1. For "Failed", "Box 1", and "Box 2" I write them down, for "Box 3" and "Box 4" I will trace on my hand.

2. Fluency

3. Cause I want to. Just decided to start one day, and I've only paused once for about 3 days after starting (Beginning of Nov) and I have no intention of pausing/stopping until I finish. Although now I have a semi-reason for continuing, the college degree I am working for requires me to have 3 levels of a language, so I'm now trying to get semi-fluent before having to start the class.

1)I type the sentences and write the kanji in the air - usually
2)I would like acheive native level fluency
3) I`m done with RTK 1 now. This board was probably my greatest source of motivation. Hearing about the benifits that those who stuck it out were reaping and seeing that those people all had the same problems that I did was especially motivational.

1. I usually write the kanji, but if I don't have something to write with, or if getting something to write with would be a big bother, sometimes I'll just do them in my head. But that's a fairly new development, for most my time here I would always write them.

2. Japanese is completely a hobby for me. I can already understand anime (well, maybe if the anime was two people in a room talking about very abstract things not related to the room, I'd get lost, but then it's not an anime, it's a book-on-tape). In some sense, getting too good at Japanese would actually be bad for me, because my girlfriend thinks my accent is the cutest thing ever. I guess it would be great if I could confidently write blog articles in Japanese so I could share them with more people.

3. For me, I'm doing kanji in parallel with sentences, and the motivation comes from the enhanced grasp of the sentences.

1. I always write them during the review process, that way I have verifiable evidence of whether or not I got the Kanji right; I also think that it is good practice for learning to write the kanji kind of correctly. However while I am reviewing I do it all in my head, mainly though because I like to learn while I am walking around.

2. I don't have any desire to achieve native fluency, I just want to get to a level where I can have a decent conversation with someone and travel around Japan comfortably using only Japanese. Japan is great, but I wouldn't want to live or work here for a prolonged period of time, I like England too much.

3. Just my personal obsessive and compulsive nature. I can't speak any other languages, so why not Japanese?

Sorry to resurrect a slightly stale thread.

I just wanted to add my thoughts on practicing writing the kanji while studying them.

I think it is extremely beneficial to write them out, more than once, whenever you are studying them. Even if you only do so with your 'invisi-pen' on your desk.

There's a lot to be said for muscle memory.

I've been saved several times by it. There I am, sitting down to write a character, and I'm drawing a blank. I know how the character starts, so I just start writing it out, and it's like my hand just finishes the character for me. And, in most cases, it ends up being right - but only because I've written the character so many d@mn times.

And if that doesn't sell you on the idea of practicing writing kanji, then consider this: the more you write a character, the better you'll get at writing it in a skilled, natural manner. In other words, newcomers to Japanese often write their characters like a Japanese 1st grader might- or just like the block-style font that their textbooks print the kanji in. Of course, the Japanese will exclaim "Oh! You can write kanji! Sugo~i!" But, at the same time, they're thinking 'Isn't that cute. It looks just like a 7-year-old's writing/like my computer printer at home.' :mad:

(For those of you that don't know yet, having characters that look liked they've been printed from a computer are not desirable.)

I've worked long and hard at getting my characters to look at least comparable to those of your average college-educated Japanese person, including buying several of those ペン字 practice books (a good way to learn what handwritten characters are supposed to look like - something you'll never learn from Heisig. or most any other kanji textbook, for that matter).

Anyway, to answer the questionnaire of the OP:

1. Should be obvious, yes, I always practice writing them.
2. I want to pass 2級 of the 漢字検定.
3. I live, work, play, own a house, have a family and have otherwise set down roots here in Japan. There's no better motivation to get good than that.

1. I usually write down all kanji on graph paper with a pencil, crossing them out when I get them wrong. Additionally I circle kanji where I'm not sure about stroke order, etc. with a red pen. After my daily review I erase the crossed-out kanji and look up the stroke order of the circled ones. Then I pin the sheet on the wall behind my desk and take down yesterday's sheet.

2. Native-like fluency. Good enough for intellectual or academic discussion.

3. Too many to list here.

smujohnson Wrote:Question 1. When you use the flashcards on RevTK, do you always write the kanji on a piece of paper as you are being reviewed? If you fail, or when you get it right, or both?

No, but I always write 'em on the table with my finger.

smujohnson Wrote:Question 2. What's skill-level of Japanese are you aiming for when all is "said and done"?

I want to get to a level where I can have a decent conversation with someone. Being able to read Japanese newspapers would be great. I know it's a long journey but hey, one can dream, right?

smujohnson Wrote:Question 3. Where are those inspiring motivating feelings you get coming from, to enable you to keep on pushing past RTK1 when someone without them would just give up after the 50 kanji mark?

I'm just at the beginning so maybe I'm the wrong person to reply here.

Anyway, I can speak/read/write two (German, English) and a half (French) languages and I think it's not enough. Studying Japanese will open me the door to a rich and fascinating culture and one day it will enable me to converse with 125 million people. This should be motivation enough, really. I have not yet been to Japan, but one day I will visit. I know I will. One day...

I wrote every kanji once per review until the ~1000. After that I stopped. The important thing is focus on the mental images with the actual ojects instead of the elements of the kanji. Of course writing would not harm it, I'm just too lazy.

No, wait. I was never known for great retention rates. Actualy I am known for having terrible retention. You should just ignore this advice.

My goal is to be able to read, listen , write and speak better than I do with english. Actualy I'm not a great spokesman even in portuguese, so I want to improve that too.

1) I right it once before showing the answer. If it's one I've forgotten I'll write it after I've seen the answer.

2) I'm aiming towards fluency.

3) Fluency and eventually landing a job in Japan that's not teaching English are my main motivations.

1. I always write the kanji, usually on graph paper, during reviews and revisiting failed cards. I write the kanji once for the flashcards and around three or more times each time I review the failed ones.

2. Someday, I want to be fluent at Japanese. I want to be able to read manga, watch anime, and browse Japanese websites and understand most, if not all, of what is written or said.

3. There's actually a lot of things that motivate me to continue RtK, but I'll list the most important ones. First of all, I think I would have stopped long ago if it wasn't for this site, especially the story sharing section. Thanks to everyone who shared their stories! Second, I have a few books on learning Japanese in my room. I promised myself I would really break into them after I finish RtK. I'm really itching to really get into them, and they motivate me in a strange sort of way to keep going. Lastly, I love being able to recognize the little buggers on websites, food packages (My mom buys stuff from a Korean market.), and even my shampoo bottle the shower. Sure I can't actually read it, but being able to recognize the characters gives me a little boost in confidence.

Question 1. At first i kind of drew the min my head, then i started drawing them on paper, now on days where I have WAY TOO MANY reviews, i will trace them in the air, but at this point it just doesn't feel right, but for the lack of time I have to dedicate vs the workload sometimes I need to do this method. Otherwise if I have time I will ALWAYS write it in my notebook, it really does help immensly.

Question 2. Fluent enough to get by in whatever typical situations I could possibly be thrust into without sounding like an idiot. I'd like to say true "Fluency" but it's a term thrown around a little loosely so rather than put that, I will say it more precisely. I shouldn't have to stop and think about grammar patterns, vocab, etc unless it is something really strange and that i do not use much ( hey we all sometimes can't think of a word or something in english ) I don't care if I have an accent, everyone does, I just want to be able to speak, understand, read, write everyday Japanese.

Question 3. Anyone quitting after the 50 mark should go back to playing video games and stay there, Japanese is not for the faint of heart, I did 146 in my first day, and di the last 395 over a long weekend ^^ Apparently this is past some 1 WAN barrier, whatever that means.

I did have some health/moving/work issues making it impossible to study ( or really even sleep for that matter ) and still finished in great time, it's all about knowing your goals and doing what it takes to achieve them. Honestly the toughest times were at about 1300-1500 when the reviews were really piling up, but if they are piling up that much you are doing something right, and working hard ( assuming it's the daily reviews swamping you, not a backup, that just makes you lazy )

My motivation comes from community, people knowing what I am doing, and holding me accountable if I fail, this really helped more than anything.

Friends don't let Friends quit RTK

Peace

1. I don't use RevTK for reviews anymore, but when reviewing in Anki, it depends on what kind of card it is. If it's a Heisig card (i.e. keyword to kanji, and only one kanji per card), I always write them out, and if it's a sentence card, I write out the kanji whenever I feel the need for practice.

2. Native fluency, and a lot more kanji than necessary. For now, I'm content with being able to write the kanji in RtK 1 and 3, and a few more, so I've put the kanji project on hold while I brush up my skill in other aspects of the language. However, I eventually plan to learn at least 6000 kanji, just for the heck of it.

3. 笑, People actually give up after 50? To me, it makes more sense to give up after Heisig stops offering pre-packaged stories. My sources of motivation have changed over time. At first, I didn't really have any, which is why I had to start over from the beginning of RtK1... twice... Once I found this site, the community and the visual representation of the card stacks were my main sources of motivation. Then, after I passed the halfway mark, the frame numbers themselves motivated me. At this point, I started making notes of my current frame number in my calendar.
Having finished RtK1, I believed that I could tackle RtK3 using the momentum from the first book, and pretty much rushed through it. That didn't work, and I realized that I needed a break from (new) kanji. I switched to Anki and started mining sentences. Eventually, I noticed that it was easier for me to remember words for which I knew the kanji (even those usually written as kana). This became my reason to give RtK3 another shot and actually finish it.
Post-RtK3, I study Japanese with my improving proficiency as a source of motivation in and of itself. The thrill of hearing or reading a sentence and realizing that I can actually understand it never gets old. While I may have gotten through RtK by forcing myself to believe that it was possible, there is nothing forced about it anymore. I can and will learn Japanese, and that's a good enough reason to keep going.

My kanjis are so ugly it seriously ***** hurts my eyes... *sigh*



And thousands of errors today. Oh well. I'll just keep on practicing! :\

I think I've written about 500 pages since I started in July 07. Granted, it started out slowly as it was only RTK. Once I started vocabulary and grammar sentences on top of that in Jan 08, the amount just kept building.

500 pages and still have atrocious handwriting. Eh, I'll not worry about the paint job when the car not able to run yet. Of course, my handwriting is bad in English, so why should I expect more from Japanese?

1. Yeah, I write it every time... sometimes multiple times if it doesn't look good.
2. Complete literacy and hopefully functional fluency.
3. Every time I see a kanji that I don't know, I am inspired to keep going forward. Sometimes I'll learn a kanji out of the context of RTK and I'll rush, just because I want to hurry and get to it in the book (which is why I have "Test Cards Added Yesterday (44)" in my review page right now ).

1. I usually write the kanji as I'm reviewing, but if I can't or don't feel like it (or it's really simple, like "one") then I may not. If I write the kanji wrong I'll rewrite it, but if I write the wrong kanji (e.g. I mix up "regret" and "remorse") then I don't bother. In that case, I just focus on the story.

2. Well, JLPT1 was one of my goals, and I passed that recently. So now I'm not sure. I'd like to be able to pick up a random novel and not have difficulty reading it, or to watch any show about any topic without missing so many words. I can watch the shows I want and enjoy them, but I want to reduce the number of unknown words.

3. Part of it is simply the fact that I like numbers. I like seeing my kanji count go up. Also I like that RTK is something that I can "finish". I know that I'll never be "done" learning Japanese, but RTK is a concrete goal that is possible to complete.

1) I write them down if I'm learning them for the first time, and each time thereafter until I feel pretty comfortable with it. I used to write them all out all the time, but I found this was adding unnecessary time to my reviews. I also use a graphics tablet (Wacom Bamboo, nothing too fancy), which is nice and makes writing them a bit more fun. It's worth the splurge, especially if you're looking to reward yourself for progress you've made already.

2) JLPT 1 and a "3" on the ILR scale. I'd like to be able to read at a university level, and carry on a conversation without any major obstacles to being understood by a native speaker. It's unrealistic to think you'll be able to understand every word someday; even as a well-read native speaker of English there are plenty of words I come across that I don't know, mispronounce, or have to look up the spelling of. I'd just like to reach a point where the parts I don't understand aren't a significant barrier to communication anymore.

3) Actually, Anki's scheduling took most of the "need to be motivated" part out of it for me. Once I got into a routine it's pretty much cruise control to sit down for an hour and fifteen minutes or so to learn 20 new characters and review the old ones. Otherwise, I know reviews will start piling up and I'll lose all the progress I've made. Usually I study on my lunch break at work, since I'm looking for something else to do and I'm generally at my highest state of alertness in the middle of the day. I've actually decided to stop learning new kanji at the halfway point (frame 1021) and switch to Simplified Mandarin, but am still keeping up with reviews of old Japanese stuff so can come back to it later if I want. Already, the review times are starting to dwindle, which makes me optimistic that if I do make it all the way to the end of the course, the stuff will stick with me long-term. Also, the previous experience with the RtK course makes Heisig's RtSH course a lot quicker.

stoked Wrote:My kanjis are so ugly it seriously ***** hurts my eyes... *sigh*

fishing for compliments, eh? ;-)

I always write them, even the easy ones. It makes them easier to remember, and besides, I simply like writing them - the flow of the strokes, and the sense of achievement on seeing a whole page covered in Kanji, makes reviews more enjoyable. If I fail a card, I'll write the correct Kanji (usually after complaining to myself about similar keywords, which is my most common reason for failing >_<). I circle those I failed more than once, and stick a post-it note with that character on to my door.

Fluency, I guess, though I'm more concerned with reading than spoken fluency. This is probably easier in a way, except the books I really want to read happen to be medieval (yup, Tale of Genji etc.), and thus are written in an older form of Japanese. How different this is, I honestly don't know (I was surprised to find the first sentence in the original didn't entirely break Rikaichan, so maybe it isn't so bad...), and may well be better off not knowing. I'm studying Medieval literature in English, and wanted to explore the literature of the same period in another language. I could have taken the sensible option and learnt Old French, but everyone seems to do that, so where's the fun? Oddly enough, there also don't seem to be many videogames in Old French, which is a definite bonus with Japanese.
So, I guess I'm really aiming for more than average native level fluency, judging by how English people generally react when I show them anything in Middle English ('What is that gibberish? Double Dutch?'). I also guess that I'm probably completely insane, but I know it's theoretically possible, so...

I find doing RTK itself motivational. It's fun, and I was surprised to find I like Kanji. I can't believe I was put off studying Japanese for so long because I believed people who said it was impossible for non-native speakers to ever really learn them. Seeing one I recognise gives a real sense of achievement, even though I know there's a lot more to do before I can actually read (Occasionally things sort of make sense, though, which is pretty cool. 'Tea...villa? Well, it's a cafe, so I guess that works'). Ditto hearing a word I know in a song, with the added bonus that this happens surprisingly often, since it seems to be obligatory for songs to include words like 'hikari', 'kokoro' or 'kaze'. Doing RTK also confirms to me, despite how little I currently know, that I am serious about learning Japanese, which is also encouraging.

Also, (self) bribery. I get a PS3 when I finish, which I then hope to eventually use to play Japanese games on, thus learning more Japanese. I bought it beforehand, to torment myself with, since I can see it but not play it, knowing that I would feel too guilty to enjoy playing games on it if I quit.

smujohnson Wrote:Hi! Anyone up for a small survey, for sheer interest sake and maybe some tips from others?

Question 1. When you use the flashcards on RevTK, do you always write the kanji on a piece of paper as you are being reviewed? If you fail, or when you get it right, or both?

Question 2. What's skill-level of Japanese are you aiming for when all is "said and done"?

Question 3. Where are those inspiring motivating feelings you get coming from, to enable you to keep on pushing past RTK1 when someone without them would just give up after the 50 kanji mark?

1. So far I am always writing them out. Usually on small scraps of paper, occasionally using the finger-on-the-palm technique. I fail it if I write it wrong -- decameron has been bugging me as I keep doing a mouth rather than a sun in it, even when I think to myself, "Ah, decameron, that's a tied up day. Gah! No! I stopped with just a mouth again!"

2. Fluency, I would like to be able to speak, read, and write. I want to be able to read Japanese web sites, manga, and novels. I want to be able to write letters and emails in Japanese. I am viewing it as a long-term, keep whatever I learn and always be ready to gain a little more, project.

3. I'd say this site helps with not giving up. Simply knowing that it will keep track of which ones have passed reviews and which have failed makes it much easier. Much the same as Mnemosyne and Anki are helping with studying other things. Additionally, I have to admit that part of me simply wants to be able to say, "Yes, I've passed the whole first volume. Flip to the back of the book, pick any of those keywords and I'll prove it." But if ego stroking can be put to good use why not do so?

I also happen to have materials that are in Japanese. If I want to ever read them I will have to make the kanji mine. Otherwise what was the point of spending the money on those books and manga (I'm using a similar incentive with Spanish as well).

Also I am not rushing through the book, so I don't have huge fail piles to sit ominously in front of me when I sign in. I know many people do try and get through the whole first book in just a few months, but I'm willing to take my time. Pushing to get through them quickly does make since to me if you will be starting further Japanese study either while you are working through RtK1 or just as soon as you finish the book. In my case I am currently treating Spanish as my main foreign language subject. I am working through RtK1 to lay the ground work for picking up Japanese after I have progressed further with Spanish. Learning the forms of the kanji appears to be separated enough from studying Spanish vocabulary, sentences, and grammar that there doesn't appear to me to be any interference. In perhaps a year when I give Japanese more attention I expect that having completed RtK1 (and the old 1st edition Remembering the Hiragana and Remembering the Katakana books) will have built up a nice foundation to work from.

Nukemarine Wrote:1. I always wrote it out. Unlike Tobberoth, I think that each kanji, if you really know it, will only be written 10 times over a two year period if you're using an SRS. Recently, I've been doing it finger on the table (though for over a year it has been pen to paper).

With my SRS, a character which one never fails would be presented 20 times a year.

It alternates presenting the character (enter the keyword) and presenting the keyword (choose from one of 5 similar kanji presented).

In the latter case I write the kanji before glancing at the 5 options.

Here's how I'd answer, so far anyway:

1. Yes, I always write the kanji while reviewing. Lately, rather than rewriting the kanji immediately when I get it wrong, I've been making lists with headings like "Failed 2/27" and looking them over again that day, whether or not I also add new kanji. As for ugly kanji, mine are still plenty ugly. Hopefully I can get them to be less so in time.

2. I guess I'm hoping to be able to visit Japan someday, and get around successfully while there, understand what's going on, and successfully carry out conversations with native speakers. I don't expect to be mistaken for a native speaker, in either my speaking or my writing, as I am certain most people would instantly be able to tell I'm an American anyway.

3. My motivation? Well, I love learning new stuff, and I've been fascinated with languages in particular all my life. Also, I had at least that same minimal level of competence in German about 20 years ago, and would like to get it back someday, so it seems reasonable to aim for at least the same in Japanese. If I achieve both goals, I think I'd like to learn Spanish to at least that same level too, since I sometimes feel very ignorant due to not knowing more than a few words of that language.

1. I write everything. At this point, I even write out all my reviews in sentence decks as well, since I'm just starting, and there are still so few of them. I know that once I finish RTK (within the week, I hope) and move hard-core into chasing down vocabulary and adding sentences, I won't be able to write them all out. But for now, it's all kosher.

For the record, I find that while I still don't have beautiful handwriting (especially when it comes to a certain few kanji and primitives; curse you, 女！）, it has gotten a lot better--and a good deal faster, as well.

2. I'm shooting, at least at first, for literacy. For me, reading in a target language is the quickest way to all-around competence in that language; one of the biggest challenges about Japanese has been that I can't use a lot of my "standard" language acquisition methods to pick it up.

3. It's been said and said again, but I'll add my voice to the chorus. Working with an SRS system like RevTK or Anki sets up a routine which, once established, makes it easy to keep going, and to keep track of progress made. Quiet, but powerful things, as far as motivation goes. I'll also say that community has been incredibly motivating for me so far. I haven't been here very long, but seeing so many people working towards their goals in Japanese is pretty inspirational. It keeps me on my game. Thanks for that.

EnjukuBlack Wrote:...buying several of those ペン字 practice books (a good way to learn what handwritten characters are supposed to look like - something you'll never learn from Heisig. or most any other kanji textbook, for that matter).

Actually the earlier edition of Heisig has an index with real ペン字．
It's my model for handwriting.

Sadly i had to go to the Japan Foundation to photocopy it, because the current edition of RTK has only the computer-generated "handwritten" list in the back (what a crazy oxymoron, eh?). It's my biggest beef with RTK.

Sorry to sidetrack...

frlmarty Wrote:

stoked Wrote:My kanjis are so ugly it seriously ***** hurts my eyes... *sigh*

fishing for compliments, eh? ;-)

?