Thank you everyone for helping me!

@ tibul - That site is extremely helpful and answered a lot of my questions thanks!

I think I am repeating myself a lot with the same sorts of questions I am sorry if this frustrates some people
I think I have overstretched myself by trying to learn and understand all the components of Japanese (kanji, kana, pronunciation) at once I think for the moment I will focus on kanji because I am actually really enjoying it!

One thing though I am still confused about is how I will learn the word vocabulary "いう" = "to say" but I don't know how this is formed and why the combination of these two kana equal "to say" or how its pronounced, are the separate kana spoken on their own?
or do you fuse them together to form some sort of new separate word pronunciation. Does this make sense?

いう is what some of the books call the dictionary form of the verb "to say." When you conjugate the verb, い stays the same and う changes. So, when you use kanji, the kanji replaces the part that doesn't change, the root.

言う　＝　いう

For example :
言います (いいます) say
言いました (いいました) said
言わない (いわない) don't say

The う of いう is changing to い or わ and the other bits are common verb endings. When you read kana, you can usually just say the name of the kana. In いう, い and う get blended together a little bit (or a lot by some people), but kana aren't as complicated as English spelling.

Most words (like the other three examples) sound like they are spelled. But . . . it might be better to wait until you have a feel for the sounds and words from recordings before you start trying to learn new words without hearing them first.

Artem, I highly recommend that you get a basic textbook in Japanese or read around the web (there are a ton of resources), and then come back with more questions to clarify what you read.

I think you might learn faster that way (ie get the really, really basic questions - the kinds you are asking now answered in a systematic way) - not trying to discourage you from asking, but you will pick up more of the basics faster that way...

KristinHolly Wrote:いう is what some of the books call the dictionary form of the verb "to say." When you conjugate the verb, い stays the same and う changes. So, when you use kanji, the kanji replaces the part that doesn't change, the root.

Just wanted to point out that this is a very general rule and there are insane amounts of exceptions. A common example, 食べます. べ never changes, but it still isn't part of the kanji. Another example is 架かる.

Tobberoth's right. But, the old form of 食べる was 食ぶ, so it did change once upon a time. ます used to be a separate word, but it gets attached so often now that it's like part of the other verbs. I looked it up. I need to go away from the forums and do some flashcards or read a book or something . . .

KristinHolly Wrote:Tobberoth's right. But, the old form of 食べる was 食ぶ, so it did change once upon a time. ます used to be a separate word, but it gets attached so often now that it's like part of the other verbs. I looked it up. I need to go away from the forums and do some flashcards or read a book or something . . .

増す「ます」 is still a word...a [relatively] common one at that.　

Hahaha! I think the three of you may have scared away Artem by now...

playadom Wrote:

KristinHolly Wrote:Tobberoth's right. But, the old form of 食べる was 食ぶ, so it did change once upon a time. ます used to be a separate word, but it gets attached so often now that it's like part of the other verbs. I looked it up. I need to go away from the forums and do some flashcards or read a book or something . . .

増す「ます」 is still a word...a [relatively] common one at that.　

Very true, but the question is whether or not the masu in 食べます is the same masu as in 増す. Personally, I have no idea.

Tobberoth Wrote:

playadom Wrote:

KristinHolly Wrote:Tobberoth's right. But, the old form of 食べる was 食ぶ, so it did change once upon a time. ます used to be a separate word, but it gets attached so often now that it's like part of the other verbs. I looked it up. I need to go away from the forums and do some flashcards or read a book or something . . .

増す「ます」 is still a word...a [relatively] common one at that.　

Very true, but the question is whether or not the masu in 食べます is the same masu as in 増す. Personally, I have no idea.

I think the 増す　ます is more of a ふやす type ます than a ます type ます.

Wow, that was confusing.

Reminds me of the first time I saw: 励ます - I was like, how the heck do you conjugate this thing? Is it in dictionary form or what? doh!

It's a different ます. As far as I can tell, this one is an auxiliary verb that hasn't had its own kanji in a very long time. My modern dictionary has a long confusing explanation of its origins -- sounds like there are some different possibilities but one is an old verb ます which was written 申す but was different than the 申す (もうす) today. Edit: So, it looks like there still is a verb 申す (ます), but it's not the same as the ます in 食べます at least not now.

kfmfe04 Wrote:Reminds me of the first time I saw: 励ます - I was like, how the heck do you conjugate this thing? Is it in dictionary form or what? doh!

彼を励ましましたら、マスを増す

KristinHolly Wrote:It's a different ます. As far as I can tell, this one is an auxiliary verb that hasn't had its own kanji in a very long time. My modern dictionary has a long confusing explanation of its origins -- sounds like there are some different possibilities but one is an old verb ます which was written 申す but was different than the 申す (もうす) today.

Yeah, edict has a separate entry for this ます[marked as an auxiliary verb]. Interesting theory about the 申す. Given the politeness of 申します, it makes sense...

@ kfmfe04 yes I think its best I do heh!

What books do you recommend for this? Books are expensive here in New Zealand so I need to put in a big order from amazon and will take a couple of weeks to arrive. Any good books you recommend for theory and helping with the basic questions?

I like most materials from Japan Times:

http://www.amazon.com/Genki-Integrated-C...276&sr=8-6

I haven't use the Genki books (only used the intermediate/advanced books), but I hear good things about them. Other people who have used beginning textbooks more recently may have some suggestions.

IMHO, the books to AVOID are the "Japanese for Busy People" series.

But what you should do is search around on amazon for some books you think you might want to buy (there are reviews to give you an idea) and then, if you like post something to confirm that you didn't pick any lemons.

Of course there are the ones that say that instead of wasting big money on expensive and kinda useless textbooks, you could donate half to RevTK and use the other half to buy some manga.

mentat_kgs Wrote:Of course there are the ones that say that instead of wasting big money on expensive and kinda useless textbooks, you could donate half to RevTK and use the other half to buy some manga.

Are you promoting *cough* underhanded methods *cough* ?

mental_kgs: True, but given the flavor/level of Artem's posts on this thread, is that what you would suggest that he do?

Artem, of course if you are into manga, you should try mental_kgs's suggestion.

There are just so many ways to approach learning Japanese. The best thing to do is, keep reading the forum for ideas and try to discover what works best for you. But don't get too caught up in "picking a method" - you don't want to get into "paralysis by analysis". The important thing is to try a method, stick with it for a while, and then switch if you don't think it's working for you. Also keep in mind that many methods are not mutually exclusive so you can blend ideas to your content.

Most importantly, find a method that keeps YOUR motivation up, and try to do a little Japanese every day!

Good luck.

I went and bought some japanese manga a couple of days ago, I have always enjoyed them! I found some books on amazon and would like your opinion if thats alright?
Most reviews for these books were favorable, but its just too expensive to get all of them unfortunately, what out of there are the ones you recommend most?

Jimi's Book of Japanese: A Motivating Method to Learn Japanese (Hiragana/Katakana)Link

Japanese in Mangaland: Basic Japanese Course Using Manga - Is the workbook necessary with this? Link

Japanese the Manga Way: An Illustrated Guide to Grammar and Structure Link

Mangajin's Basic Japanese Through Comics (v. 1) - Same here, is part 2 a huge help or is part 1 enough?Link

i like the Japanese in Mangaland books ok... (workbook isn't necessary) i have all of them but there is plenty of free stuff on the internet you know... mainly this website and http://www.iknow.co.jp are my #1 ways of study... http://www.guidetojapanese.com is a good grammar site..

Is Japanese the Manga way and Mangajin made by the same people? Different authors though? Might pick up one or the other don't know which.

@ Hash yea there are a lot of good websites but I prefer something physical to read, it doesn't distract me as much as reading online

kfmfe04 Wrote:mental_kgs: True, but given the flavor/level of Artem's posts on this thread, is that what you would suggest that he do?

He remembers me of myself when I had just started RTK. I was totaly clueless.
The advice about checking other threads in this forum seems the most important one.

In my opinion, the nicest thing you can do while doing RTK is to watch raw anime/doramas. Listen to japanese radio. Get used to the gibberish and start recognizing a few words.

Artem Wrote:<snip>
Most reviews for these books were favorable, but its just too expensive to get all of them unfortunately, what out of there are the ones you recommend most?

Jimi's Book of Japanese: A Motivating Method to Learn Japanese (Hiragana/Katakana)Link
<snip>

"Jimi's" is kawaiiiiiii (cuuuute!) and has lots of little cultural tidbits. It's a fun way to learn the kana. However, if you're on a budget, HumanJapanese.com has a very nice free web-based course on basic Japanese which includes hiragana (and katakana). I highly recommend it (you'll get help remembering the shapes, and audio help for pronunciation too). I'm one of those who prefers books, but you should check this resource out--it's really well done.

I have the Mangajin I book and Japanese in Mangaland as well... of the two, the latter is more comprehensive. They're fun, but I wouldn't say they'd replace a textbook.

Thanks for all your help everyone! There are of course a few things that I don't understand still, but for the moment I will focus on RTK and learning the kanji before trying to understand the meanings of the words and formations of sentences.
Just to be clear though, I shouldn't be dead set on trying to translate things into romaji to understand them as I learn the basics of kana and kanji? This is the only thing I am still unsure about - how are the romaji formed when placing for instance two kanji or two kana beside each other. I guess this comes a bit further down the track and I feel I am repeating my questions! I can't thank you all enough though I value all your opinions!