School isn't learning. It's just school. Those people are very involved in learning other things. For instance, keeping up with the latest trends is a very involved process, whatever you might think of it's worth. Though, it's worth noting they think very little of the worth of your learning Japanese as well. What they're learning is giving them concrete benefits.

Besideswhich, school is murder. It forces you to learn a lot of things you'd rather not, and even things you would like to learn, it makes it so you'd rather not. I actually became interested in most of the things that are taught at the high school level later, and while I've learned about them, none of what I learned about them I learned in high school. This is the reason a lot of people do conclude that 'I hate learning,' but what they really hate is learning things they couldn't give a shit about with methods they despise, which is what mandatory education is all about (just below 'free babysitting,' that is).

Which is why I don't think a "do as well as someone who cares passionately about this topic or fail out" attitude is really appropriate. Because you can only do that well if you do care passionately, and Japanese is not something people should or can be forced to care passionately about.

But this is the difference between mandatory and elective, again. In private classes and college etc, there's no particular reason to give slack.

I guess I agree with that. But...that kind of sucks then because there are so many other teachers in other subjects that force you to be obsessed with their subjects. Example: I've taken two years of physics at the high school level but at two different schools. the first school was cool b/c it was enjoyable, we learned the general, conceptual side of physics, and it didn't require 8 hrs of work/day outside of school. The second school sucked because they forced you to figure out the concepts on your own, they went way, way, way over the top with the calculus and heavy math side of physics without making sure the students were ready, and it was literally a (almost) part-time job in addition to my other classes. I wish all teachers were like what you just said.

But then, I suppose that's what AP classes are for in high school (I don't know if they have those outside of the US, so this shows my ignorance; they're basically...difficult/challenging classes that you can take as a senior to get college credit ahead of time)<---maybe they could be like "AP Japanese" with a prerequisite of the basic japanese courses where you learn simple stuff like the kana and basic grammar and vocab. Then the AP class would focus on getting through RTK. Eh? That sounds like a good idea. Or maybe it'd be better to stick to college...

Well, maybe they don't want to learn math or history, or geography. Maybe they like sports, arts, food, spiderman, etc. I've still not met a child that had no passion for knowledge. Adults without passion, ah, that is much more likely.

There is an AP Japanese exam now. I just found the description:
http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/pu...sedesc.pdf

I don't imagine there are many people getting full credit on this just based on high school classes. It includes listening, reading, writing, and speaking (recording yourself responding to prerecorded prompts and making a two minute presentation about Japanese culture).

Ah, that reminds me. There's also an SAT Subject test for Japanese too.
http://www.collegeboard.com/student/test...nlist.html

With high school kids you have to make Japanese fun and interesting. Luckily this isn't too hard. People can go on and on about using anki and starting off with Heisig, but kids probably won't want to do that too much, if at all. Some kids will be more interested than others, those kids you can direct more heavily towards Anki, Heisig and AJATT.

However lots of kids just don't want to be bored or worked to death. So, teach them some vocab or a sentence structure, then show them some anime where it is used. Bring manga to school and leave it lying around for the kids to peruse. Do a lot of output, because it's more fun for kids. Do role plays, do immersion sometimes where you speak to the whole class in Japanese, but perhaps warn them and don't do it every day. Ease them in to it, ratchet up their interest by talking about the wacky things those zany Japanese do. Find weird commercials on youtube, or five minute anime shorts and go through them with your class, get them to tell you what's going on from context, explain what they say, etc.

Japan is such a cool country but lots of teachers suck the life out of Japanese study. If you use manga and anime daily, I don't know what kind of kid could resist it's allure. You can find those short four panel manga stories and project them, go through them, photocopy them for homework. Homework can be manga every day if you have enough time and willpower to find good ones at a good level. Heisig can be used to remember kanji but don't make them do all 2000, just make a story for the ones you teach, and show them how to make a story, introduce them to some common radicals. Lots of radicals are named by shape only anyway.

Give them Japanese food, candy for bribes and quizzes. Work in pictures of some hot Japanese cosplayers, men and women of course, show them some freaks, talk about the culture and direct them to useful websites. Talk about crazy things that happened to you in Japan, you can use your language blunders in Japan to introduce structures and vocab. Okay I'm getting random now, that's enough. Do what good teachers should always do, make it interesting and reward them for effort with more interesting stuff.

phauna Wrote:However lots of kids just don't want to be bored or worked to death. So, teach them some vocab or a sentence structure, then show them some anime where it is used. Bring manga to school and leave it lying around for the kids to peruse. Do a lot of output, because it's more fun for kids. Do role plays, do immersion sometimes where you speak to the whole class in Japanese, but perhaps warn them and don't do it every day. Ease them in to it, ratchet up their interest by talking about the wacky things those zany Japanese do. Find weird commercials on youtube, or five minute anime shorts and go through them with your class, get them to tell you what's going on from context, explain what they say, etc.

...

Give them Japanese food, candy for bribes and quizzes. Work in pictures of some hot Japanese cosplayers, men and women of course, show them some freaks, talk about the culture and direct them to useful websites. Talk about crazy things that happened to you in Japan, you can use your language blunders in Japan to introduce structures and vocab. Okay I'm getting random now, that's enough. Do what good teachers should always do, make it interesting and reward them for effort with more interesting stuff.

Are you serious? When I was in high school and took a Japanese class, the teacher did this kind of crap. We hated being treated like we were in kindergarten or something. Candy for bribes? Role play? None of this is going to succeed in getting the kids interested. But for the kids who are interested, it makes it hell. When we were in high school, we would have rather been worked a little hard over having the teachers try and "engage" us into the material by treating us like we were babies.

The only way you deal with uninterested teenagers is you set up a system that stays the same. Do the homework or you get bad grades. Come to class or you fail. The only thing you can do is try and make it interesting for the people who do care, because trying to "get them interested" just makes things worse. You get people like my 7th grade history teacher, who had us draw (and color) a picture of an animal who we were going to go back in time and explore together. Disgusting.

Personally I think it's a great idea. My favorite parts of my Japanese classes in Japan were when my teacher told us about his own experiences in Japan. Learned tons of good Japanese, learned tons of Japanese culture and it was hilarious. Of course, it won't be the same thing when someone of my own nativity tells me of HIS version of Japan.. but when you have real Japanese people as Japanese teachers, it's amazing. The teachers bringing traditional Japanese candy etc was a blast as well... but yeah, it could be because we were all living in Japan, we were really interested in that stuff. If you go to class to do NOTHING but study the language 100%, it might be annoying.

There's a pretty big difference between doing coloring books in 7th grade and what Phauna was talking about. Phauna's description sounds like the best class ever. Particularly having native materials available for access at all times, and slipped in as part of the curriculum as well.

Maybe there's finally a purpose to US remakes of Japanese films. Show them to students and point out the cultural/linguistic differences.

I think the biggest thing you have to remember is that since it's high school, if the class isn't an elective, about 97% of the students won't want to be there. If it is an elective, about 90 % won't won't to be there (because it was probably a choice between your class and Home Ec. or something.)

I remember taking Spanish in high school and hating every second of it, but I technically chose to be there. My other choice was to take a German class.

alyks Wrote:Are you serious? When I was in high school and took a Japanese class, the teacher did this kind of crap. We hated being treated like we were in kindergarten or something. Candy for bribes? Role play? None of this is going to succeed in getting the kids interested. But for the kids who are interested, it makes it hell. When we were in high school, we would have rather been worked a little hard over having the teachers try and "engage" us into the material by treating us like we were babies.

The only way you deal with uninterested teenagers is you set up a system that stays the same. Do the homework or you get bad grades. Come to class or you fail. The only thing you can do is try and make it interesting for the people who do care, because trying to "get them interested" just makes things worse. You get people like my 7th grade history teacher, who had us draw (and color) a picture of an animal who we were going to go back in time and explore together. Disgusting.

Yes, I'm serious. AJATT and Heisig are for people who already have motivation and drive. Using authentic materials is obviously going to be more interesting than a dry textbook, and more interesting than Anki. Also, no one is going to allow a class which involved only watching Japanese shows. Why even have a teacher? If you get them interested they might try to get input on their own time. You could then provide a small library of materials that they could take home and use.

Your suggestions were for a college class, if you have any for high school ideas, please share them. Setting Anki for homework? How will you make sure they do it? They could just say they knew what each sentence meant, click the easy button repeatedly, get rewarded by doing even less homework. Doing anki in a group as a projection sounds the most promising in a class setting, like a daily quiz.

Everyone thinks school sucks, but no one wants to make suggestions and fix it. Also a class is not for individuals, you must aim for a little above middle and offer extra for speedy learners. Classes you have to go to can't be survival of the fittest. Lots of kids don't mind failing, don't mind detention. Colouring in is busy work but I fail to see how reading manga and watching anime then discussing them is similar, and how it would be condescending. In my German class we would get pfeffernusse, I still love that stuff, and I would never have even heard about it unless my teacher gave me some. And we watched Inspector Rex, about a German shepherd detective.

As for being treated like a baby, I was on the verge of suggesting hentai and such as something definitely drawing in their attention but I thought a teacher who brought that stuff to class would get fired pretty quickly. Personally, any perverted gay Harry Potter fanfic manga would be fine with me. If they are 16 or over, you could probably show bits of The Ring, and other Jhorror. There are lots of manga and anime about high school kids being brutally murdered or something, kids love that.

alyks Wrote:

phauna Wrote:However lots of kids just don't want to be bored or worked to death. So, teach them some vocab or a sentence structure, then show them some anime where it is used. Bring manga to school and leave it lying around for the kids to peruse. Do a lot of output, because it's more fun for kids. Do role plays, do immersion sometimes where you speak to the whole class in Japanese, but perhaps warn them and don't do it every day. Ease them in to it, ratchet up their interest by talking about the wacky things those zany Japanese do. Find weird commercials on youtube, or five minute anime shorts and go through them with your class, get them to tell you what's going on from context, explain what they say, etc.

...

Give them Japanese food, candy for bribes and quizzes. Work in pictures of some hot Japanese cosplayers, men and women of course, show them some freaks, talk about the culture and direct them to useful websites. Talk about crazy things that happened to you in Japan, you can use your language blunders in Japan to introduce structures and vocab. Okay I'm getting random now, that's enough. Do what good teachers should always do, make it interesting and reward them for effort with more interesting stuff.

Are you serious? When I was in high school and took a Japanese class, the teacher did this kind of crap. We hated being treated like we were in kindergarten or something. Candy for bribes? Role play? None of this is going to succeed in getting the kids interested. But for the kids who are interested, it makes it hell. When we were in high school, we would have rather been worked a little hard over having the teachers try and "engage" us into the material by treating us like we were babies.

The only way you deal with uninterested teenagers is you set up a system that stays the same. Do the homework or you get bad grades. Come to class or you fail. The only thing you can do is try and make it interesting for the people who do care, because trying to "get them interested" just makes things worse. You get people like my 7th grade history teacher, who had us draw (and color) a picture of an animal who we were going to go back in time and explore together. Disgusting.

Dang. I could not agree more. That is pure awesomeness. Seriously, my thoughts exactly. I had the same *exact* experience...

I taught Japanese at the university, high school and middle school levels back in the States. I feel like I had a lot of successes, and a lot of failures, as well. I learned quite a bit during the three years that I was teaching, and thought I might put in my two-cents.

First, as has been alluded to by previous posters, most of your students aren't going to be gung-ho about learning - well, anything. Even the students who came to Japanese because they expressed an interest in it are not going to be keen on spending hours a day at home studying vocab, grammar and kana/kanji. In fact, chances are that 90-100% of them are there because they like anime. And we all know the exemplary track record that anime fans as a whole have exhibited as learners of Japanese.

Therefore, I would suggest structuring the class as a mix of about 2/3 language and 1/3 culture. Maybe have one or two days a week just dedicated to experiencing something cultural. Examples might be: watching a movie; making some kind of food (I've done simple sushi before - no fish, of course); doing a discussion on something cultural, complete with samples that you can pass out (I've done a talk on Japanese New Year's and brought in Japanese kites, Otoshidama envelopes and samples of Osechi); doing some origami, calligraphy or sumi-e; introducing sudoku (hey, back then no one in the States had ever heard of it). Just some ideas. My aim in doing these sorts of things was two-fold. First) I wanted the class to be interesting without being (as a previous poster put it) childish. Second) I wanted them to see that true Japanese culture is often very, very different from what gets filtered through to the States (or shown in anime movies).

Besides the cultural side, of course, you do need to teach them the language. I actually taught kana in the first two weeks (that's how I learned it). My reasoning is that I wanted them being immersed as much as possible in Japanese in my class. So, from week two on to the end of the year, all my handouts (I didn't use a textbook) had everything written in authentic Japanese, kanji and all (with furigana, of course). My impression was that the students thought the handouts looked pretty cool, written all in Japanese. But at the same time, it was a bit intimidating - which, if you've ever studied teaching pedagogy, you'll know that making the students a bit nervous (not too nervous, mind you) can lower the affective filter. In other words, it keeps them on their toes a bit and helps prevent them from getting bored.

As far as grammar and vocab goes - I didn't use a textbook in class, but I did follow the structure of one (I used both Genki and Yookoso). No need to reinvent the wheel, you know? But I taught and reviewed and quizzed the grammar and vocab using as many different approaches as possible. Not only will kids get bored by the same thing over and over, but you probably know as well that not every person has the exact same learning style. A-kun my respond well to detailed translation exercises while B-chan may respond very well to diving right in with role-play/dialog activities. Mix things up and keep it interesting. Do something different every day: multiple-choice exercises, spelling bees, sentence translation races, dialogs, word search/crosswords (look on-line for word seach/crossword generators where you can enter your own hints and answers), games like Jeopardy! or Wheel of Fortune, etc. I've copied a page out of a manga, white-ed out (white outed?) the dialogs and had the students make up their own story and present it to the class. I've even created a full set of monopoly-inspired cards w/ gameboard - each space had a Japanese question to read and answer in order to buy the plot, etc. It took a lot of time to make at first, but it's something you can use over and over, year after year. Anything you can think of that is interesting, but still serves to review the language is a good thing.

To this end, I played to their interest in anime/manga by dedicating every Friday to slowly working through Ranma 1/2 (I chose Ranma because it's funny, has furigana, and most of the students are already familiar with it). I paired up students, handed out a J-E dictionary to each pair and gave them time to work through a panel I assigned to them. I then had each pair get up and present their translated panel to the rest of the class. The kids seemed to enjoy it, and when we finished the first volume by the end of year 1, they had a real sense of accomplishment.

And remember that it's okay to let off steam every once in a while by playing a game or doing an activity that only has very tentative connections to Japanese. You don't have to run the class like the Gestapo. Have fun every now and then to lighten up the mood in the classroom.

I could go on and on, but I'll shut up now. Hope you find some of this helpful.

alyks Wrote:The only way you deal with uninterested teenagers is you set up a system that stays the same. Do the homework or you get bad grades. Come to class or you fail.

I tried this very thing my first term of high school - and 80% of the class was failing by the end of the term, which is completely unacceptable. I agree that a stable, understandable system is absolutely essential, but that isn't enough to get high school students to actually DO anything.

alyks Wrote:The only thing you can do is try and make it interesting for the people who do care,

Which, in my experience at all grade levels, is about 3-4 students out of a class of 40 (on average). Tailoring your class for 3-4 kids while ignoring the other 36-37 is a poor way to teach a class.

alyks Wrote:because trying to "get them interested" just makes things worse. You get people like my 7th grade history teacher, who had us draw (and color) a picture of an animal who we were going to go back in time and explore together. Disgusting.

I know from experience that it's entirely possible to get the students in a class engaged without going so far as doing childish activities. And I don't think that "getting them interested" is the point of making things fun. As a teacher, I felt it was my responsibility to introduce as much culture and language as possible. When all is said and done, whether the students ended up being interested in Japan's culture and language is out of my hands. But, I can expose them to it, and make that process of exposure as fun as possible.

I think I hear the crux of what you're trying to say, however. Creating a solid class is all about balance. Too much and you break the students. Too little and you bore them. Too childish and you insult them. Too demanding and you lose their interest.

And to make things even more complex (for the teacher, at least) - every class is going to have a different atmosphere. Some things will work in one class, and not in another. You really have to play it by ear and tailor your style and approach to each class.

MoogleFan-

It's good to get a variety of suggestions. The people here might be Japanese and/or self-study experts and they can give you some good insight along those lines. But I suggest speaking with some teaching experts. Perhaps people who have been or who are in the same situation as you. Check out FLTeach http://www.cortland.edu/FLTEACH/ . There is a forum there and there are thousands of teachers who read it and quite a few who will respond to your questions quickly and professionally. They will likely have lots of tried and tested methods/activities/etc. They might not know about AJATT, but you don't need to mention it. Just tell them your situation and ask for help. You can pick and choose from the advice what works for you and your situation and how you think your students should learn.

For me, I think it's a bit silly to try to take a self-study method and twist it to work in a classroom setting. (Silly, but I was stuck when I was trying to do the opposite, take a classroom method [TPRS] and twist it to work for me studying Japanese on my own.) It'd be better to work from AJATT's underlying theory (mainly Krashen's input hypothesis, I believe) to develop a method ideal for the classroom or at the least created with a classroom in mind. It's been done already if you want to avoid the work. If you're interested, TPRS is the comprehensible input-based method I prefer to use though there are others. There are two forums you can use to ask teachers for ideas about TPRS. moretprs.net and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/moretprs/ . There is a lot of overlap with membership of these two forums, so you might just pick one and use it. The first one is newer and has a nicer set up, but the latter is the original and tends to be more active. But posting to both is fine, too.

Trying to adapt AJATT or the sentence method to the classroom doesn't really take into account the resources inherent in a classroom set up. It makes obstacles of them in many cases. Namely the teacher. The teacher should be able to play the vital role of supplying lots of accurate and comprehensible input. No need to repeat the same sentences over and over (anki). The teacher can provide similar sentences repeating vocabulary and grammar but with new information in the form of a story or conversation that can be much more interesting than anki.

I think some of the advice here was good but some is misinformed. (Active had a lot of good things to say, some I agree with and some I disagree with, but good nonetheless.) It'd be smart to supplement it with that of teaching experts and veterans.

Sidenote: Saying that college students want to be in their classes is a gross generalization that does not approach a resemblance of the truth. It is, perhaps, especially inappropriate for college language classes which are required for all students at most standard 4 year universities. Perhaps, it's different for classes in one's major. But even then there are many students who simply want the degree. They need the diploma for a job.

Okay, I'm not a teacher right now, and I never have been, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I'm talking from my own learning experiences here, but we all know that just because someone spends years on one side of the desk as a student doesn't mean they can be successful on the other.

First, I don't care what anybody says, classes are for learning. You are there to learn something. Not have fun. Class never was for having fun, and it never should be for having fun. That would be a terrible, terrible thing to spend my (and your) tax dollars on (i'm from the US here, so...whatever if this isn't the same in your country, lol). That doesn't mean learning must be boring, and language-learning especially must be fun. BUT, you are there to learn. And I don't care if someone took the class "because they have to" or "because it was this or home ec" or "i just have to get this degree so i can get a job." Tough luck, charlie brown. You picked the class. You are there to learn (in this case, a language). If you fail, you fail. If the system (school, or whatever) has a problem with you failing students who are failing at their task of learning, then it's the school that has a problem and not you.

Now, the teacher does have to tailor the class to the students. If no one in the class is learning for whatever reason, the teacher has failed at his/her job of facilitating learning. But there's a difference between failing kids because they don't want to learn and the teacher failing at their job of teaching. You have to draw the line somewhere. And, as alyks said, it's stupid to dumb a class down ridiculously. Seriously. I'm not against learning "cultural stuff" two days a week even. But cut the crap with drawing silly pictures on overhead transparencies.

And this is what gets me. People say this kind of stuff about foreign language classes and even history or english classes, but what about math and science? I think math and science are just as important as foreign language. Maybe this shows my own personal bias, but how come nobody ever tells them to back the truck off? They get to load the work on and do whatever they want because "this is serious stuff." They may tailor the class to the students a little bit, but guess what? If you're in pre-calculus, or calculus, or physics, or molecular biology, if you fail to learn what the teacher is teaching, you simply fail. That's why we can't lower our standards.

Mixing stuff up is okay. Doing different activities and maybe even games. But this could be difficult. I've been in A LOT of classes like those. I know "different people learn differently" and all that, but...some stuff just doesn't work. I worked very hard and tried to learn another language through classes like these doing stuff like "translation activities and games" and "skits and diaglogs." Not boasting or anything, but I was probably the best out of my peers because I tried. And you know what? After years and years of that, I've made more progress w/ Japanese doing input based comprehension stuff than I did with the other language in a ridiculously smaller amount of time.

And I'm not saying you have to "run stuff like the gestapo." Language learning can be fun. But I think you're right when you say a line has to be drawn there. That's why I think a few years of regular Japanese study would probably have to be required before you can start doing stuff like RTK.

kay, sorry for the long post, but i'm emotional after a long review session, lol, so...

igordesu Wrote:First, I don't care what anybody says, classes are for learning. You are there to learn something. Not have fun. Class never was for having fun, and it never should be for having fun....That doesn't mean learning must be boring, and language-learning especially must be fun.

That was exactly the point of my post. I always took it upon myself as a teacher to make the lessons effective and relevant, but at the same time enjoyable.

But, like I said before, I see no problem with taking 15-20 minutes to 'take a break' by doing something that only has marginal connection to the subject (and I don't mean every day - I did this about once a week). For example, I once did a sudoku lesson (remember, back then nobody had ever heard of it) and had the students come up, write a number into the solution sheet on the overhead, and say the number in Japanese. It had only a little bit of actual language learning/review, but the kids had fun and when we were done, we got back to studying grammar and vocab, and the students seemed refreshed and focused.

It's a simple fact that if you enjoy a class, you are going to pay more attention and apply yourself more to that subject.

igordesu Wrote:If you fail, you fail. If the system (school, or whatever) has a problem with you failing students who are failing at their task of learning, then it's the school that has a problem and not you.

But a big part of a teacher's job is helping to motivate the student. A sad fact, and one that makes teaching that much harder to do, but a fact it is. And try for a moment to put yourself in the teacher's shoes. You have perfectly intelligent, talented kids in your class who are failing because they aren't motivated; can you just shrug your shoulders and say "Too bad for you."?

As much as their laziness bugged the hell outta me, I could never do that to my students.

igordesu Wrote:I think math and science are just as important as foreign language. Maybe this shows my own personal bias, but how come nobody ever tells them to back the truck off? They get to load the work on and do whatever they want because "this is serious stuff." They may tailor the class to the students a little bit, but guess what? If you're in pre-calculus, or calculus, or physics, or molecular biology, if you fail to learn what the teacher is teaching, you simply fail. That's why we can't lower our standards.

Man, I hated math. No relation to this thread - just had to get that out of my system.

igordesu Wrote:Mixing stuff up is okay. Doing different activities and maybe even games. But this could be difficult. I've been in A LOT of classes like those. I know "different people learn differently" and all that, but...some stuff just doesn't work.

That is exactly why teaching is such a difficult job. And that is exactly why you should give a nod out to any teacher who was trying their best. Maybe they didn't all succeed, but I'll tell you - it was the most difficult job I've ever done. And I've worked a lot of jobs, in a variety of industries. I don't think I'd ever want to go back to teaching.

So much effort and so little thanks... ;(

igordesu Wrote:And I'm not saying you have to "run stuff like the gestapo." Language learning can be fun. But I think you're right when you say a line has to be drawn there.

Like I said, it's all about balance. It's a very tricky balancing act...

igordesu Wrote:kay, sorry for the long post, but i'm emotional after a long review session, lol, so...

Waitaminute...long posts are a bad thing?!? :o

mattyjaddy Wrote:Sidenote: Saying that college students want to be in their classes is a gross generalization that does not approach a resemblance of the truth. It is, perhaps, especially inappropriate for college language classes which are required for all students at most standard 4 year universities. Perhaps, it's different for classes in one's major. But even then there are many students who simply want the degree. They need the diploma for a job.

I agree.

When I taught Japanese at university, the ratio of serious, interested students to (ultimately) uninterested students was only marginally higher than when I taught at high school or middle school.

When I was in highschool, we had 2 spanish teachers. That is because the first forced us to do roleplay and output. And it was horrible. So after much cumplain, she was kicked out.

The English teacher was nice. Most of he did was read and interpret bilingual texts.

Lol. If you missed the point of me bringing the "math and science" thing into the discussion, you pretty much missed the point of my whole post. You say that the teacher must "motivate" the students. That's true, but it should only be true to the extent that it's true for math and science teachers. Those classes are just as important (imho, don't want to debate that point though...), yet those teachers (again, in my experience) don't spend a great deal of time motivating the students. Even when 80% of the class is failing. Why? Because if they have to dumb the class down so the students class or not teach certain difficult things, then they have failed as a teacher. Again, applying this sort of mentality to foreign language classes may not be realistic since foreign language classes unfortunately do not get the respect from school systems that other classes get...

The whole problem is with classes.
While one person talks and 20+ keep their mouth shut, something is very wrong.

Public school takes 10 years to teach something that can be learned in much less time.
Anyone with prior self study experience can do much better.
There's no way not to get bored and lose motivation.
There is no merit in learning something that is not wanted.
The only thing the educator can do is fire the passion of the students and _not_ hinder their progress.

Everyone that is 5 years out of highschool knows that you forget everything that you don't use.

EnjukuBlack Wrote:

mattyjaddy Wrote:Sidenote: Saying that college students want to be in their classes is a gross generalization that does not approach a resemblance of the truth. It is, perhaps, especially inappropriate for college language classes which are required for all students at most standard 4 year universities. Perhaps, it's different for classes in one's major. But even then there are many students who simply want the degree. They need the diploma for a job.

I agree.

When I taught Japanese at university, the ratio of serious, interested students to (ultimately) uninterested students was only marginally higher than when I taught at high school or middle school.

But there is a big difference between the two: Going to college is a CHOICE. When you sign up for any degree program in college you know that you are going to have to take certain classes, period. If you don't like it then you don't have to go. On the other hand public school education is mandatory, by law, until a certain age.


That being said I also agree that the overly "fun" classes suck and are a waste of time. This is the main reason I know jack squat about Spanish although I took it 1hr per day for 2 years of Highschool and actually passed the class just fine. I mean I literally walked out of class after two years not being able to string together even a simple sentence beyond a handful of tourist phrases. Our teacher was an absolute idiot who spend most of her time having us do "culture projects" regarding Mexico. We'd have little parties, watch movies regarding Mexican holidays, etc.

Now of course I think teachers should try to make classes enjoyable BUT they should never compromise on the efficiency that they can present the material to do so. Language study is simply a class where you can find enjoyable resources to teach from that will most likely INCREASE the amount of material you can cover in a given year. Some subjects are simply not as well catered to this so honestly it is pointless to compare. Calculus is never going to be really "enjoyable" no matter how great the teacher is because there is nothing really contextual that you can do with it. You can try to doll up any problem as much as you want and it doesn't matter. As soon as you start to solve the problem it is all stripped right back down to just a bunch of numbers and variables.

Calculus is very enjoyable; most people just don't like it.

igordesu Wrote:Lol. If you missed the point of me bringing the "math and science" thing into the discussion, you pretty much missed the point of my whole post.

I can't say that I have ever used anything beyond basic math in real life and have only used science because it is interesting to me. Every higher level math class I was required to take was a waste of time.