how do these people get haircuts if the barber doesn't know english? very awkwardly i suppose. i found it extremely rewarding to make small talk while getting a hair cut in japan.

and this is only 1 situation. there are so many others where i'd feel like a complete ass if i couldn't communicate in japanese. i guess their threshold is much higher.

Getting a haircut was one of my strangest experiences in Japan. They shave everything. I have never had my forehead shaved before. I didn't even know there was hair on my forehead!!!

bodhisamaya Wrote:Getting a haircut was one of my strangest experiences in Japan. They shave everything. I have never had my forehead shaved before. I didn't even know there was hair on my forehead!!!

amazing isn't it? the best shave i've ever had. the brush, the scary blade, the steamy towels, the fancy creams and fluids. sometimes a massage.

one of the last things i did before leaving japan was go to the barber even though my hair wasn't in dire need of a cut

Dragg Wrote:Barking orders could be construed as rude no matter what language you are speaking in. Of course there are rude foreigners who expect the locals to bend over backwards, but there are also some who smile, pick out whatever they want to buy at a store by themselves, nod a greeting to the cashier, and leave with no problem. In fact, the shopkeep should be happy because he just increased his sales. I don't see how failing to learn a language is INHERENTLY rude so long as you accept the sacrifices of not being able to communicate better.

Clerk: Paper or plastic.
Customer (after a long pause): Yes.
Repeat X times.
Clerk: umm...I'll just give you plastic.
Customer (pointing to paper bag): Yes plastic.

This sort of interaction tends to happen more often than the skilled silent shopper type scenerio.

But that's not what I mean by rude. I'll use something way out there to get my point across.

So a nudist enters into a church. Walks to the front row and has a seat. The nudist isn't really harming anyone. He's just been living in his nudist world were he was nude ever since he was born. It's not his fault the people within the area he moved into wear clothes, yet for some reason people find him to be very rude. Does he want to be rude? No. Is he trying to be rude? Of course not. But he'll be seen as rude until he puts on some darned clothes.

Now you may say that learning a language is for more complex than putting on clothing. I say size doesn't matter.

Now lets extend that analogy a little further. Let say this guy is foreign and comes from Nudangeles. He speaks Nudangelian. Everyone he passes shout "put on some freaking clothes you moron." But he's just in his carefree little world. "Oh what is this gibberish these people speak? Why do they give such weird looks?" He meets up with another Nudangelian and a conversation ensues. "Why they people keep giving me such nasty looks," say Nude1. "I don't know. Do you think they might be xenophobic, or worse R-A-C-I-S-T?" "I can't tell, but it's driving me crazy."

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOOL

Ya understand now

Edit: Actually after typing all that I change my stance from "it is rude" to "it can be rude." Different strokes different folks 8)

It's not at all fair to compare a value-bound lifestyle like nudism to a language skill. A language skill is based primarily on ability and practice whereas nudism is based on a personal belief system. That is why nudism offends some people; because it violates some people's religious beliefs or morals. I would argue that somebody who gets offended by someone who doesn't learn the language is oversensitive and possibly reacting out of some kind of baseless nationalistic pride in a language (unless the foreigner is really putting undue strain on the native by making unreasonable demands). I have explained in an earlier post why I believe that language skills should not be tied in with national pride in reference to a geographic area: because no single people can really claim pure historical ownership to land. To put it simply: a Miwok Native American should not be bound to respect the English language or even the neo-American people; the US government even sort of understands this which is why Indian reservations aren't always subject to the exact same laws.

And seriously, a bagboy is another bad example. It's pretty easy to anticipate that a guy whose sole purpose in work is to bag groceries might ask that question.

I can't relate to the barber example because I use an electric razor to cut my hair at home. But even if I went to a barber of hair stylist, don't most of them have hair magazines and books so that even natives can just point at the photos of what they want? As far as American service people go, give them a healthy tip and they tend to forget whatever extra effort they had to go through..

I agree with your (Kaze's) edited statement that it "can" be rude. Putting too many demands on people to in order to accomodate one's poor language skills is rude.

Yeah, if you're going to compare customs, that's a whole other kettle of fish. Japanese may be kind if you don't speak Japanese, but try to walk in their house with shoes on or go to a public onsen without bathing first.

Learning a language takes time. Learning immediate customs (especially those that can get you arrested or beat up) come much quicker. Just ask the guy that skinny dipped at the emperor's palace.

That said, say you came from the US and lived in Italy for 2 years. In that time, you never bothered to learn Italian past the pat phrases (even that badly). People may treat you kindly till they found out about the 2 year part. Then comes the thought "jeez, what's this guy's problem?".

To answer the original question: In January I will have lived in Japan for about 2,5 years. My experience is that Koreans and Chinese often can get good to very good over the course of 1 to 1.5 years, meaning hold a decent conversation, read texts, pass JLPT1 or at least 2. For the people from the West you can double that time. Also I think that people who speak English and survive here on that skill, as a teacher for example, maybe need more than 3 years because they don't feel the need to become fluent quickly, as some Chinese and Koreans who don't have that English (dis)advantage.

As for the topic of imposing a language. I am from Belgium and it is a really tricky question. Having 3 official languages and a (European) capital where almost every language is spoken, we often have conflicting views. There are areas where the official language is French, some where it is Dutch and some both. (German is a rather small proportion). But the law doesn't always reflect reality. Imposing Dutch in areas where 80% speaks French and the other way around. Yes, when linked to nationalism language can turn into a bitter thing. Speaking a particular language gets criminalised/stigmatized which is sad.
But in the case of a medium small language as Dutch about 20 million speakers worldwide compared to French (how many? at least 10 times as many) you could say
しかたがない, policymakers need to take a firm stance to safekeep the survival of the language.

I understand both views, the one that says you have to adopt to the majority, because I feel it is rude and ignorant to put your own needs before those of the whole community you live in). And on the other hand those who say you should just speak the language you are comfortable with, because not all people have equal opportunities to learn a second or third language and the more languages/cultures the more richness ... and the more confusion, conflicts.

Jasta Wrote:To answer the original question: In January I will have lived in Japan for about 2,5 years. My experience is that Koreans and Chinese often can get good to very good over the course of 1 to 1.5 years, meaning hold a decent conversation, read texts, pass JLPT1 or at least 2. For the people from the West you can double that time. Also I think that people who speak English and survive here on that skill, as a teacher for example, maybe need more than 3 years because they don't feel the need to become fluent quickly, as some Chinese and Koreans who don't have that English (dis)advantage.

Thanks for answering the original question.

I know a Korean woman who came to Japan with her Australian husband. He got a good job teaching English and had a lot of English speaking friends. She couldn't get work teaching her native language, so had to get a lower paying job at a clothing store. About a year later she was damn-near fluent. When I would watch her speaking Japanese with her Japanese friends I couldn't tell the difference.

It makes me wish I worked at a clothing store. I would trade having more money to learn Japanese faster, since it's the reason I came here. I guess I just have no discipline.

Discipline- I lack it too. English is the reason a lot of us are able to come here, but it is definitely a hindrance as we can do so much in English. At least I'm at a public school where there is Japanese going on around me all the time.

Is it really possible for someone to go from zero Japanese ability to JLPT 1 in a year? Isn't going from lvl3 to lvl2 in a year difficult enough that they're putting in another level?

I'm still doing too much in English. Like reading this site

Dragg Wrote:It's not at all fair to compare a value-bound lifestyle like nudism to a language skill. A language skill is based primarily on ability and practice whereas nudism is based on a personal belief system. That is why nudism offends some people; because it violates some people's religious beliefs or morals.

Well. I never said they were nudists. LOL. I'm merely pointing out how misconceptions arise due the fact they don't know the language. They can't ever know why the misconceptions occur, because, they don't know the language. If you're still unclear as to what I'm making a comparison toward, imagine a sign out of a shop that reads "no Nudangelians."

BTW language is based on belief as well. It takes a very strong belief to learn language the way we are right now. Each new language you learn becomes a part of you and your lifestyle. Without a belief in learning language you, much likely, wouldn't be on this forum. So this very much a fair comparison.

If what I'm saying is a little too vague, I can go into more detail.

Nukemarine Wrote:Learning a language takes time. Learning immediate customs (especially those that can get you arrested or beat up) come much quicker. Just ask the guy that skinny dipped at the emperor's palace.

Learning customs and changing behavior are two different things. It becomes increasingly difficult to modify a behavior as one grows older. One can read a sign that says "no spitting." If one has been spitting after everyother sentence his entire life, and is not a 47 year old bald man, there is little chance of actually adhering to that sign. More likely, if one can actually read the sign, one will just move to an area where one is allowed to spit. If one can't read the sign. A few onlooker, might find one to be rude.

For the info: Behavior modification takes just as much, if not more, effort than studying language. They are both committments that one has to adhere to on a daily basis.

This is fun.

@ Kaze

Actually, you used the word "nudist" at least three times in the post I was replying to. You only changed the word when you extended it into an analogy.

As far as belief, I was referring to beliefs that are based on a system of morals. For example, you can learn Japanese for the same kind of reasons you learn a skill like math: it could help you land a job or because your university requires a year of it, etc. You can love Japanese or math but it is not a requirement to become proficient. However, public nudity implicitly implies a love or at least comfortability with something that many consider taboo. Spitting, although taboo, is not near the same level of public nudity. Public nudity can get you arrested in most developed countries whereas spitting will get you arrested in a small handful like Singapore.

I agree with Nukemarine that if someone knew that they could be caned for spitting publically, they will usually be much more inclined to stop.

I'll probably just let it go at that since this topic has now turned from a discussion about who lives in Japan to a semantics discussion about the meanings of "belief" and "nudist", and is most likely of very little value to anyone at this point.

Dragg Wrote:@ Kaze

Actually, you used the word "nudist" at least three times in the post I was replying to. You only changed the word when you extended it into an analogy.

Hince the LOL after.

Quote:I'll probably just let it go at that since this topic has now turned from a discussion about who lives in Japan to a semantics discussion about the meanings of "belief" and "nudist", and is most likely of very little value to anyone at this point.

We were arguing beliefs from the moment the notion of respect was argued.

A belief is not limited to such things a nudism and aliens. Belief affect virtually every decision we make. I'd go on but I might going on forever.

Quote:I agree with Nukemarine that if someone knew that they could be caned for spitting publically, they will usually be much more inclined to stop.

Of course, they'd probaby stop, eventually. The chances are it would be a very long road, though. Especially if they couldn't read the signs.

I'm going to bring up a topic which burns extra hard for Swedish people, I'm sure many scandinavians can join in: social security.

Sweden is a socialist country meaning that the rich pay the poor, more or less. People who make a ton of money pay high taxes so disabled or unemployed people can recieve enough money to survive. This is a good thing.

Unfortunately, some people don't even bother to work, they just live off social security. This is NOT good. How do we find these people? Let's bring in the language problem:

If you don't know Swedish, you can't work in Sweden. If you can't work in Sweden, you can't contribute. So let's say like this: If you're a foreigner who have lived in Sweden for over 2 years yet can not speak Swedish, you should be BANNED from recieving social security. It's obvious you aren't trying hard enough, you aren't willing enough to live and work in Sweden.

Unfortunately, Swedish law doesn't allow us to treat foreigners differently from Swedes just because they are foreign. Personally, I'm fine with that in this situation: If a Swede doesn't know Swedish after living here for 2 years, cut his social security (excluding babies, obviously) as well. Problem solved for most part.

Maybe I should move to Sweden.

Wait, why do foreigners get social security in Sweden? Shouldn't those befefits be for for citizens and permanent residents only? If its like most countries then a foreigner with nothing to support himself with wouldn't be able to gain residence there, except maybe as a refugee.

For me, in USA I pay for Social Security, but if I were to lose my job I couldn't get any welfare, I'd get "Bye Bye, move your family out of the country in 2 weeks".

vosmiura Wrote:Wait, why do foreigners get social security in Sweden? Shouldn't those befefits be for for citizens and permanent residents only? If its like most countries then a foreigner with nothing to support himself with wouldn't be able to gain residence there, except maybe as a refugee.

For me, in USA I pay for Social Security, but if I were to lose my job I couldn't get any welfare, I'd get "Bye Bye, move your family out of the country in 2 weeks".

Unfortunately, it isn't that simple. It works like this: If you live in Sweden, you're allowed to "import" your whole family. That's right, ONE arab guy makes a living in Sweden and 20-30 family members join in, all of them working in one convienience store. There's also the people who marry into Sweden, they're allowed here. Refugees. People who studied here.

Getting a visa in Sweden isn't hard, it isn't even close to comparable to Japan and USA where people basically aren't allowed in unless there's a miracle. You need to prove that you have intentions to stay in Sweden permanently etc, but things change, the visas don't.

Tobberoth Wrote:I'm going to bring up a topic which burns extra hard for Swedish people, I'm sure many scandinavians can join in: social security.

Sweden is a socialist country meaning that the rich pay the poor, more or less. People who make a ton of money pay high taxes so disabled or unemployed people can recieve enough money to survive. This is a good thing.

Unfortunately, some people don't even bother to work, they just live off social security. This is NOT good. How do we find these people? Let's bring in the language problem:
[...]

Germany is pretty much the same.

Tobberoth Wrote:Unfortunately, some people don't even bother to work, they just live off social security. [...] If you don't know Swedish, you can't work in Sweden. If you can't work in Sweden, you can't contribute. So let's say like this: If you're a foreigner who have lived in Sweden for over 2 years yet can not speak Swedish, you should be BANNED from recieving social security. It's obvious you aren't trying hard enough, you aren't willing enough to live and work in Sweden.

Tobberoth Wrote:If you live in Sweden, you're allowed to "import" your whole family. That's right, ONE arab guy makes a living in Sweden and 20-30 family members join in, all of them working in one convienience store.

Sounds like those 30(?) lazy "imports" are too busy working to study Swedish...

Thora Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Unfortunately, some people don't even bother to work, they just live off social security. [...] If you don't know Swedish, you can't work in Sweden. If you can't work in Sweden, you can't contribute. So let's say like this: If you're a foreigner who have lived in Sweden for over 2 years yet can not speak Swedish, you should be BANNED from recieving social security. It's obvious you aren't trying hard enough, you aren't willing enough to live and work in Sweden.

Tobberoth Wrote:If you live in Sweden, you're allowed to "import" your whole family. That's right, ONE arab guy makes a living in Sweden and 20-30 family members join in, all of them working in one convienience store.

Sounds like those 30(?) lazy "imports" are too busy working to study Swedish...

Hardly. They are too busy watching TV. I mean, I don't mind that some of them are unemployed, they don't know Swedish and even if they did, they would have a hard time getting a job in Sweden since Swedes have a hard time getting a job here, most jobs demand a good education in that area... Foreigners usually become taxi drivers and such things. The problem is that if they don't work, why can't they spend that time to learn Swedish?? Education in Swedish is FREE if you have a visa, it wouldn't cost them a dime.

Tobberoth Wrote:If you don't know Swedish, you can't work in Sweden. [...]

ONE arab guy makes a living in Sweden and 20-30 family members join in, all of them working in one convienience store.

Get it?

Immigration, multiculturalism and public finance are important and complex issues, but a serious treatment is a bit beyond the ambit of this Japanese language forum, I think. Perhaps there's a more appropriate forum where your ideas could get receive the attention they deserve. I'm finding the tone and language of some your posts verging on offensive.

Cover your... eyes.

Mr. Tobberoth is just getting old is all. LOL.

Thora Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:If you don't know Swedish, you can't work in Sweden. [...]

ONE arab guy makes a living in Sweden and 20-30 family members join in, all of them working in one convienience store.

Get it?

Immigration, multiculturalism and public finance are important and complex issues, but a serious treatment is a bit beyond the ambit of this Japanese language forum, I think. Perhaps there's a more appropriate forum where your ideas could get receive the attention they deserve. I'm finding the tone and language of some your posts verging on offensive.

You are free to bring up any points you find offensive and I will be more clear on them. As for your boldings of my post, I hope you understand yourself that 30 people "working" in one convenience store isn't working at all, you need 2 people at most. It's a facade.

Ah...yeah. I think we're talking at cross purposes with that. Consider it dark humour.

Thanks for your offer to clarify, what I'm suggesting is that there's no need - that this may not be the best forum to continue that topic. Let's try to bring it back to something slighly related to Japan and Japanese.

I would just cover my...eyes, but I like seeing what folks are doing in Japan and exchanging views about language. That's why I'm here - I like it to be inspiring, informative, entertaining, innovative...

Thora Wrote:Ah...yeah. I think we're talking at cross purposes with that. Consider it dark humour.

Thanks for your offer to clarify, what I'm suggesting is that there's no need - that this may not be the best forum to continue that topic. Let's try to bring it back to something slighly related to Japan and Japanese.

I would just cover my...eyes, but I like seeing what folks are doing in Japan and exchanging views about language. That's why I'm here - I like it to be inspiring, informative, entertaining, innovative...

But if you keep them open... monsters will get you... or... even worse... George Bush! :O