snallygaster Wrote:This is just the universal "kids today..." rant. Actually, I suspect the average university student has better kanji skills than the average 40-something. As far as keigo goes, AFAIK, it's always been assumed that kids don't know how to use it, and as long as you've learned it by the time you're looking for a job, it's all good.
And I would say an average Japanese adult would not merely pass the JLPT1, but would get very close to 100%. A junior high school kid might find it a bit tricky.

Actually most people who have said this to me have been 28-35.

Tobberoth Wrote:

phauna Wrote:Isn't JLPT multiple choice as well? It seems like a waste of time to take such a test, except to get a piece of paper.

Believe it or not, JLPT is actually a very accurate representation of someones proficiency in Japanese. Sure, some people (very few) pass JLPT1 without being able to speak proper Japanese. The vast majority however get a proper indication.

If I passed JLPT2 and failed JLPT1 but you passed JLPT1, you're better than me at Japanese, there really is no question about it. JLPT tests are extremely broad yet tests the right things. I seriously doubt someone who everyone considers to be a JLPT2 level would fail it. It's not like other tests where you have to study FOR the test to pass it. If you're good at Japanese, you're good at it. And if you're good at it, you can pass the level fitting for your proficiency, whether you studied for it or not.

I can't say I agree with this. Production is much harder than recognition. Even if you can understand the JLPT1 material and pass but if you can't produce Japanese worth a damn then your Japanese is bad IMO. I mean I guess it is all what you want to use it for.

Say take someone who lived in Japan for a few years after they were born then moved to another country. They can use the Japanese they know perfectly, but don't have a big vocab or grammar knowledge. Maybe they can't pass the JLPT1, but in almost all situations their Japanese will own someone who can but can't produce native sounding mistake free Japanese. Pronunciation is also a killer for many learners. I would love to see what percentage of people who passed JLPT1 can be understood by Japanese not used to listening to foreigners Japanese.

thermal Wrote:I can't say I agree with this. Production is much harder than recognition. Even if you can understand the JLPT1 material and pass but if you can't produce Japanese worth a damn then your Japanese is bad IMO. I mean I guess it is all what you want to use it for.

Say take someone who lived in Japan for a few years after they were born then moved to another country. They can use the Japanese they know perfectly, but don't have a big vocab or grammar knowledge. Maybe they can't pass the JLPT1, but in almost all situations their Japanese will own someone who can but can't produce native sounding mistake free Japanese. Pronunciation is also a killer for many learners. I would love to see what percentage of people who passed JLPT1 can be understood by Japanese not used to listening to foreigners Japanese.

If you check the statistics of how few people pass JLPT1 every year (bear in mind, most of the people who do are korean and chinese) you'll probably get a pretty good indication: Only the absolute best at Japanese ever pass JLPT1. (Of course, lots of people are good enough to pass it but never take it, that's another case entirely.)

My point being, my guess is that over 90% of the people who pass JLPT1 can produce Japanese very well. Which people are overall the worst at producing Japanese? People who never produce Japanese. Which people almost never produce Japanese? People who self-study Japanese. How many people who self-study Japanese actually pass JLPT1 without having lived in Japan? Extremely few.

I mean in theory, you could say that since JLPT doesn't demand production, there could be tons of people who pass it without being able to produce. I'm just saying, that's extremely unlikely. If you're good enough to get to the JLPT1 level of recognition, you should be good enough to produce unless you actively did you best to NEVER train production.

Bringing up my own experience as usual, with the people I lived and studied with in Japan, it was pretty obvious which would pass JLPT2 and which wouldn't. The ones like me who actively spoke Japanese all the time because of girlfriends etc, who produced the best, were the same people who passed the test. Others who had studied longer than us and learned more vocabulary lists, still couldn't pass it. JLPT actually takes understanding, not pure factual memorization.

alantin Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:I say the average Japanese adult is far less literate than we all assume.

Can anyone offer any "definite" facts to prove me wrong?

Did you know that the world's most sold newspapers happen to be Japanese?

There are also a lot of pet birds in Japan .

nesty Wrote:Japanese kids are too busy cutting each other up with exacto knives and putting each other into boxes while they use their evolved hands-with-6-thumbs to type out text messages to one another in obscure mutated versions of kanji/kana. The old people, who make up 99% of the population, are all hooked up to robots so they can do all the infrastructural work and communicate with cybertelepathy so none of this matters. That's my take. The JLPT is just an intelligence test, if you take it, you're interested in Japanese, which earns you respect, but you're not Japanese, so you're forever an outsider and will be prevented from visiting the fish markets or using the trains on Halloween.

thatoneguy Wrote:Truer words have never been spoken.

We're basically all done here now.

Well, he forgot to mention the vast amounts of Hentai.

mrtobberoth Wrote:Depends on what western system you're talking about. Japanese education is relatively bad, but not compared to American education for example (then again, there is still difference between colleges, just talking on average here).

You're giving me assumptions. Numbers. Common.

Quote:Believe it or not, JLPT is actually a very accurate representation of someones proficiency in Japanese. Sure, some people (very few) pass JLPT1 without being able to speak proper Japanese. The vast majority however get a proper indication.

And you know this how? If one random Korean can pass it without much knowledge, many others can as well.

Quote:It's not like other tests where you have to study FOR the test to pass it. If you're good at Japanese, you're good at it. And if you're good at it, you can pass the level fitting for your proficiency, whether you studied for it or not.

So that's why so many people are out there studying specifically for the JLPT and not just studying Japanese.... Enlightening 8)

phauna Wrote:TOEIC is only hard because it tests bizarre and useless information, small word nuances instead of overall understanding, and because sometimes it gives two valid and natural answers but only allows one to be correct.

Interesting...

Quote:Are Americans (or any English speaking people) losing their ability to spell?

Can't lose what you never had... lol... kinda

Quote:I wonder if there are any statistics on that.

Exactly what I'm asking... kinda...

mrtobberoth Wrote:If you check the statistics of how few people pass JLPT1 every year (bear in mind, most of the people who do are korean and chinese) you'll probably get a pretty good indication: Only the absolute best at Japanese ever pass JLPT1. (Of course, lots of people are good enough to pass it but never take it, that's another case entirely.)

Okay, so... only the best at Japanese pass JLPT1, but it's easy enough for a Japanese high school student to pass. So then those with university education must be like Japanese language dieties.

Quote:My point being, [b]my guess[b] is that over 90% of the people who pass JLPT1 can produce Japanese very well. Which people are overall the worst at producing Japanese? People who never produce Japanese. Which people almost never produce Japanese? People who self-study Japanese. How many people who self-study Japanese actually pass JLPT1 without having lived in Japan? Extremely few.

My guess is that there a conspiracy to make the JLPT seem harder than it actually is. The more it's made to look like an insane hurdle and requirement for employment the less foreigners will seek to learn the language, the less chance we'll see them secretly building a massive army with sites set on ruling the EU. Prove me wrong

Quote:Okay, so... only the best at Japanese pass JLPT1, but it's easy enough for a Japanese high school student to pass. So then those with university education must be like Japanese language dieties.

No, they're deities. Japanese is hard. Just look at the JLPT2 practice reading texts. Even there you have a bunch of really rare words that they need to explain in the footnotes. Look at a novel. There are just so many uncommon words...

Transparent_Aluminium Wrote:

Quote:Okay, so... only the best at Japanese pass JLPT1, but it's easy enough for a Japanese high school student to pass. So then those with university education must be like Japanese language dieties.

No, they're deities. Japanese is hard. Just look at the JLPT2 practice reading texts. Even there you have a bunch of really rare words that they need to explain in the footnotes. Look at a novel. There are just so many uncommon words...

So, because a test has rare words, the language itself is hard?

No it's because the language has rare words, lots of them.

Every language must be really hard then.

Freaking languages, all with hundreds of thousands of words, and only some thousands in regular use!

I'm pretty sure spellcheckers serve to improve spelling for English writers. When they make a mistake, it's highlighted and next time there's a chance they won't make the same mistake again. Plus wordprocessing in English involves spelling everything out. Probably there are a lot more highly literate people using wordprocessors now than before wordprocessors were available.

Japanese word entry on the other hand is multiple choice and there is no kanji production required. Only recognition is necessary to select the correct kanji from a list.

On spelling vs kanji... once you have a basic grasp of English spelling you can make a good attempt to read and write anything no matter how uncommonly used it may be. One may make some typical mistakes but still get by. With uncommon kanji usage it is harder to guesstimate. What's more an English speaking adult can probably write almost every word they know correctly or close enough including words that they have never read, but I'd guess Japanese would have a much harder time, especially when they just use wapuro every day.

Also my 2c on vocab, it seems to me that basic Japanese requires learning more specific vocab than English because Japanese tends to use specific words where English just uses combinations of simple words. For example "must arrive" 必着 （ひっちゃく）to name just one.

This is anecdotal evidence, but then again, there aren't really any hard facts or figures in this thread so I thought I'd chime in...

People who I've met in Japan who have passed JLPT 1 have never, in my eyes, seemed to possess extraordinary production abilities. While I'm frequently complemented as having great pronunciation and/or speaking abilities when I'm in other large groups of non-native speakers, I'm by no means fluent and could not, without a lot of studying, pass JLPT1. I'm not one for tooting my own horn-- but I do possess some experience. Studying for JLPT1 is not going to help you write keitai mail, flirt with girls, or speak to your co-workers at work because the gap between what is written and spoken in Japanese, especially in say, the countryside, is wider than you'd imagine. The 敬語 I studied in college isn't anything like the 敬語 that I hear everyday at work, nor do words and phrases like 経済成長率 gain you any ground in non-finance related professions.

A (non-native) co-worker here laughed at me when I told her I was studying RtK because her goal is to transfer to a CIR position at the end of this year. Someone told her she needed to pass the JLPT2 as a requirement for the position and she really took it to heart. She said, "Why bother learning 2000 kanji when all you need is 800?" Her goal, meeting an arbitrary requirement, doesn't necessarily prepare her at all for the job she seeks. In the same vein, it's a fallacy to say that passing the JLPT1 is equal to obtaining fluency in Japanese. However, it is a solid foundation of recognition, literacy, and grammar.

Passing the JLPT1 is great. But in the end, it's still just a test. Like any test, it's often far removed from practical application.

Edit: As far as the topic is concerned, I have a feeling that this sentiment is the equivalent to old men telling kids to get off their lawn. Of course kids these days can't speak as eloquently as kids back in the day. Of course their kanji is worse. All this new-fangled video game, television, manga rotting their minds. Rabble rabble rabble.

Tobberoth,

I agree that many people who pass the JLPT1 have great production abilities, but I was taking issue to you saying that it is a very accurate representation of Japanese proficiency. There is a correlation, but it only tests half and the easier half for that matter of Japanese proficiency.

In regards to those that pass, I am talking out of my ass here, but I am guessing many aren't very proficient at producing Japanese at all. I am studying at a Japanese school at the moment with a lot of Asians. They are on the whole studying to get good at Japanese and get work involving trade with Japan. The can secure a better future if they can pass the JLPT1 so most of them don't have a focus of get good at Japanese, but rather get a good job. In these circumstances they do a lot of study and not a lot of speaking.

Also note that many more people take the JLPT overseas than in Japan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jlpt

QuackingShoe Wrote:Freaking languages, all with hundreds of thousands of words, and only some thousands in regular use!

No... in my [extremely limited] linguistic study, I have come across examples of languages with vastly common vocabulary sizes. As contrasting examples, I remember reading about an indigenous African language, where knowing 800 words would get you to know about half the words in a general conversation, with another[don't remember the details], for which you'd need more than 一万 to get the same percentage of understanding.

Both languages have pretty much the same lexicon size, one just happens to use a lot more rare words.

vosimura Wrote:Also my 2c on vocab, it seems to me that basic Japanese requires learning more specific vocab than English because Japanese tends to use specific words where English just uses combinations of simple words. For example "must arrive" 必着 （ひっちゃく）to name just one.

I'd say this is true to an extent, but once you learn 入学「にゅうがく」, words like 入院「にゅういん」 become a little easier.

Hi, I just want to remember you that JLPT1 is a small goal if you want real proficience in the language. JPLT1 might look far now, but probably after you have gotten it, you'll still have much to learn.

Some of us, have personal goals such as:
- Read the newspapers casualy.
- Read scientific material with complete comprehension.
- Write scientific material.
- Teach in the language (not english, nor japanese).

mentat_kgs Wrote:Hi, I just want to remember you that JLPT1 is a small goal if you want real proficience in the language. JPLT1 might look far now, but probably after you have gotten it, you'll still have much to learn.

Some of us, have personal goals such as:
- Read the newspapers casualy.
- Read scientific material with complete comprehension.
- Write scientific material.
- Teach in the language (not english, nor japanese).

If you pass JLPT1 with a good score, you should be able to read newspapers pretty casually. Scientific material shouldn't be a problem either. At least, that's what JLPT1 is supposed to represent, since I haven't passed it myself I can't say for sure.

spoonsman Wrote:Notice how he worded it he didn't say that an adult can read an average of 3,500, he said that an average adult can read up to 3,500.

I don't believe the average of 3,500.
However I can believe that your regular Joe (Sato?) can recognize (defined as knowing at least a single reading OR the general meaning) as much as 3,500.

That's what I meant XD

It's on Wikipedia. Average Japanese adult can read about 3,500 different characters, 5,000 for Chinese.

Edit: Hot damn, is 3,500 really hard to believe? 2,100 jouyou (by the new list) 1,000 Jinmeiyou (and they could know more than that). And then all those other kanji outside the jouyou + the ones you find in restaurants, historical temples and all other sorts of places.

FutureBlues Wrote:Studying for JLPT1 is not going to help you write keitai mail, flirt with girls, or speak to your co-workers at work...

Of course it will! I already do all three, without studying for the JLPT1.
I don't see how studying for the JLPT1 is going to make me any WORSE at doing all three!!!

Well, my flirting with girls may get worse, in my attempt to be "more clever with word-play" but that's another story...

FutureBlues Wrote:While I'm frequently complemented as having great pronunciation and/or speaking abilities when I'm in other large groups of non-native speakers...

That's just a non-native speaker's way of saying, "you sound like you're more fluent than I am." So this would depend on the kinds of non-natives you hang out with. Some may be impressed because you can flip a few phrases in the local dialect. Do you use this to judge your own degree of fluency?

What I don't understand is, why do people think studying for the JLPT1 is mutually exclusive with being able to produce Japanese? Are they getting this crazy association by looking at the overseas Asians who can read and write better than they speak? What does this have to do with how I learn or what I can get out of studying for the test, whether I take it or not?

FutureBlues Wrote:Passing the JLPT1 is great. But in the end, it's still just a test. Like any test, it's often far removed from practical application.

Like you mentioned, it depends on where you live and what you do. You are right that it's just a test. But it is good for two things:
1. I will know more after studying for the test than not studying at all.
2. It will give me good feedback to tell me if I am learning proper Japanese.

To me, passing JLPT1 would be the equivalent of finishing maybe Junior High in the quest for fluency - it gets me about half-way there or slightly more, but there is still a lot to go...

This is all so interesting. I looked up the Wikipedia article. What English Wikipedia says under "Chinese character" is "Today, a well-educated Japanese person may know upwards of 3,500 kanji," which is not the same as saying everyone in Japan is running around reading and writing that many characters.

In the Japanese Wikipedia under "日本漢字能力検定" (the kanji knowledge exam), level 1.5 tests about 3000 characters, 常用 plus 人名. The description sounds like a level that would be hard but not impossible for an average college-educated Japanese person: 1級同様、一般的には用いない漢字が多いため . . . 、一般的な感覚での大学・一般程度よりは難しい。しかし、1級よりは使用頻度の高い漢字が多いので、一回の受検で合格することは十分可能である。

[As with level 1, there are many characters that are not ordinarily used, so it's usually considered to be more difficult than college or general public level. However, there are more frequently used kanji than in level 1, so it is quite possible to pass in one try.]

But then it is Wikipedia, so you have to take it with a bit of salt in either language.

I meant that I'm complimented by Japanese people. Real compliments as opposed to, well, polite comments which everyone has gotten their fair share of.

超-interesting article about the usage of 僕 and 私: Nihongo day by day

nac_est Wrote:超-interesting article about the usage of 僕 and 私: Nihongo day by day

I found the quote from the minister in the 50s trying to regulate pronoun usage particularly bizarre...

nac_est Wrote:そして「お前」は駄目!!!とても厳しい(汚い)呼び方で、不快感を与えると
思います。ただし、地域や家族の中では使う人もいますが、
私は「お前」と呼ばれたら、とても嫌です(~д~)

My girlfriend says the same thing :-\
I'm used to saying 君

Too lazy to check, but one thing I'd like to just put out there:

申し訳ございません is not correct, it's 申し訳ありません。

The former sounds more polite, but it's grammatically incorrect.
So I hear from a 店員。

That sounds wrong to me; I'm pretty sure ござる fills the same roles as ある (among others) in this context.

~J

kumadondon Wrote:Too lazy to check, but one thing I'd like to just put out there:

申し訳ございません is not correct, it's 申し訳ありません。

The former sounds more polite, but it's grammatically incorrect.
So I hear from a 店員。

How is it grammatically correct? gozaimasu and arimasu are the same words, just that gozaimasu is more polite. 申し訳ございません is perfectly fine, but you are more likely to hear 申し訳ないんです than either of those two.

申し訳ございません 　is fine; I hear it regularly. And google shows 6 million hits on it, so it's pretty common.