Hi! Anyone up for a small survey, for sheer interest sake and maybe some tips from others?

Question 1. When you use the flashcards on RevTK, do you always write the kanji on a piece of paper as you are being reviewed? If you fail, or when you get it right, or both?

Question 2. What's skill-level of Japanese are you aiming for when all is "said and done"?

Question 3. Where are those inspiring motivating feelings you get coming from, to enable you to keep on pushing past RTK1 when someone without them would just give up after the 50 kanji mark?

My answers:

1. I always write the kanji down, even if it's easy... Unless it's the kanji for One, Two, or Three. I find it has helped me be capable of writing very fast, as well as an overall better memory of the kanji.

2. I want to be able to speak, read, and write Japanese better than a college-educated young adult. I think it'll take me around 2 years to do so from this point.

3. Watching anime and listening to really cool anime characters really help motivate me a tiny bit when I'm somewhat feeling down, but the MAIN reason... is so I can subtitle anime and get that really cool feeling to having accomplished something so seemingly hard. Also, I want to watch anime without subtitles, too, and understand 100% of everything, even colloquialisms.

1) Sometimes yes, but generally not. I'm not writing the sentences either, but I think I'll start doing it soon.

2) Just enough to read the classics, the news, write poetry. Talk in a way a native won't notice Japanese is not my first language.

3) My belief that I will succeed.

1) When I review with Anki I write each a few times as I review. I save the reviews on this site for when I'm at work and I go through them quickly without writing them down whenever I have some free time.

2) Fluency.

3) I think I'm making up for a couple of decades of no motivation to accomplish anything whatsoever. As far as RTK1 goes... I was getting burnt out a bit so I slowed down for a couple weeks and focused on vocab and grammar. It's important to stay interested in what you're doing. You'll learn better and enjoy the process more.

1. I always write them out, even if i get it wrong.

2. I hope to be completely fluent with the ultimate goal of trying to be fluent to a point that a native would not know the difference between me and a true native.

3. The idea that I will hopefully move there for a long time or forever and to be able to find a job. And what the poster said above me too, the fact that I don't have any amazing achievements thus far in my life lol.... sad... Like a musical instrument for example. So I chose to try Japanese. I blame world of warcraft for my shortcomings!!!

1. I usually write them out with my fingers, not actually on a piece of paper. Works out okay, because I get enough writing practice anyway.
2. First being able to understand any kind of media, then if possible native level fluency.
3. What's motivating me is, that albeit small changes, I get a little better every day.

1. Always write them out - and if I mess up the writing, I fail the card. For me, RtK was as much about learning how to write the Kanji competently and quickly as it was about learning recognition.

2. My goal's to make my life here in Japan more enjoyable. I'll keep going until I feel pretty satisfied or Japanese becomes boring.

3. Everytime I accomplish a little more in conversation, it boosts my confidence a bit. But what REALLY motivates me is failing in conversation. Nothing makes me want to study more than looking like I don't know something. Living in Japan helps, too.

Question 1. I started out writing them, but I soon realized I was focusing more on writing than on stories. (visual vs imaginary memory) Now I write them in my mind as I run through the story, and try to minimize actual writing. I found this to the most effective method to learning kanji. However, prior to RtK, this method really difficult for me.

Question 2. a) Currently, I call myself barely-functional. Mid-intermediate textbook level, beginners real-world level. b) Proficiency

Question 3. Wasted an entire year learning hundreds and hundreds of kanji at a Sophia Univ. in Tokyo, only to forget 85+ percent.

1: I ALWAYS write the Kanji when reviewing. Failing a single stroke means failing a card.
I'm deeply passionate about calligraphy and Shodo. I strive to make my Kanji as beautiful as possible when I write them.

2: First step is general fluency, I want to feel like I can speak the language without feeling like I am making a conscious effort. When I feel that I am speaking and writing Japanese effortlessly, than that's good enough for me. But I think I might be crazy enough to go and memorize 6000 characters...

3: Actually, this board and the people posting here gives me a lot of motivation to study Kanji. Also, watching Japanese food products, and recognizing characters such as "goods", gives a wonderful feeling of some achievement.

1. ALWAYS write them out - strive for correctness and style.

2. Aiming to be able to read anything comfortably, without having to lookup.

3. Being able to read is motivation enough.

I don't get how hard it is to fail a stroke? Why do people mention failing a stroke. Once you know the stroke order it doesn't leave, it is so logical.And even the ones that AREN'T logical, are logical in their own way if that makes sense.

It confuses me so much when i see people "failing a card for a stroke" on these forums. The only time I've failed a kanji is when i don't remember a primitive in my story (which means i don't know the kanji at all). I've never failed because of forgetting a stroke, because if i know all the primitives then i know each one is written.

That being said most of the time i write them unless I'm hell tired from reviewing.

1. Yes
2. Reading academic level papers hopefully
3. Being able to get away from English keywords ASAP. The more i dig through heisig the more I understand why people are deferred from it. A popular one was Christine_tham on these forums.

liosama Wrote:I don't get how hard it is to fail a stroke? Why do people mention failing a stroke. Once you know the stroke order it doesn't leave, it is so logical.And even the ones that AREN'T logical, are logical in their own way if that makes sense.

I don't think most people are talking about stroke order - they probably mean adding an extra stroke, or missing a stroke in a Kanji, which isn't so uncommon in more complex Kanji.

Obviously, this should only happen if the story isn't recalled correctly or due to sloppiness in writing it back (hand goes into automatic-mode when writing Kanji sometimes...).

Question 1. When you use the flashcards on RevTK, do you always write the kanji on a piece of paper as you are being reviewed? If you fail, or when you get it right, or both?

Answer: No. I did for my first 200 kanji or so (when I reviewed) but I stopped doing it when I noticed it really didn't make a difference. If you know the placement and already know stroke order/kanji writing from experience before RtK, it will only slow you down. I did write the kanji every time I reviewed them out of the blue pile though, just to have felt the writing of the kanji at least once. I did keep writing kanji on my palm for quite a while, still do it from time to time depends on how well I think I know the kanji.

Question 2. What's skill-level of Japanese are you aiming for when all is "said and done"?

Answer: Perfect native fluency. I don't know if I will attain it but that's definitely where I'm aiming.

Question 3. Where are those inspiring motivating feelings you get coming from, to enable you to keep on pushing past RTK1 when someone without them would just give up after the 50 kanji mark?

Answer: I lived in Japan and learned Japanese there for a year, passed JLPT2. That's where motivation actually mattered. When I came home, I already knew Japanese but were afraid that I would lose my kanji reading abilities, so I found this method. My motivation for RtK was to simply get done with it so it would complement my already existing abilities. As for my motivation in Japan, it came from being in Japan of course

1. I almost always write out the kanji depends how i feel on the day

2. To reach fluency so i can live and work in Japan

3. As above my goal is to live and work in Japan and to do this i know i need fluency, probably the majority of the things i do/like are from Japan and i just love the culture so i'm very motivated plus i want to feel like i have achieved something that so many people seem to think is impossible.

1. Always write the kanji down. Always, always, always. Before I answer the card. If I get it wrong, I write down the correct one.

2. Native level.

3. I've already gone past RTK, but I'd say what pushed me through were my family/friends who would praise me if I learnt kanji, and still motivated me even though I didn't learn any. I just love getting all the "wow!"s. + It's depressing when you write on your Victory Calendar/Board that you didn't learn any new kanji.

+Will make Korean significantly easier.

1. I always wrote it out. Unlike Tobberoth, I think that each kanji, if you really know it, will only be written 10 times over a two year period if you're using an SRS. Recently, I've been doing it finger on the table (though for over a year it has been pen to paper).

2. Going for fluency, in reading, writing, listening and speaking. I'm not even close.

3. This board provides great motivation and advice to me even now. However, being able to follow manga and Japanese shows has really motivated me of late.

1. I always write it out. I want to be able to write just as well, or even better than, mos Japanese do. But I'm not shooting to be a calligraphist.

2. Literacy. I want to be able to read, write, listen and speak just as well as a native.

3. Speaking with my friends is always great motivation.

liosama Wrote:I don't get how hard it is to fail a stroke? Why do people mention failing a stroke. Once you know the stroke order it doesn't leave, it is so logical.And even the ones that AREN'T logical, are logical in their own way if that makes sense.

I fail strokes a lot when I write things in slightly the wrong direction. For example, the top stroke in kanji like 白 and 往... It faces a different direction in so many kanji that sometimes I get things mixed up. Other times it's kanji like 子 or 孔. When 子 is a primitive on the left side, the last stroke goes up at a more severe angle... If I forget to do that, well, it's fail time. In both cases (白 and 孔）, I might know the story and the stroke order, but it's the style that can get me messed up.

1. I always write out the kanji on paper. I try to make sure each stroke is in the correct style (see above), but I write quickly, and so it kind of looks sloppy at times. My goal here isn't to write in a beautiful style, it's just to make sure I remember exactly how to write the kanji with each stroke in its proper place. I do have an interest in writing calligraphy, but I study that (occasionally) outside of RTK.

2. I want to be completely fluent in Japanese. Maybe I'll become fluent, maybe not. Doesn't hurt to make that my goal, though. At the very least, it'll give me something to work on for many years (since it's gonna take me a LONG time to get fluent from the point I'm at now)!

3. Every little bit of accomplishing something helps motivation. Getting through RTK1 was motivating. Thinking to myself, "I have X number of kanji in the SRS" was a cool feeling. Now I'll have to do the same thing with sentences. Being able to acquire new words and use them makes me feel cool, too. A lot of things motivate me... That's good, I suppose, since the learning a language is such a huge task... One needs all the motivation one can get.

1. I write them in my mind with my mind-pen.

2. The goal is literacy. To be able to read a mystery, a newspaper, a blog, a bill, etc. without much, if any, look-up. Speaking and listening competently is enough; not shooting for fluency.

3. 3 things motivate me. Firstly, shame. Lived there 3 years. Studied on and off for 7 years. Still can't read the damn language? Sheesh! Secondly, I just like everything about the language. It's cool, and its difficulty is a motivator. To do a difficult thing well is its own reward. Finally, it's a stepping stone to Chinese.

Edited for style!

Ji_suss Wrote:Finally, it's a stepping stone to Chinese.

Everyone I know who has studied Chinese would probably say the opposite... Chinese grammar is very simple so learning decent Chinese should be easier than learning decent Japanese.

EDIT: Though I suppose one could always call one the stepping stone to the other since both use kanji/hanzi.

Murjab Wrote:I fail strokes a lot when I write things in slightly the wrong direction. For example, the top stroke in kanji like 白 and 往... It faces a different direction in so many kanji that sometimes I get things mixed up. Other times it's kanji like 子 or 孔. When 子 is a primitive on the left side, the last stroke goes up at a more severe angle... If I forget to do that, well, it's fail time. In both cases (白 and 孔）, I might know the story and the stroke order, but it's the style that can get me messed up.

But you see, these are consistences. Whenever 子 is written as a radical in the hen position, the last stroke is shifted up at a severe angle, ALWAYS. Likewise with the drop on white vs drop on candle-stick. They never change, drops are consistent on all kanji. This is where a little rote memorization may help or even checking forms of a character.

That being said, i think failing a character because of that is overkill :S

1. I always write the kanji, at least once when I'm first learning it, and at least once for each review of it. (IMO you can't learn kanji unless you can write it)

2. I want to be fluent. I want to be able to go onto 2ch, read everything and be able to post without anyone realizing I'm not japanese. Be able to watch any japanese show or anime, or read a manga or a book and fully understand. And especially, I want to be able to read stuff in Japanese as fast as I can read english.

3. I'm really bad at getting motivated, but when I'm playing a game in Japanese (FF12) or watching a show/anime and I'm able to understand some or recognize kanji, that's one of the big things that keep me going.

liosama Wrote:Whenever 子 is written as a radical in the hen position, the last stroke is shifted up at a severe angle, ALWAYS. Likewise with the drop on white vs drop on candle-stick. They never change, drops are consistent on all kanji. This is where a little rote memorization may help or even checking forms of a character.

You're absolutely right; that's why I fail them when I make a mistake... Since these kanji always use the same rules, there's no way I should ever mess it up. Having to go through it all from the beginning, maybe even the rote way, is the only way to make me remember those rules! Actually now I make those aforementioned mistakes much less frequently, if at all, but I used to catch myself doing that all the time. Perhaps it's a bit overkill to fail the kanji just for that, but in an SRS, it seems to all work itself out eventually.

1. Most of the time now. When I was learning hardcore there wasn't enough time so I used my figure or pictured it in my head.

2. Native fluency.

3. I don't think it's possible to be completely motivated and inspired to learn Japanese for a sustained period of time. I just try to make it a habit and try to get as much fun as I can from what I'm doing.

1.)I always write the kanji when I'm reviewing. It helps reinforce the kanji and is half the fun of learning them.
2.)When all is said and done I'd like my Japanese to be at least as good as my Spanish--which means I can have most normal conversations, albeit with grammatical slip-ups here and there. With more difficulty I can engage more in-depth conversations as well. So basically I can function confidently in Spanish while not needing to be able to read and write academic works.
3.)Right now my motivation is the stack of sealed Japanese DS games I've been purchasing, which I plan on using to mine sentences from and help build my vocabulary when I'm done with RtK1.