Hi everyone. I've finished RTK a few months ago and started mining sentences from various sources: dictionaries of japanese grammar (beginning and intermediate), all about particles, iKnow from vocabulary, city hunters mangas (basically picking up words i don't know and checking available sentences in iKnow or Kodansha hiragana dictionary, if the manga sentences are too complicated to be picked up directly). I'm now at around 700 sentences, adding as many as I can in a day but allowing anki to show only 20 new cards per day.

I also have a book that I find quite interesting, Breaking into japanese litterature. A few weeks ago (a month at most), I was barely able to understand anything, even when looking at the provided word lists or translations. I already had 4 months of exposure to "textbook" japanese prior to starting the sentence method.

I recently started to read that book again, and now I can really follow and understand most of what is going on in the japanese text. I admit I have to look at the vocabulary quite a lot, but my brain seems to have adapted itself to understanding larger sentences, something which was totally impossible a few weeks before.

So basically, this method has produced better results than the "classical" way of learning languages in a quarter of the time. I'm sure many others have had similar experiences but I just felt like sharing what was going on for me.

Keep it up, it's worth it.

Thanks for the confidence boost! I recently finished RTK1, and am searching around for useful sentences and grammatical points. I've already found some helpful things, such as using iKnow. I'm working on several SRS decks using various sentences and am exploring what kinds of sentences and study methods work best for me post RTK1... I'm also trying a bit more to avoid English stuff. Since I'm still figuring some things out, progress hasn't been so fast yet.... But there has been some noticeable progress, and every bit of new knowledge encourages me more. Seems like there's so many possibilities after RTK1 that it was a bit daunting at first, but now it's getting rather interesting! It's nice to hear from someone who's in a similar position that has achieved so much in such a short time.

I have to say I think this "quick" progress is really due to the way the "Breaking into japanese lit" book is organized (the layout). It takes a few seconds to go to the vocab list (at the bottom of the page), going again on the japanese text at the top of the page, occasionnally checking the translation (which is very different from the japanese text but allows easier interpretation of the original). I'm not yet able to read websites or mangas (I understand around 30% in these, if they have furigana, and the "casual" grammar I find there seems less organized or stable than in japanese litterature).

I think I have integrated a lot of patterns, and checking the vocabulary very fast allows me to fill in the gaps in comprehension, while still having an idea of the structure in short term memory. When I go back and reread the sentence, usually everything becomes clear.

Awesome. Once you finish Breaking into Japanese Literature, there are a plethora of other books with similar format by Kodansha. Using these books I was able to follow an abridged version of Snow Country, and In a Grove. Of course I frequented the definitions, but it was still a unique experience. I can now fully understand Soseki's 1st dream and most of the 3rd without looking to the translations. Have you tried shadowing any of the stories with the audio on the site? That's tough stuff.

I don't really shadow them (in the classical sense) because I don't find it fun enough, but I read many sentences aloud (although I'm often interupted because of the readings). I've been listenning to the mp3 version of the "first night" quite a lot also.

just to be sure, "shadowing" means repeating what you hear at the time it is spoken, right?

While studying using this sentence method, did you go kanji>kana or kana>kanji ? Also are you able to re-produce those sentences on paper with kanji/kana from memory if you were to hear that sentence?? I am actually almost done the rtk..142 to go and i have been trying kanji>kana.. but what i noticed was, i am able to read the kanji if i see it, even on websites...but suppose if i hear that same sentence..i have difficulty putting it down on paper...I remmember before i even started rtk..I often saw this kanji 私 and i'd be able to recognize and pronounce it because it's everywhere ! but when i wanted to write it down from memory.. i couldnt...
Oh and by the way.. the shadowing method is explained on this site. http://www.foreignlanguageexpertise.com/...study.html

NinkuEx Wrote:While studying using this sentence method, did you go kanji>kana or kana>kanji ? Also are you able to re-produce those sentences on paper with kanji/kana from memory if you were to hear that sentence?? I am actually almost done the rtk..142 to go and i have been trying kanji>kana.. but what i noticed was i am to read the kanji if i see it, even on websites...but suppose if i hear that same sentence..i have difficulty putting it down on paper...I remmember before i even started rtk..I often saw this kanji 私 and i'd be able to recognize and pronounce it because it's everywhere ! but when i wanted to write it down from memory.. i couldnt...
Oh and by the way.. the shadowing method is explained on this site. http://www.foreignlanguageexpertise.com/...study.html

I can relate to your problem but I wouldn't worry. Words get imprinted HARD in your memory as you're exposed to them. You should be able to write 私 since it's in RtK, your problem is probably that you don't remember which of the RtK kanji is used to write わたし but as you read a lot of books etc, you'll see enough of the kanji in your mind to remember which one it is and then you'll be able to write it.

kanji to kana. doing it the other way would be too time consuming. I write a small proportion of the sentences I review in my deck (it varies from day to day). My goal is not handwrited production, it's absorbing language, recognizing characters, their sounds and their meanings.
I read the sentence in kanji, try to guess the meaning, check the pronounciation and optionally write it. If I make the smallest reading mistake, I fail the card. If I hesitate too much when writing the word in kanji, I fail the card if the word is important to me. If I make a kanji mistake, I fail the card again.

I don't know if I would be able to write a sentence just by hearing it, at least with a pen and paper, but often I can write the whole sentence after having read it, without needing to check it again. This doesn't happen with fresh cards, so this effect is due to repetition. This isn't easy from some words like keizai where the meaning of the compound cannot be predicted on the base of the heisig keywords alone.
Knowing the readings of characters sometimes help more than the meaning (such as 件　(けん)　in 事件;　"じょ" and "せい" in "女性"、"せい"　in "政治"、"政府"). If the kanji are rarely used and the keywords are not related to the compound, things get very tough. Sounds+meanings usually allow me to solve ambiguity and know what to write. I imagine this gets even easier as your are more advanced in japanese and know many more readings.

I guess with this method, I'll only be able to write on paper the most frequent items from memory. If I had a strong urge to write everything by hand and memory, I would really go the other way (kana to kanji).

Just to give some motivation, I can say that when you have enough experience with kanji and their pronounciations, you don't even need to have seen them. I watched my boss my hero and heard them talking about きまつしけん. I took out a pen and wrote it out: 期末試験. And that's without EVER having seen or heard 期末 before. I just realized it had to be that from the context and the readings.

Safe to say, enough exposure will give you the tools to work with the kanji, just let it take some time.

Hmmm, can't wait to get to that point .

My blog is all about progress reports. I have them recorded since I started RTK. Part is in this forum, the rest is in the blog.

http://onhowtolearn.blogspot.com/

ohhh, okay..so its all about exposure in the end..i'll continue with kanji>kana and see how it goes. As for reading books.. i am not up to the task to be doing that yet but what i do is.. take written script dialogues of drama's that i am watching from http://www.dramanote.com/ ..use furiganizer (http://www.furiganizer.com/) to get the readings.. then print it and read it out. I dont understand alot of the vocabs but i still read the sentences.

I go from Kanji to kana, i kinda believe that going kana to kanji goes against the input method in that your doing production instead of just input, production will come in time when you have had enough input also not to mention i can get much more sentences done doing kanji to kana than i would be able to do with kana to kanji which IMO you will learn Japanese much quicker with quantity.

Currently I'm also doing the AJATT method for almost a month now and have just passed the 500 card mark in anki and my Japanese ability has improved 10 fold compared to the last few years trying the old methods so for me the sentences method is working wonders, i'm keeping track of my progress like mentat_kgs over on my blog on the left.

Tobberoth Wrote:I can relate to your problem but I wouldn't worry. Words get imprinted HARD in your memory as you're exposed to them. You should be able to write 私 since it's in RtK, your problem is probably that you don't remember which of the RtK kanji is used to write わたし but as you read a lot of books etc, you'll see enough of the kanji in your mind to remember which one it is and then you'll be able to write it.

I agree. I also find that writing out the sentence during recognition, or at least the word, during reviews helps a lot. I tend to do this with verbs.

alyks Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:I can relate to your problem but I wouldn't worry. Words get imprinted HARD in your memory as you're exposed to them. You should be able to write 私 since it's in RtK, your problem is probably that you don't remember which of the RtK kanji is used to write わたし but as you read a lot of books etc, you'll see enough of the kanji in your mind to remember which one it is and then you'll be able to write it.

I agree. I also find that writing out the sentence during recognition, or at least the word, during reviews helps a lot. I tend to do this with verbs.

I do this too, especially with words I know too well. For example, I knew 絶対 long before RtK from exposure, so when i see it, I simply read it and move on.. suddenly I realized that I have no idea what kanji make up the word, I didn't know those kanji when I learned it. Therefor, I write it out from time to time when it comes up to make sure I get the actual kanji stuck in my brain. (For words like 製品 which I learned to read AFTER RtK, the problems aren't as big since I used my knowledge of the kanji during learning).

Just to add my success to this post...

While I quit RTK, I did most of another method of learning the kanji that is similar. I also did several hundred in iKnow and another vocab program.

A few months ago (before iKnow) I couldn't read simple manga like Yotsuba& at all. (I understand maybe 1 in 30 words... It was torture.) Today, I can read 2/3-3/4 of each chapter without even considering a dictionary. It's enough to know what's going on and enjoy the chapter.

I haven't done any AJATT at all and I'm sure (if I could find the time and energy) it would have gotten me to this point even faster.

mentat_kgs Wrote:My blog is all about progress reports. I have them recorded since I started RTK. Part is in this forum, the rest is in the blog.

http://onhowtolearn.blogspot.com/

Interesting read. I wouldn't do it the way you did (but that's only normal, to each his own method), but I think I'm going to look at the exemple sentences provided on yahoo dic and try to add "website navigation" vocab, because I usually feel lost when navigating japanese websites.

Just a small question though: how do you deal with this vocab? do you try to find sentences for each word or just add them "raw" in your srs?

Still another question: when you look at the sentences under 英和, are the example sentences refered under 慣用表現 (idiomatic expressions)?

Over the last few days, I've come to realize that it is definitely possible to learn written vocabulary using too much passive context (as in sentences) to the point where a given word is unrecognizable on it's own. For example, I've been playing a sound novel game understanding everything at over 90 percent accuracy because it is written out in sentences, but the game settings screen took me several minutes to fully understand. It's not that I don't know the words in terms of their pronunciation (although context seems to help me remember that better as well); it is just that their meanings aren't popping into my head. I also have this problem at Japanese grocery stores, restaurants, or anywhere else where words are typically not always in complete sentences. If I would have dwelled more on each word in terms of writing them out while reflecting upon the meaning when I was first learning them as some of you suggest, I might not have had this problem. Apparently, much of my vocab is still way too passive. At least I'm guessing that's the problem since I never focused much on production before.

As for a solution, I'm thinking about drilling single words again in addition to sentences, which was something I was formerly somewhat opposed to. I am also going to try more vocal output even it means talking to myself.

gilozoaire Wrote:Just a small question though: how do you deal with this vocab? do you try to find sentences for each word or just add them "raw" in your srs?

We find example sentences for the word. The point is to see how the word is used and what other words and particles interact with the word.

Just a quick update. I recently tried this test again:

http://www.mlcjapanese.co.jp/LevelCheck/Kanji/01.htm

The first time I passed it, I think I was at around 400 known kanjis (it includes meaning+readings), around a month ago. I scored 600 this time.
I compared that to the scores obtained in structured courses given in Belgium. Students of one particular institute view around 600 kanjis over 6 years. The scores of the most advanced students was in the 300-600 range. They mainly work with flashcards and learn kanjis with their readings. I hear the basic kanji book mentionned a lot.

Admittedly, this only tests kanji knowledge, and I'm sure their japanese is much better than mine. But as far as kanjis are concerned, it proves it is possible to progress very fast in that department, and that Heisig transfers well to learning sounds too.

I would be immensely interested if there were scientific experiments comparing Heisig to others methods, especially traditionnal study by learning radicals and phonological complements, or just rote memorization.

Hmmm, according to that test I scored 950 - 990 kanji (and there were a few compounds I've studied but wasn't able to remember, for some reason). So according to that test I could take the JLPT 2, yeah? Good stuff.

As long as we're giving scores, I got around 1600.

wOOt!

tibul Wrote:I go from Kanji to kana, i kinda believe that going kana to kanji goes against the input method in that your doing production instead of just input, production will come in time when you have had enough input...

You're mixing up input/output with production/recognition by the way. Production in the sense of kana to kanji, or audio to kanji IS input.

Tobberoth Wrote:Just to give some motivation, I can say that when you have enough experience with kanji and their pronounciations, you don't even need to have seen them. I watched my boss my hero and heard them talking about きまつしけん. I took out a pen and wrote it out: 期末試験. And that's without EVER having seen or heard 期末 before. I just realized it had to be that from the context and the readings.

This same thing happened to me last night. I was watching Chicago, and when the pianist handed the singer her music back he said　がくふ。I realized right away he meant her sheet music and you would write it as 楽譜, even though I had never heard the word before. It's a great feeling when that happens.