in high school, the teacher had big flashcards for the kana that had pictures drawn in around the characters. け was keg. は was "ha, ha, ha, there's a hole in the keg." み was "Me? I'm 21."　お was a hole in one on the golf course. They were all that sort of thing. I'm sure there's something more advanced available now, but it worked, especially since our textbook had no romaji.

What if you took the students through the first part of RTK, the part that is available online for free (276 characters)? You could encourage them to buy the book and work through the rest over the summer. I imagine some of the students are interested in Japanese because of the writing system. If you did about 20 per week with RTK, it would not take much time away from the other things you want to do. It would give students both a sense of accomplishment and a tool for further study.

dang, I don't know. if you just had a lab twice a week in addition to the regular classes like Alyks said, you could just make sure the students to the equivalent of the average lesson for each lab or every other lab. You'd have the whole thing finished.

I would first recognize that their are going to be people in a high school class that are there without much choice in the matter (unlike college) and who are uninterested in learning the language. At the same time I'd also recognize there will be many who are truly interested. I would be fair to both and develop a curriculum that does not depend on outside study while at the same time giving those who truly want to learn to fluency all the tools they will need to continue learning outside of the classroom setting.

I think Anki and the sentence method could actually be used as an excellent in class resource for designing a very efficient course that would make it easy on both the teacher and students. Each day as you go over new material you add example sentences into the "class Anki" that is being projected on the wall with a single computer. Students wouldn't even need their own Anki deck. Every day at the beginning of class you would simple review whatever material Anki brings up before moving on to the lesson of today. Reviews would never get high because you simply wouldn't add more than a few sentences every day.

Grammar would be learned from something fun like "Japanese the Manga Way". I saw someone else in here high recommend this book so I bought it a few days ago and I must say it could very well be the best basic grammar book I've come across. It's readability is incredible for a grammar book. I dare say it's almost fun to read.

A first year course would definitely focus almost entirely on understanding the language. IMO you're wasting valuable time trying to get kids to speak right from the start when they should be learning the fundamentals on how to truly understand the language. Once they start to understand then they'll be able to start learning how to speak on their own, which should be the point of any language class IMO.

So taking into account that in one year the average in class days in the USA is 180 an example curriculum could be as follows.

First 2 weeks: Knock out Hiragana and Katakana.

Rest of the year: Work through Japanese the Manga way. You would only have to cover an average of 1.6 pages per day to complete the entire book in one year. This is laughably slow for how well written the book is and would give you plenty of extra time to throw in other fun stuff. Each day simply add 3 or 4 new sentences to Anki from the grammar lesson of that day. Spend first 10-15 minutes of each new class reviewing Anki sentences from previous lessons. At the end of one year you'd have about a 650 sentence grammar deck covering all of the basics. This deck file could then be given to any students who are truly serious about the language and want to keep up with it over the summer on their own computers.

I would also introduce the kids to RTK and show them how to use it on their own time but would not make it a mandatory part of the class. However, I would probably attach an incentive for motivated students to complete it on their own time. In fact I'd probably go as far as giving them an automatic "A" for the entire course if they could prove to me that they completed Heisig within 9 months of a regular school year.

Of course the most important thing is I would make the class incredibly fun.

@activeaero

Nice.

You forgot Yan-san. You can't have a class without Yan-san!

I suppose the kids are all using Erin ga Choosen now... but it's not the same! You must have the cheesy language videos, and we must see Japan in the 1980s!

I think you need to be somewhat flexible, depending on the class. Some classes you're just going to teach the basics to, but you may luck out and get a group of focused, motivated learners. If you get the latter, you need to find ways to keep them interested, or else they'll just tune out. 1-2 pages a day isn't going to cut it for those kids.

So I'd say the most important thing is to figure out who your students are, why they're there, and what they want out of your class. If they're just there because they have to be there, then yeah, 1-2 pages a day is about right. But if they REALLY want to learn Japanese, you're going to need to find other stuff for them to do.

activeaero Wrote:I would first recognize that their are going to be people in a high school class that are there without much choice in the matter (unlike college) and who are uninterested in learning the language. At the same time I'd also recognize there will be many who are truly interested. I would be fair to both and develop a curriculum that does not depend on outside study while at the same time giving those who truly want to learn to fluency all the tools they will need to continue learning outside of the classroom setting.

弱肉強食 would be my philosophy if I ran a class.

@activeaero

Yes! Someone else noted how awesome that book is, I feel vindicated.

@alyks
heck, yeah. survival of the fittest, baby. lol...like it or not, kids are in class to learn. Whether they want to be there or not, that's the purpose. Don't wanna learn? You fail. Simple as that. Lol, I'd have no remorse. I *hate* those kids who ruin it for the kids like me who do want to learn...

And the Japanese the manga way book? Is that sort of like the Japanese in Mangaland books? I love those. I'm gonna mine those bad boys to pieces! I'd definitely recommend those too!

First of all, thanks to everyone that responded! Reading your posts has given me a fresh perspective on doing this, I'm glad that I asked, especially considering teaching Japanese is so multi-faceted and there are few resources I have come across about this topic. I'm going to try to address what was said here so far:

@mentat_kgs: I have read excerpts from posts at AJATT in-class and I have the website linked on my Japanese blog that the students visit. Regardless of the method of instruction being used, Khatzu offers some excellent goal-oriented tips that figure in with language and beyond.

@Tobberoth: 'Japanese For Busy People' isn't exactly my cup of tea either, and I also forgot to mention 'Japanese For Everyone' as a prime source I plan to use more of this year, particularly for the reason of it's inclusion of hiragana, katakana, and basic kanji. What I like about 'Japanese For Busy People' is that the lessons are (comparatively) small and grammar points are covered succinctly and without as much confusion as some other texts may cause. It serves a purpose in getting conversation started that could be used in actual, though often over-formal, situations. I have made sure they understand the stylistic and functional differences between hiragana, katakana, and kanji and also the important fact of it being a syllabary, as opposed to an alphabet; it is the learning of the characters that is the next step to address.

@alyks: This is a great idea! My class-time was extended by a half-hour more than it was last semester, so something similar may be possible, and would help make sure that those who are behind on self-study or class homework would get caught up and be on the same page. And, yes, pronunciation is key! That is absolutely what I covered in the very first class and have reviewed it a few times since, playing audio clips.

@igordesu: Looks like Anki is pretty much an essential tool. Though some people may have their qualms with it, I know how much flash cards (both traditional, and the way-beyond cool SRS) have improved my retention and have simplified learning while cutting down time.

@oregum: I appreciate the Kanji Clinic link; I had forgotten about the great articles on the site! You are correct in that self-study is not guaranteed, making emphasis on class work important while providing off-campus resources on-line and in handouts.

@KristinHolly: Such methods to learn hiragana and katakana assisted me when I began learning; Heisig has a Remembering the Kana book as well, I do believe; this just reminded me!

@activeaero: The 'class Anki' idea is excellent, and will absolutely be implemented right away. 'Japanese the Manga Way' is one of the books the school ordered last year, and one that I actually did not look at before! I borrowed it and think it will prove quite helpful..and fun! You're whole outline deserves the utmost props!

@rich_f: Yan-san is new to me, I just took a look at a few of the episodes! I think they would get a kick out of this, and pick up some vocabulary along the way.

I will follow up on how the class is working out and the students' progress, and meanwhile compile some information that could potentially be helpful to other people in English-speaking countries teaching Japanese in a high school setting.

igordesu Wrote:@alyks
heck, yeah. survival of the fittest, baby. lol...like it or not, kids are in class to learn. Whether they want to be there or not, that's the purpose. Don't wanna learn? You fail. Simple as that. Lol, I'd have no remorse. I *hate* those kids who ruin it for the kids like me who do want to learn...

And the Japanese the manga way book? Is that sort of like the Japanese in Mangaland books? I love those. I'm gonna mine those bad boys to pieces! I'd definitely recommend those too!

Oh I'm definitely the same way in regards to learning IN CLASS. Like I said my mindset regarding people who don't want to be in there has to do with outside the class activities. I'm not going to design a class demanding that everyone better turn into a Japanese language learning freak like those of us on this forum.

A public teacher's job is to impart knowledge and make learning as efficient and effective as possible with the time he/she is allotted. It is not your job to try an impose your own personal agenda in regards to the way you THINK everyone should act towards Japanese when outside the scope of the class. The only teachers that have to do that are the crappy ones. Besides, for all you know the kids in your class that aren't very interested in Japanese could be learning freaks in some other area of study. Maybe their spending 3hrs a day practicing music, sports, learning computer programs, etc.

People also need to step back and think how hypocritical this train of thought is. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that everyone in this forum had classes in high school that they hated due to lack of overall interest in the subject yet were still completely respectful students while in the class. Now what if we adapted the mindset you think everyone should have in regards to teaching/learning Japanese and made every class in high school tailored only to the absolute freaks of that particular subjects? Yeah it would be horrible and education as a whole would suffer as only the top few % would actually be able to keep up and learn anything useful.

Public education is just that...PUBLIC. It is supposed to provide the best possible education for EVERYONE. If a few students feel they are ahead of the class and want to be doing other things then who is stopping them? They can go home and study Japanese for 10hrs every day if they feel like it.

That is my opinion at least.

nest0r Wrote:@activeaero

Yes! Someone else noted how awesome that book is, I feel vindicated.

Haha I remember you trying to campaign for it in a few threads but it seemed to be landing on deaf ears. I was a little doubtful at first because honestly the cover makes it seem a little "gimmicky" and I was actually let down by the Japanese in Mangaland (vol 2) I bought earlier (which oddly enough doesn't even have very much Manga in it considering the title and description of the book). I really love how the text is broken up into very small topics and sub topics that are so easy to read. The author really knows how to write in "plain english" too. It sounds like a minor thing but it really makes a huge difference.

alyks Wrote:Hippie.

Well I did write in Ron Paul for president.........

Activeaero, you've read a lot of GTO haven't you?

alyks Wrote:Activeaero, you've read a lot of GTO haven't you?

What is GTO?

Edit: Nevermind I wiki'd it lol.

@activearo
good call. I pretty much agree with you. Though, that's why I think I'd prefer teaching college. Then again...how to teach college japanese wasn't the original question now was it, lol...

Everyone wants to learn. Now, what and how...

mentat_kgs Wrote:Everyone wants to learn. Now, what and how...

Oh man, that is -so- not true. Maybe everyone in this forum... But not -everyone-. There are people that are actively against learning and have to be dragged kicking and screaming through middle and highschool. Forget seeing them at a college.

Of course, there's the opposite, too. I can never get enough learning. I'm burnt out on classes (mostly from igordesu's description of kids who ruin it for me) but self-study is awesome.