Hashiriya Wrote:japanese survival phrase #1
先輩！！奢って下さい！！！

Haha! Perfect!

bodhisamaya Wrote:Anything done actively with Japanese I would consider studying. I watch Japanese TV two hours a day actively and consider that study time. If Japanese music is in the background while doing something else, it gets kudos but I doubt much would be retained.

Oh Ok, thank god I thought people meant drilling SRS and writing for 10 hours.

Erubey Wrote:

bodhisamaya Wrote:Anything done actively with Japanese I would consider studying. I watch Japanese TV two hours a day actively and consider that study time. If Japanese music is in the background while doing something else, it gets kudos but I doubt much would be retained.

Oh Ok, thank god I thought people meant drilling SRS and writing for 10 hours.

Ditto.

The SRS is a strange system where the more work you put in, the more work you have to do. I doubt any healthy human being could go at it for 10 hours.

Does half listening to Japanese audio count as study? Sometimes I'll listen to it via my iPod when I take the dog out.

Got until Jan 12 before school starts again, so I decided against working over the winter break and commit to doing as much RtK as possible. I haven't hit 10 hrs a day mark yet. The longer I study, the easier I get distracted. Like today, there I was, studying at around 5:30, I turned my head for what seemed like 5 minutes and it was midnight. Distractions, distractions.

I've got the way, and my will is still holding up. Tho, I've been hitting the RtK forums, and AJATT for motivation/encouragement increasingly.

I'm at 950 atm. Perhaps I should aim for 10 hours a day and hit 3007 before February.

School is making it pretty much impossible to study that much.
4 hours maximum is what I can put in. But it'll be winter break soon so I can put in alot of hours. -squee-

Wow,

makes me feel like I have the wrong job. I usually can't study more than 2 hours a day. On really busy days it's even less than 1 hour. Of course I study like crazy on my few days off.

And yes I get some Japanese input at work, but it's really not much so I don't consider it as studying at all. (although I've learned some really interesting words and phrases through this already XD)

there's a lot of free time that you can make that you probably don't realize you have... just avoid doing almost anything in English once you get home... if you work 8 hour shifts, i just suggest going to bed as soon as you get home from work and wake up and study until you have to go back to work again you need a fresh mind to study good anyways....

Erubey Wrote:

bodhisamaya Wrote:Anything done actively with Japanese I would consider studying. I watch Japanese TV two hours a day actively and consider that study time. If Japanese music is in the background while doing something else, it gets kudos but I doubt much would be retained.

Oh Ok, thank god I thought people meant drilling SRS and writing for 10 hours.

Fortunately, watching media is much less strenuous than purely drilling an SRS and writing all day long. Audio and visual media allows your mind to wander just enough even during active study. Actually, I believe that some people could have a nervous breakdown if they SRS too much.

I put in like.. 4-5 hours a day at work (ALT in Japan, so most probably know how that goes). This is almost purely doing reps/learning grammar/writing stuff, as I have no internet connection and no other distractions beside my netbook with no apps besides Anki and a few other essential, not-so-fun utilities. I've a few grammar books (Basic Connections, Effective Japanese Usage Dictionary, and Dictionary of Japanese Particles are the three I use the most right now) that I generally browse through and create Anki cards with.

Anyways, my job actually created this pretty incredible situation where I study to make the day go by faster, keeping my motivation pretty high. Much better than just hanging out and doing nothing at my desk for the 60-70% of the time I'm at my job with nothing to do.

Every morning when I wake up, I try to spend 30-40 minutes before I leave doing Anki reps. This is sorta like a game, where I race to see how many I can do before I have to leave my house. I like to hit work with no reps to do (as I also clear them before I go to sleep). Then I just keep up on them throughout the day.

To and from work (a 10 minute walk, 10-15 minute wait at the bus station, and 40 minute bus ride in a comfortable express bus) - during this time, I usually have the headphones in listening to podcasts while reading some Manga or other (slogging through Death Note). I usually just highlight words I don't know for review later (with a highlighter, my manga are all pretty ugly now. heh) and keep moving along, as writing on the bus is difficult and I don't have a portable dictionary... I usually read the same comic a few times. Peel back the layers of understanding, like an onion.

Also these days, I've been ripping audio from some anime and then printing out the transcriptions (namely, Cowboy Bebop right now) and listening to it during my commute while reading it.

When I get home, I usually start up my media player which'll kick a random anime (usually from Samurai Champloo, Cowboy Bebop, Death Note - repetition, repetition, repetition... onions, onions, onions.)

While that's rolling, I like to browse Japanese websites a lot. Some examples:
Yahoo! 知恵袋, Yahoo! MLB, コトノハ. English invades my life here as I get sucked into the English internet (i.e. this site, e-mailing, some Facebooking, and people pestering me up on GoogleTalk). I like to keep Anki open and do 10-15 reviews every once in a while, but don't really put any pressure on myself to do this. If I don't feel like it, I know that the next morning I'll hit it hard again before I go to the school and there's always time to catch up there. It's that no-pressure atmosphere that really has been motivating for me - I don't HAVE to study, so I feel like studying. heh..

Usually I'll be inputting some stuff into Anki while I'm going about this.. just if something catches my eye, or whatever.

Mostly, I don't put any restrictions on myself at all while I'm at home. If I feel like doing nothing, I do nothing... again, it's this no pressure atmosphere that leads me right back to wanting to study Japanese instead of zoning out to an English movie or something. That's actually a lie - I've banned completely English television. American TV these days has too many quality shows that will literally suck HOURS UPON HOURS out of your life if you're not careful. I can name off so many shows that, while really entertaining, I really wish I had those hours back. heh...

Scattered throughout this are my daily interactions, which I try to keep as much in Japanese as possible. Some teachers I work with use me for English practice, which is alright, though I've no foreign friends here so that really cuts down on the "recreational" English I use... I haven't really talked to a native speaker in person in about a month. heh...

I've only been at this pace for maybe 3 months (well, really in the beginning it was less though it kinda ramped up to this pace over the first month). That's when I moved to this area and took this job. Before this, I worked at a conversation school for about a year - which filled my days with many classes, kinda fried my brain, and sapped my will to live/learn Japanese. My studying time then was like 1-2 hours a day, apart from the whole "living in Japan" thing.

Obviously, I've seen huge improvements. I did RTK1 and about another 500 Kanji I felt were useful in a few months, wrote up a kanji town/chain like onyomi mnemonic system, while still keeping good pace on my grammar/vocab studies. Before this sorta "phase" of my life started, as ridiculous as that sounds, I felt like the "year" of studying I'd done was sorta a waste. It felt like Japanese wasn't quite possible. RtK helped with that a lot, I think.

It's also worth noting that I spoke zero Japanese before I came to Japan about a year and a half ago. And I feel like I spent about half that time just learning HOW to study a language. heh...

This all said, I'm still really self conscious speaking Japanese (when not drinking...heh. quite the opposite after a few beers). Honestly, I'm overly concerned about making mistakes and looking stupid. That's a difficult hurdle. And I don't speak Japanese to people who can speak English better than I can speak Japanese. It just doesn't make sense. heh...

I don't really feel obsessed, though. There's just not much better to do and I'm pretty entertained by it. I'm not really pushing myself at all (except for maybe my early morning reps), which had the opposite effect I think most people might experience and increased my studying. I guess it's because it doesn't feel like studying, just hanging out and doing whatever I want (which just happens to be learning a little Japanese).

Anyways, some "total count" of hours put into it seems kind of impossible to guess. I'll say, I put a very good portion of each day into it. heh...

Sorry for the long, wandering post... and hello everyone.

Edited: Changed "I did RTK1 and about another 1000 Kanji" to "I did RTK1 and about another 500 Kanji." I actually chose not to do RtK3 and just added some high frequency Kanji and then some that keep popping up in places. I just guestimated the amount of Kanji I learned but upon rereading I realized that would've brought me up to "finished RtK3" level, which I haven't done. So I looked at my deck and sure enough, I only had about 500 over RtK1. Oops

Ben_Nielson Wrote:I've only been at this pace for maybe 3 months (well, really in the beginning it was less though it kinda ramped up to this pace over the first month). That's when I moved to this area and took this job. Before this, I worked at a conversation school for about a year - which filled my days with many classes, kinda fried my brain, and sapped my will to live/learn Japanese. My studying time then was like 1-2 hours a day, apart from the whole "living in Japan" thing.

Then you know how I feel right now and that I just don't have more time than 1-2 hours a day *sigh* (x__X)
Your lifestyle sounds like a dream to me *envious*

@Hashiriya: There's really not more time. I do study in the morning before I go to work (because I don't start before 2pm anyway), but there's always other stuff before work that needs to be done, too.
When I come home I usually listen to Japanese music, turn on the tv (Japanese only of course) and every night I read something in Japanese, but I don't count that as studying.

Ben_Nielson Wrote:It's that no-pressure atmosphere that really has been motivating for me - I don't HAVE to study, so I feel like studying
.
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Mostly, I don't put any restrictions on myself at all while I'm at home. If I feel like doing nothing, I do nothing... again, it's this no pressure atmosphere that leads me right back to wanting to study Japanese instead of zoning out to an English movie or something.
.
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I don't really feel obsessed, though. There's just not much better to do and I'm pretty entertained by it. I'm not really pushing myself at all (except for maybe my early morning reps), which had the opposite effect I think most people might experience and increased my studying. I guess it's because it doesn't feel like studying, just hanging out and doing whatever I want (which just happens to be learning a little Japanese).

These are definitely the key points to your post and why your method is working. Funny enough I only realized that this type of method works right after taking the JLPT.

I was so focused on studying for the JLPT, and put an enourmous amount of pressure to get X amount done by the time the JLPT rolled around, something inside me rebelled and my studies came to an utter standstill.

The second the JLPT ended I knew I didn't have to know anything by any particular date, so the hours I've been putting in lately have been phenominal. There is no pressure, and I like studying, so I have been doing a lot of studying. If I get bored with a certain text book, manga, etc, I simply put it down and switch to something else now, rather than force myself through it. Doing this has lead to a huge increase in productivity.

The last key element has been timeboxing my Anki and RTK reviews. I had no idea how simple of an idea could lead to so much more reps being done.

samesong Wrote:The last key element has been timeboxing my Anki and RTK reviews. I had no idea how simple of an idea could lead to so much more reps being done.

Can you elaborate? I don't know what this simple idea of 'timeboxing' is.

radical_tyro :
If I understand correctly, "timeboxing" is setting small time limits for yourself and seeing how much you can do in that limit.

Like, you're saying to yourself "Bleh, I'm not in the mood to study but I have all these reviews." Just grab a timer, set it for 10 minutes, and see how much you can get done. You'll be surprised by the kinda incredible efficiency that using a timer creates.

Although myself, I don't like timeboxing - I always feel like I'm rushing myself when I do it.


samesong :
Yeah, that's basically it. I never really thought about it too much until I wrote that post and that idea kept popping up. heh... though people have asked me why I study Japanese before. I almost always just tell them "Because it's fun." which is 100% the truth. I have no intention of taking the JLPT, no kinda goals for some kind of job where I have to use Japanese (translator or something), and had no real interest at all in Japanese before I came to Japan.

I study Japanese because I wound up in Japan, the language is pretty interesting, and I've got a lot of free time so I need something to keep me entertained. Simple enough

@chochajin, what kinds of other things do you have to do? as for me... i've let a lot of my daily things slide like cleaning my house, talking to people on the phone, and playing videogames (in english)... those were my major time killers and since i have mostly eliminated them now, i am getting much more studying done (although my house is pretty dirty at the moment lol)

studying intensively all day long will definitely kill your brain... when i study on iKnow for 6 hours in a day i literally become physically sick feeling... sometimes i study myself into a stupor and i just lay on my couch with my head spinning while constantly having japanese words go around in my mind... does anybody else experience this too? it seems that 6 hours is about my limit in a day of active studying... the rest has to be passive...

radical_tyro Wrote:

samesong Wrote:The last key element has been timeboxing my Anki and RTK reviews. I had no idea how simple of an idea could lead to so much more reps being done.

Can you elaborate? I don't know what this simple idea of 'timeboxing' is.

As others stated, it's just setting aside chunks of time and doing nothing but concentrating on the current task at hand. I personally like to use this egg timer, set it as always on top, and start my reviews using Anki. As long as I see that clock ticking, then I'm 100 perecent concentrated on getting my reviews done.

A few reasons why timeboxing is powerful:

-You only have 24 hours in one day, and it's up to you to use them as efficently as you can. Even people that say they study "10 hours a day" aren't - go back and read some posts where people say they longer they study, the less concentrated their studies are.

-Once you start that clock and see it counting down, you enter this almost trance/zen-like state, where nothing matters but that sole, single task at hand. 20 concentrated minutes for me is equal to up to an hour or more of an unconcentrated state. This means during those 20 minutes, I don't:
-go to the bathroom
-eat
-drink
-listen to the radio/TV (background music actually keeps my pace, though),
-answer any incoming text messages
-crack my knuckles
-quickly take a peak at my email
-etc etc. I think you get the idea

Everybody is guilty of doing these things while they study. And while they often seem very minor, they really do add up. Stripping away all of these tiny things and devoting your complete self to a task will give you phenominal results.

Ben_Nielson Wrote:Although myself, I don't like timeboxing - I always feel like I'm rushing myself when I do it.

I initially had this problem too, but I found if you take one simple measure this problem disappears; hide the very bottom portion of the Anki screen when reviewing. Don't allow yourself to see that x / x / x count at the very bottom. If you don't know how many cards are left, you don't feel rushed to get a certain amount done, because you don't know what that amount is.

Ten hours really is no problem.

I mean, it might be a problem if you're supposed to be working or something, but assuming you've got the time...

I sometimes do 10 hours+ daily. Those are usually on the days where i finish my school work early and have few days off. (I usual have 2-3 days off, which for the majority of the time it's all Japanese. But majority of the time, it's just doing SRSing for around 1 hour and immersion for the rest.

I spend 10 hours a day on this forum. Actually scarily it's probably 2. How does one even manage that??

I study mostly passively (besides kanken I guess, and reviews but that's review) now and I'm usually engaged in Japanese for about 6 hours a day minimum. Most of my learning happens probably over the space of 1 hour. The rest is pure reinforcement of what I know I guess. 10 hours active study a day is a real face melter if you ask me. I remember doing 4 - 6 hours of active study for long periods and that took it's toll on me.

I can't tell whether I'm obsessed with reaching the goal of uberpwnageレベルな日本語 or whether I'm just so wrapped up in the process and having so much fun with it that I feel so insanely motivated. I think it's a bit of both.

I've adopted a bit of a motto lately and that is: 勉強より学ぶ

Great for those who can do it

10 hours of studying... that would be life. Nothing on the mind but japanese .

@mezbup
Same here, i usually do all my reviews within 1-2 hours max and just keep listening+watching japanese stuff for almost the whole day, aside from doing my school work,etc. But rest is passive. I'm just trying nowadays to find more ways to effectively study more. I read hear that somebody reached conversational level Japanese in around 3 months.

10hours? Wow! Even without any sleep I wouldn't be able to do it. Where to take those 10 hours from anyway??
And I can't imagine studying 10hrs per day anyway. Actually I'm not even sure that it's sooo effective.

chochajin Wrote:10hours? Wow! Even without any sleep I wouldn't be able to do it. Where to take those 10 hours from anyway??
And I can't imagine studying 10hrs per day anyway. Actually I'm not even sure that it's sooo effective.

My mini immersion environment is what makes it so many hours in the day. I probably spend an hour reading news and other articles when they crop up and out of that I pick up about 30+ words a day which is where the real benefits come. Then there's reviews which take 30 mins tops... the rest is just listening to stuff or watching stuff for fun and not really studying at all but just using the language for entertainment. 10hours of textbook study a day would make me wanna die.

Dividing things up into 'mini immersion' environments works for me too, centered around themes and timeboxes, etc. These days I often 'move sideways' if I get tired of one thing or until I catch up on other things when I fall behind, creating new decks for different sources, focusing on different media, etc. Don't even notice the time or what's active/passive study or think about falling behind in general anymore, especially once I passed what I felt was a foundation point in all aspects of the language.

I think once you've passed that foundational point it sorta feels like it's all downhill from there on out. It's no longer a struggle to learn but just something that winds up occurring. いいね