@Dragg

The Hawaiians were not the original natives. They wiped out the population that was living here before them. I have friends here in Kauai who are of mostly Hawaiian blood (it's tough to find someone 100% Hawaiian) but passionately resent Kauai was ever part of the Hawaiian Kingdom. No one outside the section of the Big Island that King Kamehameha originally ruled over wanted to be a part of it. He was a brutal but shrewd conqueror. He was not loved by the majority he ruled over nor were the Kings and Queens who followed him. People who know the history do not celebrate King Kamehameha day.

Dragg Wrote:Again, this is a huge generalization. One could go live in a third world country to do charity work or be brought into the U.S. to be a prostitute.

Furthermore, what if I wanted to move to Japan to document and help preserve the Ainu language. I could in theory try to avoid learning Japanese out of principle.

I think doing those things would make your life better. Serving others always does.
I would give a pass to those prostitutes :/

Do people who know history celebrate Thanksgiving in the US? Maybe it's meant as a "thanks for the land" holiday.

Yep, I have read about what you are talking about. But it helps propel my point: Land ownership and control are all based on a bunch of BS. No single people really have a claim to land if you go back far enough in history. That's why you don't need to respect them or their language. Nor should you force a language on others. I think it's great that you could vote in various languages. You don't need to know English to be aware of the issues. For example, Spanish language television in California talks about US politics all the time.

I'm with the side that thinks people should learn the country's language that there staying in, if they can't be bothered to do that that it seems a little ignorant.

A great example that i have seen here in the UK is some foreigners going to collect there benefits because they don't work they can barely say a word of english and demand a job from the local job centre and complain when nobody can understand what they are saying and i've seen this many times first hand as i used to work in a training agency that trained people up for jobs we would literaly have foreign people calling into the centre to complain we would'nt give them a job and they could barely speak a word of english, what is everybody supposed to do learn every countrys language to accomodate them : /

Dragg Wrote:Do people who know history celebrate Thanksgiving in the US? Maybe it's meant as a "thanks for the land" holiday.

Yep, I have read about what you are talking about. But it helps propel my point: Land ownership and control are all based on a bunch of BS. No single people really have a claim to land if you go back far enough in history. That's why you don't need to respect them or their language. Nor should you force a language on others. I think it's great that you could vote in various languages. You don't need to know English to be aware of the issues. For example, Spanish language television in California talks about US politics all the time.

That's a nice view, but a very impractical one. The "right to a land" is irrelevant, it all comes down to society. Where Japanese society resides isn't important, the fact that you need to know Japanese to function in it is.

I don't want to force my language on anyone, I still think it's completely reasonable to expect foreigners living in a country to learn the language. The language is one of the most fundamental parts of the society, living in said society and just ignoring the language... is basically living as a parasite. It's completely respectless.

I wouldn't move to Finland and start speaking Swedish there just because "Sweden used to own this land". A society holds power over an area and they decide what language is spoken there. If you don't want to speak that language, you are free to move to a society where your language is spoken, or learn another language because learning one language doesn't erase another one. Respect for your fellow man and the society around you is what should make you learn the language, not a principle based on ancient history.

Totally agree Nestor.

The idea of the world becoming more globalized is still not common sense to many. I think that identity labels based on things like language will become archaic someday.

Dragg Wrote:Totally agree Nestor.

The idea of the world becoming more globalized is still not common sense to many. I think that identity labels based on things like language will become archaic someday.

Maybe you're right, just look at the spread of English. Which makes me sad because English as a language doesn't appeal to me much even though it's my second native language, I'd hate to see a world where English is the only spoken language, but it really isn't an impossibility.

Probably in the not so distant future there will be a global language. Not by means of warfare but for reasons of trade and exchange of ideas. Everyone keeps their local language and learns this global language in school to be a citizen of the planet.

As you guys, I'm really sad that most people don't give a damn about learning a second language.

I never got out of my country. I could go on living without ever learning a second language, but it is more than a question of survival.

I was questioned hundred times about learning english. ENGLISH! Every one who saw me studying japanese questioned me about japanese - it is useless, they say.

I'm someone that would be really sad if the world reach a stage that it would sucumb to one language.
The richness of an etnic group is tied to their language. Taking that away from spanish speakers in the US is probably against ideals whom with the US was founded (I'll give a chance to someone that is from there to discuss about it).

In the last century there was a facist dictator in brasil, called Getulio Vargas, that made speaking other languages besides portuguese a crime here. My german speaking grandparents were ASHAMED to teach it to their children. It is sad that I can understand only a little german, because I could've learned it from my parents!

@ tobberoth & bodhisamaya

You both seem to subscribe to the view that adding a language does not necessarily destroy the other primary languages. This is true in some countries like India that have large cultural minorities. However, as seen in Native American tribes, this is not always the case because their numbers were not great enough relative to the majority of European settlers and also because of intolerance/pressure to conform. Multiple languages can only exist in widespread usage for as long as they remain practical (give or take a few hundred years.) This is why I was a little surprised that bodhisamaya is not taking a more active stance in favor of Tibetan resistance of the Chinese language. I really do believe that trying to preserve a language within a small pocket of exiled Tibetans is an ultimately futile act in the long run because it is just not useful enough within India to make it practical.

Small pockets like Chinatowns in the US only exist for as long as there is a constant influx of Chinese immigrants. They are not large enough to be self-perpetuating.

I think your Tibetan example is way extreme. I'm talking about people who move to Japan to work there, you're talking about people in occupation. In one of the situations, you have responsibility, in the other you do not. Both topics are relevant to the discussion but not comparable.

As a semi-unrelated side note, I think that Japan will be able to preserve it's language and culture fairly well for as long as they are able to strongly limit immigration as they do. However it will also lead to economic ruin (even more so than now) because their birth rate is ridiculously low and they will have no good way to deal with the aging masses in the midst of a dwindling workforce. Tough choices are ahead for Japan.

Tobberoth Wrote:I think your Tibetan example is way extreme. I'm talking about people who move to Japan to work there, you're talking about people in occupation. In one of the situations, you have responsibility, in the other you do not. Both topics are relevant to the discussion but not comparable.

Yeah, I have trouble not being extreme sometimes. Sorry.

(Just as I'm having trouble resisting the urge to write an extreme amount of posts, thereby monopolizing the thread. I'll lay off for a little while.)

There is still hope that the Tibetan region will become autonomous at some time in the future. That is the stance the Dalai lama is taking instead of independance. They are fighting with patience rather than weapons knowing change in political environments over long periods of time always happens.

The reality of the situation is also practical. Without learning Chinese, they will be delegated to jobs that pay below living standards even for Chinese. China is also more than 1,000,000,000 people. Even if independant, knowing Chinese would be very useful.

Dragg Wrote:As a semi-unrelated side note, I think that Japan will be able to preserve it's language and culture fairly well for as long as they are able to strongly limit immigration as they do. However it will also lead to economic ruin (even more so than now) because their birth rate is ridiculously low and they will have no good way to deal with the aging masses in the midst of a dwindling workforce. Tough choices are ahead for Japan.

The birth rate issue is something that will hurt Japan economically but not reducing population is very dangerous in the big picture. There are too many people living on a small island chain. If something were to happen to prevent imports, the Japanese people would be in a world of hurt. There just aren't enough natural resources to support 127 million people.

Tobberoth Wrote:I would also learn Hindu if I expected to live in India.

Just for correction, Hindi is a language. Hindu is a religion.

It's sometimes not clear when you guys are talking about expats living in a host country for a few years, and when you're talking about immigrants who have permanently changed domicile and are or will become new citizens of their new country. Different issues involved.

Thora Wrote:It's sometimes not clear when you guys are talking about expats living in a host country for a few years, and when you're talking about immigrants who have permanently changed domicile and are or will become new citizens of their new country. Different issues involved.

Anything less than two years is an extended tourist.

Replicator Wrote:Just for correction, Hindi is a language. Hindu is a religion.

My religion is Japanese

The main problem with the people living here in Japan who don't learn Japanese is not that they don't speak Japanese, but that many of them (as far as I can tell) expect people, whether it be co-workers or whatever, to bend over backwards for them. These are the people who bitch and moan and want teachers to give them a full schedule in English at the beginning of every day so that they aren't confused. That's unreasonable.

Choosing not to learn any given language besides your own native language is not.

I guess to get back on topic, I live near Fukuoka

I also think that someone living in another country should do their best to learn the language, especially if that person plans on staying permanently.

Tobberoth Wrote:It might sound like racism, but personally I think it's common sense. Just like I demand people living in Sweden know Swedish, I learn Japanese if I'm to live there. I would also learn Hindu if I expected to live in India.

Racism!? How in the heck is that racism? Aren't we talking about language here; something that can be learned over the course of many years with minimal effort (efforts only needed if you plan to learn it faster)?

How does expecting a person to learn a language translate into racism? I've seen racism. This aint it.

If a person is an immigrant that person obviously saw some value in coming to the country. I wouldn't call not taking an effort to speak the language disrespectful, but it certainly is a bit rude. Especially when making demands.

The point at which businesses make an effort to accommodate another language is when that language is so saturated the owner would actually lose money for not doing so. At this point the language is no longer a foreign language but more an auxilary one.

Replicator Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:I would also learn Hindu if I expected to live in India.

Just for correction, Hindi is a language. Hindu is a religion.

That's really odd, I've even learned some Hindi and I was certain the language was called Hindu, the religion Hinduism. Turns out I was wrong :/

Not sure what English teachers' world looks like but from what I can see 'corporate' expats rarely bother to learn the language. They just don't have the time and are not motivated enough. It's perfectly feasible to see Japan as a mini version of their home country but with better Japanese restaurants. The most they are getting are one or two Japanese lessons a week where they can pick up some basics. There are exceptions, of course: one guy I know has worked really hard alongside his more-than-a-fulltime job and has reached a rather high level of fluency in just under three years.

Having said that, an amazing number of foreigners in corporate jobs have excellent command of the Japanese language but for the most part they are not your typical 'corporate package expats', posted in Japan for a year or two, but all seem have been here for a very long time or have some history of studying the language before they actually came here.

東京で五ヶ月ほどたちました。この五ヶ月間、ほんとに色々な経験することができました、けれでも来たばかりのころは言葉がよく分からなくて、失敗してばかりいました。
日本語の使い方について話したいんです。

For me, living in Japan the last few months, it is simply unskilful and unhelpful not to attempt to speak Japanese in the first instance unless the other person indicates they wish to speak English. The reason is that this maximises good relations and 'potential for action':

i. demonstrates effort and a level of commitment (result is greater responsiveness as this is usually perceived by Japanese as a form of がんばれ)
ii. slightly increases my understanding of more subtle cultural concepts (result is heightened awareness of cultural difference)
iii. forces me to be more humble and recognise how poor my Japanese is (result is increased desire to learn more)
iv. usually results in some good-natured banter (result is sense of shared good will)

My Australian friend living in Switzerland has a completely different approach over there: bark orders in English to French/German speaking inhabitants and if they don't understand it is their problem. In his area (law, off-shore tax administration) and as he is in demand that works fine. It would be an unskilful and unhelpful approach for me in Tokyo, and certainly frictive/clumsy, not to mention a wasted opportunity.

Barking orders could be construed as rude no matter what language you are speaking in. Of course there are rude foreigners who expect the locals to bend over backwards, but there are also some who smile, pick out whatever they want to buy at a store by themselves, nod a greeting to the cashier, and leave with no problem. In fact, the shopkeep should be happy because he just increased his sales. I don't see how failing to learn a language is INHERENTLY rude so long as you accept the sacrifices of not being able to communicate better.

The sad truth is that in many developed countries, the main tangible reasons, besides a job, to go out and associate with locals can be taken care of cheaper and easier online anyway. You can even buy many types of groceries online. Modern trends help create a greater sense of isolation, but they also create a level of independence where learning other languages becomes less necessary.