igordesu Wrote:haha. yeah, well, like I said, this an awkward topic to be discussing in this place, and I don't want to get in any debates. Therefore, I won't tell you what to believe. But, if you believe the Bible (as I do), then, due to the Bible's claims about the existence of one, exclusive God, it follows that all other gods are really just false gods. Like I said, that's just what the Bible says, and I'm not here to tell you to believe it or not. But, that's the kind of thinking that follows if you believe the Bible. It's a book with many claims to exclusivity. Anyway, whatever you do with that is your business...
Actually the Bible does not claim existence of only one God though there has been a careful attempt to craft that aspect out of it since it's inception in order to hide it's Pagan origins. However even with this "editing" the Bible still clearly reveals in several areas that even the God of the Bible acknowledges the "real" existence of other gods.
Also, on that note, just a short digression; my personal thinking is, like, logically, not everybody can be right, right? I don't wanna point any fingers, but it seems logically impossible that EVERYBODY is correct. Like, people who believe the bible %100 (as in, earth is only 4000-8000 years old-ish, %100) and people who are complete athiests and people who believe in Wicca or something can't all be right. Right? I don't know. That's just my thinking. Whatev. Sorry for the lengthy post.
If you doubt this go ahead and read through Numbers. Within Numbers it is specifically noted that the God of the Bible cast judgment and punishments on numerous other Gods. You can not punish other God's if they don't exist.
Of course then there is the problem with the Gospels. The most important books of the Bible in regards to actual Christianity do not even tell the same story and in fact DIRECTLY contradict themselves on numerous occasions regarding facts and events of Jesus' life. Even worse is that a couple of Gospel writers actually completely left out Jesus' virgin birth even when actually speaking of his birth. This is a simply an unimaginable omission. These authors primary purpose was to show the true divine nature of Christ. The idea that a few of them would leave out one of the most important proofs of divinity pretty much seals the deal on the Bible.
And in case you're wondering I'm baptized and saved and was a highly intense Christian for approximately 23 years. However, when I finally went looking for the true glory of God and actually REALLY looked at the Bible to become closer to the Lord and Savior I came face to face with the fact that not only does the Bible fail horribly as a majestic work....it is now in my personal opinion the embodiment of some of the most evil acts imaginable. The Christian God is a truly disgusting and sadistic individual on almost all levels if you actually take the time to read the Bible without blinders on. The day I rejected Jesus Christ and Christianity was literally the best day of my entire life. It was like my mind was finally open to truly experience life as an equal part of this universe and not as some puppet in a sadistic God's experiment.
Sorry for the rant but the last thing I want is such a religion ever trying to press itself upon Japan.
I didn't want to get into a debate, but...I didn't want you to give other people the wrong idea about my beliefs with the inaccuracy of what you said. So, here you go:
"Actually the Bible does not claim existence of only one God though there has been a careful attempt to craft that aspect out of it since it's inception in order to hide it's Pagan origins." Could you be more specific about these attempts to "edit" the bible? It would be cool if you could cite some sources because I've done a lot of research and I've never come across anything like that. The only people who have ever edited or changed the bible are the Catholic Church (I am not affiliated with them) and other "religious groups" and cults like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. By the way, I'm not sure what bible you've been reading for the past 23 years. Did you skip over John 14:1? John 14:6: "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."" That sounds pretty exclusive to me. Also, the bible says God created the world and everything in it. Then it follows logically that He is the only God. And besides, you don't need to believe me. The Bible says it all. Isaiah 44:6 says, "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God." and verse 8: "...Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock;I know not one.'" So, no, the bible does not claim there is a God besides God described in it.
And what's this business with the book of numbers? Are you referring to when God brought judgment upon inhabitants of the land of Canaan by using the Israelites, who would soon inhabit the land? God was not bringing judgment upon the gods that the Canaanites were worshiping. He was bringing judgment on the people for worshiping those false gods/idols instead of the real God. If that's what you're referring to, Numbers 33:51-52 say: "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: 'When you have crossed the Jordan into the land of Canaan, then you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, destroy all their *engraved stones*, destroy all their *molded images*, and demolish all their high places."
"Of course then there is the problem with the Gospels. The most important books of the Bible in regards to actual Christianity do not even tell the same story and in fact DIRECTLY contradict themselves on numerous occasions regarding facts and events of Jesus' life. Even worse is that a couple of Gospel writers actually completely left out Jesus' virgin birth even when actually speaking of his birth. This is a simply an unimaginable omission. These authors primary purpose was to show the true divine nature of Christ. The idea that a few of them would leave out one of the most important proofs of divinity pretty much seals the deal on the Bible."
I love how you make all of these crazy claims without backing them up. That's just pure nonsense. I've read them several times, and there are no blatant contradictions. There are a few minor differences, but it is actually a good thing that they are there. They do not present any major problems, and they are simply evidence of the fact that, when we read the gospels, we are reading the same stories from 4 different historical perspectives. If these minor differences weren't there and the gospels were perfectly in sync with each other, people would suspect that they were the result of a conspiracy or fabrication. Ummm, and I honestly have no idea with what you're talking about with Jesus' birth from the virgin, Mary. Two of the gospels (Mark and John) do not talk about Jesus' virgin birth. But guess what? They don't talk about his birth at all! They are an account of Jesus' life and ministry, not his birth. And other two (Matthew and Luke) do have verses in the beginning referring to his virgin birth. Go check them out. And it is simply not true that these authors' primary purpose was to show the true divine nature of Christ. First of all, you and I have never spoken with the authors, so we can never know their true, exact purpose. The only thing we can do is read what they've written and figure it out. And if you study the gospels, you'll find that their purpose was probably something more like giving a written account of Jesus' life and ministry. In fact, Mark really emphasizes the humanity of Jesus, which is just as important. And anyways, his virgin birth is only one of the proofs of his divinity. If you read the gospels, there are many other fulfillments of old testament prophecies that show his divinity.
Yeah, I apologize for this really long post. Like I said, I don't expect you to believe anything actually written in the Bible. I'm not trying to get you to believe it. What you believe is your business, and, if you want to debate this, I'd gladly do so over email or something. However, please don't spread blatant lies about the Bible (and other people's beliefs in general) without at least respecting the readers of this thread enough by backing up what you say by citing sources and specific examples. I realize that this is out of place here, but I simply couldn't let such lies be spread. It's not fair to the people who read this.
Edited: 2008-12-27, 3:17 pm