Okay, umm…I think I’m not sure what order I’m going to go in here, so, if it gets a bit confusing, sorry. I’ll try and keep it in order.

I think the Bible does have sufficient answers to these questions. And, although I don’t claim to have all the answers, I do believe saying that “God works in mysterious ways” is a shameful answer and cheap copout. In other words, let’s get this party started! Just kidding…but I’ll do my best to answer your questions. Oh, and for the record, I’m not trying to sound vicious or anything. I really am just honestly trying to discuss this matter and answer your questions as best as I can.

“There are many flaws in the going to heaven or hell thing based on belief. What belief is itself is difficult to define.” When I say “believe” I am referring to how the word was defined when the King James Version was originally translated. At that point in time, it meant something like “to put your trust in” or something along those lines. However, nowadays (since the meaning of words change over time), it pretty much just means “to accept as fact.” Just to be clear, I don’t mean that. I mean the first one—to put your trust in [something].

“I can not imagine a heaven where my mother or child would be burning in hell for all eternity simply because a belief was not accepted. Would I become numb to their suffering? Would I be filled with blissful ignorance?” They would not be burning in hell for all eternity simply because “a belief was not accepted.” It’s not a matter of whether this belief or that belief is the “correct” belief. The only reason that people would spend an eternity in hell is because they rejected their creator, God. It’s not even because they sinned. Everybody has sinned. Therefore, everybody goes to hell. That’s not even the question. The question is whether a person chooses to accept God’s free gift of salvation and repents of their sins. And let’s pretend for a moment with that situation that you mentioned with your mother or child burning in hell but where you made it to heaven. This means they rejected God and you didn’t. So…as much as you love your family, the Bible is clear that your creator/God comes first. Especially since you’ve at that point made it to heaven, it is logically clear that you put God above all else. I agree that it would be tragic if they never made that choice. But for you to make the same choice out of hatred would be kind of silly.

“It is illogical to me for an all-knowing God to not know before I was even born weather or not I would reject him/her. Why allow me to be born at all with this premonition? I would have been born for the sole purpose of dying and going to hell.
I have been told all babies go to heaven because they had not reached an age where they could make a choice. It would certainly be a compassionate act to support abortion as all those fetuses will go to heaven. It would be compassionate as well to kill all babies before they reach the age where they risk making the wrong choice and go to hell for all eternity. If the Christian view is correct and I by not believing in a creator God will spend all eternity in hell, I would of course have preferred to have been killed at birth.”
God is an eternal being and as such is outside of our time frame. I, as a being within this timeframe, will be honest with you in saying that I don’t understand this completely because I physically cannot. However, I think it may be a bit of a simplification to say that God “knew” this or that before hand. I’ve had it explained to me that God sees time/history as like a helicopter would see a parade, and we are on the sidelines. I’m not so sure I agree with that either. I don’t know, but I know that the most important thing is that God gave us free will. This means he gave us the choice to choose Him or not choose Him. If he didn’t give us this choice and forced us to love Him, then it wouldn’t be true love. It would just be a bunch of robots walking around. And as far as killing babies out of compassion for their eternal souls, well, that would really just be taking away that free will. Who are you to decide for them whether or not they will go to heaven. For all we know, that person may very well choose not to—it is their God-given right. Yeah, the whole “free-will/time” debate has been around forever, so I won’t tell you that what I just said is like THE ANSWER. Because, like I don’t even know. But that’s just my guess from reading the Bible.

“A person's religion is mostly based on where they are born. If you happen to be born in America, congratulations! There is about a 90% chance you will be a Christian and go to heaven. If you are so unlucky as to be born in the Middle East or Asia, too bad for you. There is about a 90% chance you will not be a Christian and will spend all eternity in hell. About 98% of those amazingly kind Japanese will burn in hell as well. It's a lottery at birth. So it seems.” Well, I’d like to say that nowhere near 90% of Americans are true Christians. America is the biggest producer/exporter of pornography in the world. 90% of Americans may claim to be Christians, but you would be very hard pressed to find that many people in America who profess (not just talk the talk, but walk the walk) the God of the Bible (Jesus) as the most important thing in their life. 90% just simply are not true Christians in the biblical sense of the word. This is related to the question that people often raise about “people in Africa that have never heard of Jesus or the Gospel.” This is related also to the question raised where you said “At what point in history did the requirement to believe in Jesus to avoid hell begin? Immediately after his death when no one in the world was aware of it.? 200 years later? Did everyone born before Jesus go to hell? Moses? Abraham?” I’d have to say that people who have never formally heard of Jesus or the Bible are in the same position as the people who lived before Jesus in the Old Testament. Since Jesus, Christians have recognized that we are saved by faith in Jesus and what he did. Then there is the Old testament which has an emphasis on the Law. Despite this, I don’t think the Old testament people before Jesus were saved by the Law. They were saved by faith just like us. Now, Christians have faith in Jesus, but, then, people had faith that God would provide a savior, even though they didn’t know who Jesus was. Even Abel offered his offering “in faith.” Abraham, Job, and many other Old Testament saints had faith that God would provide a savior. And what about people “in Africa, etc.”? Well, I think there must be some way for these people to serve God without knowing who Jesus is, just like in the old testament. Romans 1:20 says, “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.” These people may not know specifically of Jesus or the Bible, but I think God judges them just like babies and people who are mentally-disabled. He judges them based on what they can and/or do know. I think it’s very possible that these people realize that there is a creator and serve that creator. Anyway, that’s just my theory.

And I'm sorry for maybe ignoring other posts. Lol, I'm responding as fast as I can...

And I'm sorry for continuing this off-topic conversation. I warned people that I did not want to get into a debate, but they picked a fight anyways. Oh well, I'm not offended, and I think this is kind of fun anyways...

bodhisamaya Wrote:

playadom Wrote:The Jesus lovers or the Jesus haters?

Does anyone here hate Jesus? He was a great teacher. In many ways his teachings mirror the Buddhas from 500 years earlier. Hmmm...Where were those missing years anyways

People claim he was a great teacher, but is that really what people are thinking? He didn't just teach about being a good person. A majority of his teaching is about him being the exclusive, only way to God.

cjswanson1355 Wrote:Christianity is popular because of the fear of going to hell.

That's it.

That's all Christianity is.

Where do people get this kinda stuff? Real Christianity isn't some "easy way out" free ticket to heaven kinda thing. Christianity is about a 'relationship' with the Living God.

I'm a Christian and fear of hell is NOT my primary motivation. It is the LOVE that He demonstrated... The freaken creator of the universe took the punishment we deserved upon himself. I mean, what the heck!? Isn't that a God that you'd want to know?

SammyB Wrote:

cjswanson1355 Wrote:Christianity is popular because of the fear of going to hell.

That's it.

That's all Christianity is.

Where do people get this kinda stuff? Real Christianity isn't some "easy way out" free ticket to heaven kinda thing. Christianity is about a 'relationship' with the Living God.

I'm a Christian and fear of hell is NOT my primary motivation. It is the LOVE that He demonstrated... The freaken creator of the universe took the punishment we deserved upon himself. I mean, what the heck!? Isn't that a God that you'd want to know?

Hey! It's not my fault that our fictitious ancestors got conned by a talking muppet into eating an apple...

And to answer your question, no I don't want to know this Guy:

2 Kings 2:23-25 (New International Version)

"From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria."

Moral of the story: Little kids should die a horrible death for making fun of bald people. Why would you worship something that tortures little kids for name-calling, even if it is a prophet who is being teased? So much for forgiveness.

So why are we studying Nihongo again?

For me, it started my freshman year of high school when my family tried to get an exchange student from Egypt and ended up with one from Tokyo. Then my father got transferred to a base in Japan, and I spent the last two years of high school there. After a couple years with JET I had to keep learning Japanese, if only out of frustration at not mastering it yet . . . and besides, it's one of the most beautiful and amazing and interesting languages ever.

On the other topic . . . seems like a lot of people on both sides of the argument are painting with such broad strokes that we're getting a sort of cartoon version of Christianity and a cartoon version of the various alternatives. It would be nice if we could keep it both courteous and succinct.

To our would be missionaries, I would suggest giving yourself a couple years with JET or another English teaching program first. I think your overall experience will be more positive if you go to Japan with an open heart and mind, ready to learn and to grow as much or more than you teach or change others. . . . JET has a Christian fellowship group that might be a good resource for specific questions; it's easy enough to Google.

activeaero Wrote:

igordesu Wrote:Yeah, I apologize for this really long post. Like I said, I don't expect you to believe anything actually written in the Bible. I'm not trying to get you to believe it. What you believe is your business, and, if you want to debate this, I'd gladly do so over email or something. However, please don't spread blatant lies about the Bible (and other people's beliefs in general) without at least respecting the readers of this thread enough by backing up what you say by citing sources and specific examples. I realize that this is out of place here, but I simply couldn't let such lies be spread. It's not fair to the people who read this.

You apparently didn't read my post that well. I never said there weren't any instances were the Bible claims God as being absolute. Of course there are. I stated that there were places that say otherwise. My point was that evidence is now showing that the Bible's origins were not based on pure monotheism and instead were likely an editing of sorts of the other religions of the times. I didn't mean that the current Bible was edited in modern times to correct this.....I'm meaning as the Bible was developed the ideas were altered along to make it a more "passable" religion not as easily associated with it's pagan origins.

And for reference from the King James Bible.
"Numbers 33:4 - For the Egyptians buried all their firstborn, which the LORD had smitten among them: upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments." Nearly every currently know translation states this the exact same way. A clear distinction is made that the other God's were punished separate from the human punishments. You can not judge (or punish as it is stated in some translations) Gods that do not exist. I'm sure you can twist this to make it mean whatever you want but please do not state that I am "spreading lies" about the Bible.

As some sort of counter evidence you then post later Bible passages which is exactly my original point was....that as the Bible progressed such talks of other pagan God's was tamed down and the religion became much more monotheistic in nature.

Of course the biggest proof of all is the 10 commandments. The first commandment is to have no other God's before the God of the Bible. If no other God's existed then why does this commandment exist. Oh and yes I already know the counter argument for this. The common response is "Well it doesn't really mean other God's, when it says "Gods" it is just referring to anything that you place above the Bible God".

Well guess what? The Ten Commandments destroys this argument for me with the very next commandment: "You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath"

The Ten Commandments go out of there way to make a SPECIFIC note that there is a difference between worshiping idols and worshiping other God's. If the first commandment was just simply talking about "false idols" when it speaks of God's then there would be no reason for the second command to exist.

It is quite clear that the God of the Bible is aware of other real God's. And yes I'm aware this is completely contradicted in other parts of the Bible which is precisely the point. The Bible can't even keep it's own story straight.

In terms of the Gospels contradictions it's quite hilarious to me that you are actually defending the Gospels inaccuracies as being some sort of good thing. Maybe you forgot the part about the Bible being the divine work of God himself that is supposed to be perfect in nature? It's absurd that one would have to make up excuses as to why a book created by a "perfect being" would have glaring inaccuracies scattered throughout some of it's most important books.

And yes there ARE direct contradictions within the Gospels. We are talking cold hard fact numerical and place name contradictions, not ones that can be argued over via semantics. Family generations, locations of events, etc are contradicted throughout the Gospels. They authors can't even agree on where Jesus ascended into heaven from nor where he gave the famous sermon on the mount......those are pretty important events to be getting confused on lol.

And in finally in regards to the New Testament fulfilling old Testament prophecies.....no crap lol. It's pretty easy to say a prophecy was fulfilled when you are writing it AFTER YOU ALREADY KNOW WHAT THE PROPHECY SAYS lol.

So in summary please don't state that I am "spreading lies" about the Bible.....the Bible does good enough with that on it's own.

First, in reference to your talking about the Christianity as being changed from pagan ideas, are you talking about the Catholic church? Because I know that many of their practices are based on previous pagan religious practices. Yeah, other than that I'm not sure what your talking about, so could you post some specifics? I'm very interested in your "evidence."

As far as your continuing thing about the existence of other gods beside God, THAT is quite hilarious. The whole problem isn't even a problem if you understand the basics of the bible. It's so logical. The bible says that God created everything and all that jazz, right? If you go from that strictly biblical point of view, then you're left with a quite simple explanation. Satan and his demons (fallen angels) in the Bible are said to be out to prevent mankind from coming to know God. One plausible explanation is that, especially since Satan is the father of lies, he doesn't want mankind to know about the existence of the true God or of himself or the demons either. One theory then is that gods of other false religions are really just demons trying to mislead people. And Jesus punished demons openly, right? (the whole pigs over the cliff incident) Therefore, isn't it possible that God punishes these demons/false gods? Therefore, yes, the bible can keep it's own "story straight."

"And in finally in regards to the New Testament fulfilling old Testament prophecies.....no crap lol. It's pretty easy to say a prophecy was fulfilled when you are writing it AFTER YOU ALREADY KNOW WHAT THE PROPHECY SAYS lol." So you're saying references within the Bible/New Testament to things about Jesus that fulfill old testament prophecies are not good enough? There are many things about Jesus that are fulfillments of old testament prophecies, and you're saying that the gospels, etc. were just fabricated to "fulfill" these prophecies (and therefore Jesus isn't an actual historical figure). So you want outside references to things about Jesus? Well, guess what? There were skeptics just like you in Jesus' day. They were called the Jews. Yeah, that's right, and there were a lot of them. If they didn't like what was being written about fulfillments of prophecies like...oh, let's say...the RESURRECTION. Couldn't they have just gone and said, hey, Jesus didn't rise from the dead. He's still here in the tomb. In fact, it's surprising that we find they didn't do any such thing. Or is it? And what if this stuff was one huge fabrication. Then why were the disciples (aka supposed fabricators) almost all martyred for this lie? Nobody is that stupid. They wouldn't have died for some stupid lie that they created. And there ARE outside references to Jesus. Like Josephus. He referenced the existence of Jesus not too long after Jesus in a way that indicates most people would understand who this Jesus person was.

"In terms of the Gospels contradictions it's quite hilarious to me that you are actually defending the Gospels inaccuracies as being some sort of good thing. Maybe you forgot the part about the Bible being the divine work of God himself that is supposed to be perfect in nature? It's absurd that one would have to make up excuses as to why a book created by a "perfect being" would have glaring inaccuracies scattered throughout some of it's most important books." Look at it this way. If there was a trial and three people were called to the stand to witness in defense of something, it would be suspicious if their stories matched perfectly in every way down to every last detail. We're talking about 3 different people from 3 different perspectives here. It's the same way with the gospels, which, although being the inerrant Word of God, are still eyewitness accounts. Of course, I'm not so sure I understand what specific glaring, cold hard fact inaccuracies you're talking about. After I deal with the following, perhaps we could deal with the rest on a case-by-case basis? After all, I honestly believe this stuff, so I really am concerned over whether what I'm believing is a crock or not.

The sermon on the mount. Yeah, that's in reference to Matthew chapter 5 (And I think a few chapters after that). Do you mean by location that they don't know where he gave it? In Matthew it just says "up on a mountain." I guess the other gospels have references to *maybe* this sermon, but that's about it. The other gospels like Mark have a few parables and teachings from Jesus that are similar to what he said in the Sermon on the Mount, but that doesn't prove anything. We're talking about the same teacher. He probably gave the same teachings several times in different places. Luke has a similar thing in chapter 6 with the beatitudes in a different location, but...these are different eyewitness accounts. Different people may have seen this in different places. And, BTW, Luke wasn't a disciple.

And finally we are brought to the Ascension. How fitting that it's the last one we deal with, lol... Matthew does not talk about the ascension at all. We assume that Jesus ascends after the last words in the book, but the gospel does not say so. And the other gospels basically agree that it's just outside of Jerusalem, so I'm not sure what your referring to.

So, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you.

SammyB Wrote:

cjswanson1355 Wrote:Christianity is popular because of the fear of going to hell.

That's it.

That's all Christianity is.

Where do people get this kinda stuff? Real Christianity isn't some "easy way out" free ticket to heaven kinda thing. Christianity is about a 'relationship' with the Living God.

I'm a Christian and fear of hell is NOT my primary motivation. It is the LOVE that He demonstrated... The freaken creator of the universe took the punishment we deserved upon himself. I mean, what the heck!? Isn't that a God that you'd want to know?

I couldn't agree more.

"As far as your continuing thing about the existence of other gods beside God, THAT is quite hilarious."

But the thing is: Exodus says that God is a jealous God. In fact, Exodus even states that His name is Jealousy in most translations. Why would God be jealous of Satan who is clearly inferior? Usually jealousy is used when referring to peers or higher-ups, in which case other Gods would be the most likely culprits.

I don't think it's hilarious at all; its actually a valid theory that the religion was borne out of pagan roots.

This is gonna be my last post here even though I enjoy this sort of thing. Fabrice is probably gonna hate the way this thread is turning out. haha.

Dragg Wrote:

SammyB Wrote:

cjswanson1355 Wrote:Christianity is popular because of the fear of going to hell.

That's it.

That's all Christianity is.

Where do people get this kinda stuff? Real Christianity isn't some "easy way out" free ticket to heaven kinda thing. Christianity is about a 'relationship' with the Living God.

I'm a Christian and fear of hell is NOT my primary motivation. It is the LOVE that He demonstrated... The freaken creator of the universe took the punishment we deserved upon himself. I mean, what the heck!? Isn't that a God that you'd want to know?

Hey! It's not my fault that our fictitious ancestors got conned by a talking muppet into eating an apple...

And to answer your question, no I don't want to know this Guy:

2 Kings 2:23-25 (New International Version)

"From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria."

Moral of the story: Little kids should die a horrible death for making fun of bald people. Why would you worship something that tortures little kids for name-calling, even if it is a prophet who is being teased? So much for forgiveness.

You took this waaaaaay out of context. It doesn't say that the youths were little kids. In the overall context of the situation in Israel at that time, the story is different. The hebrew is neurim qetannim, more like "young men." These words describe army men in a different part of Kings. Also, in the historical context, these men were probably prophets of the false god Baal challenging Elisha and the miracles he had just performed in the name of the true God.

Dragg Wrote:"As far as your continuing thing about the existence of other gods beside God, THAT is quite hilarious."

But the thing is: Exodus says that God is a jealous God. In fact, Exodus even states that His name is Jealousy in most translations. Why would God be jealous of Satan who is clearly inferior? Usually jealousy is used when referring to peers or higher-ups, in which case other Gods would be the most likely culprits.

I don't think it's hilarious at all; its actually a valid theory that the religion was borne out of pagan roots.

This is gonna be my last post here even though I enjoy this sort of thing. Fabrice is probably gonna hate the way this thread is turning out. haha.

Jealous? How is that a valid theory? Of course God is flipping jealous! Duh! Like, He created everybody, everything, and he even gave us the freedom to choose. Of course he wants to choose Him! His people, whom he rescued/brought out of Egypt in quite a long ordeal suddenly decide to bow down to a stupid, golden calf. And later on it's Baal and a bunch of other false gods. Of course He's jealous. He's jealous for our own good. He's jealous because he loves and cares for us. He's so jealous, He died for his creation that rejected him, even when he knew they would reject him! Holy crap! Give the guy a break. This jealousy is quite different from envy, which is wrong.

@igordesu

It sounds to me like you might be making up context that doesn't necessarily exist. You say that they are probably false prophets without quoting any sources.

According to most google searches, "neurim qetannim" seems to refer to any age between 12 and 30. So basically I admit we don't know their ages for sure. However, it is crazy-extreme to torture and kill somebody even for the (hypothetical unless you can show evidence) reasons which you list.

Seriously, its a cop-out just to say something like, "Oh, He probably had a good reason for His violence." It sounds like a battered wife trying to find rationalizations in order to defend her abuser.

EDIT: As fas as the word jealousy goes, I have never heard of it being used in the sense that you mean. If it really was meant the way you claim, I think other word choices would have been more appropriate.

As far as when you say things like "stupid golden calf", this is one of the reasons why a lot of people are very wary of missionary types trying to evangelize everybody. Many Hindus believe that cows are sacred and have statues of sacred animal-like deities. Do you think that their statues are stupid too?

Sorry, this was hopefully the real last post by me.

Dragg Wrote:@igordesu

It sounds to me like you might be making up context that doesn't necessarily exist. You say that they are probably false prophets without quoting any sources.

According to most google searches, "neurim qetannim" seems to refer to any age between 12 and 30. So basically I admit we don't know their ages for sure. However, it is crazy-extreme to torture and kill somebody even for the (hypothetical unless you can show evidence) reasons which you list.

Seriously, its a cop-out just to say, "Oh, He probably had a good reason for His violence." It sounds like a battered wife trying to find rationalizations in order to defend her abuser.

EDIT: As fas as the word jealousy goes, I have never heard of it being used in the sense that you mean. If it really was meant the way you claim, I think other word choices would have been more appropriate.

Sorry, this was hopefully the real last post by me.

On the jealousy thing, let's make a distinction between jealousy and envy. Envy (which is sin), is wanting something which is not yours (in this case, the worship of people who are worshiping other gods). Jealousy is being fervent about something which is in fact yours. The fact is, every time God is described as jealous is in reference to Israelites. Well, that *is* technically His. They vowed to worship Him and have Him as their only God. So...yes, he is right in being Jealous their because it does belong to Him.

The only thing I will concede with the Elisha thing is, okay, it is possible that those guys were 12 years old or something. But we've established that that is highly unlikely. So let's create the historical background. Elisha's going from Jericho (where he had done miracles) to Bethel. You can read that in those verses. Bethel was a city of wickedness, as explained by Hosea who called this city Beth Aven "house of wickedness" (4:15). And these young men, they said "Go up" twice to Elisha. That's go up as in "ascend" like Elisha's predecessor, Elijah, who earlier on in 1 Kings 18 had a little (actually huge) tussle with a bunch of prophets of baal (he later ascended to heaven in a chariot). They were challenging Elisha's authority by doubting what God had done or could do. We can't verify %100 that these were false prophets or anything. But, it seems unlikely that 42 grown men just happened upon Elisha in this situation and threw a few random jabs (which fit the historical context).

Iqordesu. Do you really under-estimate your own capacity for compassion to the point that if your own mother were burning in hell for all eternity, it would still be a heavenly experience for you?

Another issue is the Son of God dying on the cross for the sins of everyone. This is an idea borrowed from Buddhism and probably many other religions. It is called Tonglen in Sanskrit. "May I alone take on all the suffering of every sentient being in the universe and may they only experience bliss". Also, "For the sake of even one suffering being, may I endure the chopping of my body into a thousand pieces". These are prayers that have been repeated by every sincere Buddhist practitioner since far before the birth of Jesus. Every time a Bodhisattva dies, he has the motivation to be re-born in human form instead of a heavenly re-birth to endure once again all the tortures of human existence in order to ease other beings suffering. "For as long as space endures and living beings remain, may I too abide to dispel their misery".

The idea that a God incarnate with all the knowledge in the universe of anatomy and physiology and the reasoning behind pain would have any discomfort on a cross seems silly. There are multitudes of Yogis in India who can endure any kind of mutilation to their bodies you can heap upon them and not even drop their mala beads. They have overcome their aversion to pain and even laugh at it. A God incarnate would certainly see through the illusion of pain. It would be like, "Well guys, that was fun. Lets do that whole cross thing again next week. I'll bring the nails."

Igordesu do you not see the flaw in having to try to come up with your own theories in order to explain away parts of the Bible that just don't make sense? It appears that you conveniently like to restrict the Bible to the errors of man whenever you see fit. Let's make it clear one more time that the Bible is the INFALLIBLE AND PERFECT word of God.....according to itself. Perfect doesn't mean "close to perfect most of the time". It means perfect. It means every story of the son of the Lord and everything else in the Bible should match up perfectly. Period.

Your explanations are just filled with holes. You state that "maybe" God was just talking about other demons since he mentions demons in other parts of the Bible. Ok.....then why in the heck didn't he call them demons then? There is obviously a distinction between the two as it specifically makes it else where in the Bible so there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for God to switch the terms. If he meant demons he would have said demons, period.

Your response regarding the story of Jesus and the consequences suffered. Are you serious in thinking that people won't suffer for something that isn't real? All that is needed to counter this claim is to point to all of the other religions that you "know" are false where people do just as crazy and insane acts, if not more so, than anything in the Bible.


But here is the real deal breaker:

God knows everything before, after and outside of time. He's all powerful, all everything, etc.

If that is true then our lives are just a sickening game where our fates are already known by a creator that just wants to watch us act them out for his amusement. This would be the absolute definition of having a worthless existence. Free will or not makes it completely irrelevant because the free will is still nothing more than a CREATION.....simply one of the factors in the "game".

Even more telling is when you realize God sacrificed NOTHING by sending Jesus. Really sit down and think about it for a second. Who in the world made up the situation that sad mankind needed to have the son of god come sacrifice himself to save us?

Yep you guessed it......GOD. God told us that we needed him to sacrifice his son because he just made it up! After he created his plan and made it happen he then said that we should worship him for his "sacrifice" even though he is the sadistic bastard that made up the whole thing in the first place!

Jesus wasn't a sacrifice of love. He was a sacrifice of pure sadistic intent and such an act is the embodiment of pure evil. God forced a "sacrifice", that he created, upon his own creation and then mandated that we must acknowledge it or that he would condemn us to suffering for all of eternity. Even if the Christian God WAS real I wouldn't worship or praise him. What would be the point? Oh no I might go to hell and suffer forever? And? Hell is just a creation like anything else so what relevance does pain or suffering have? What point does praising God forever in heaven have? Answer: Nothing. Eternal happiness or eternal suffering are irrelevant if we are all merely creations. Both are equally pointless and only exist as selfish motivations. If God's religion was truly about spreading good will and morality then heaven and hell would never be mentioned. The fact that God himself brings it up is all the argument one needs to prove it IS a factor.....regardless of how much you want to pretend it isn't.

The entire argument is just absurd. Christians claim that they aren't trying to convert people due to the heaven and hell consequence yet the entire conversation process is built around having to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior because it is the only way into heaven.

It's already well known that you can be a wonderful person without believing in God or Jesus therefore the ONLY benefit Christianity provides is simply some self centered insurance policy to possibly prevent burning alive forever.

[ファブリス]

EDIT: Topic reopened.

Coolio. It may be a bit b4 I can form my reply. See you soon.

Might I suggest the religious debate move to a separate thread?

Let's get on topic.

I study Japanese because I want to live in Japan some day. Also because it's interesting and intellectually satisfying

I study because..... I live there... and I find that knowing enough Japanese to get in trouble (and then enough to get back out ) is always handy.

That's the short answer, anyway.... The long answer is that I fell head over heals in love with the culture when I was in elementary school.... in 3rd grade we had an exchange student of sorts that worked in our school district and she came into elementary classrooms to teach us about Japan. So we learned some basic phrases and how to fold some origami, etc. But I was hooked.

I started actually studying the language when I started university (no J-classes at my high school and the internet resources that we have today weren't around then ). I started as a computer engineering major my freshman year, so Japanese was my one non-math/chem/programming related class... and it kept me sane Later I'd study abroad which took the etch-a-sketch picture of my life and turned it upside down and gave it a good shake I came home and changed majors, career paths, etc. And haven't looked back since. I've been playing the ALT game for a year and a half and am currently at trying to decide between staying in Japan and finding a real job or going home and getting a Japan-related real job when my contract is up in 2010.


And if I may step on the unsolicited advice soapbox for a moment... my advice to igordesu.... and anyone looking to come to Japan, in any role... would be to sit down and really evaluate your goals for wanting to come. The people I know who have done missionary work in Japan say it can be a hard place to work, simply because of the "lack of interest" (for lack of a better phrase) among the population. Christianity and Japan have a complex relationship.... given that it was banned for probably close to 200 years.... and following revivals have been thwarted by other things. So I would ask myself if my primary goal is the mission work, or if my primary goal is to see/experience Japan (and the mission work is the vehicle you use to get there). Because there's a slight difference, and if it's the latter, another means of getting here (teaching/study abroad/internships/etc) might be a better fit (at least at first). I don't want to argue the validity of Christianity or the pros and cons of missionary work... But living in this country can be an amazing experience if you're here in the right vehicle that works for you. Given the tricky situation, if your goal is more to experience Japan, you might have a better overall experience in a different role. Or maybe you'll really like the challenge Who knows? But best of luck to you in your studies.

I study simply because I want to be an AV star.

There we go. Now we have a separate thread (Continuation of tangent discussion/civil debate about religion thread) for continuing the religious debate. Bodhisamaya and others can find the discussion over there. To the rest of you: carry on. Your stories are about how you got started on Japanese are awesome.

for japanes media- music/drama/talk show/variety show/pop culture/culture/anime/etc. (not manga though, i can't read that s*** in english or in japanese or in korean)

I want to be a salary man.















...not joking.

because i'm moving to the Tokyo/Chiba area after I finish my bachelor's degree, my fiance is Japanese, and I have interest in Japanese pop culture, cars, motorcycles etc.

seanosaurus - dare to dream man.