im nearing my 400th sentence and i know that i should start to draw away from English but, i don't know where to begin. can someone explain the whole j-j thing? i tried looking through the AJATT site but he did't give me enough information (-_-) HELP!

Just go to http://www.sanseido.net and look up the words you want to learn there. In the start, you will probably not understand the definitions, but the more you use it, the better you will get. Eventually you won't even need an English dictionary, just look words up on sanseido.net or other dictionaries like it.

At 400, it might be a bit too early for you but that depends on how well rounded your sentences are, how good your grasp is of Japanese grammar etc.

thats it? so simple could i have been this blind? thanks! wait? so im suppose to add sentences without english translation sentence just off the bat does that work? 0_0??

konakona50 Wrote:thats it? so simple could i have been this blind? thanks! wait? so im suppose to add sentences without english translation sentence just off the bat does that work? 0_0??

Yes, that is the idea. You go to some Japanese website, find a sentence you want in your SRS, use a japanese dictionary to get full understanding and put it in Anki.

It's important to realize that understanding is vital however. If you aren't good enough to understand the sentence using the japanese dictionary, you should skip the sentence and go for some easier material. Having sentences you don't fully understand in your SRS program can be detrimental to your studies.

OO! i see i see. im scared. thanks i think i get it now.

Tobberoth Wrote:Just go to http://www.sanseido.net and look up the words you want to learn there. In the start, you will probably not understand the definitions, but the more you use it, the better you will get. Eventually you won't even need an English dictionary, just look words up on sanseido.net or other dictionaries like it.

At 400, it might be a bit too early for you but that depends on how well rounded your sentences are, how good your grasp is of Japanese grammar etc.

Sanseido's dictionary is... very lacking, for lack of a better word. I think it would be best of you try to move past it as soon as possible. Yahoo's dictionaries are the "big boy" dictionaries and are better, but probably more difficult.

I mean, it's fine to start out with, but eventually there are better things when you get better.

Also, even if it is hard, just keep trying. Don't spend forever trying to understand a J-J definition. Try to get it, but if you can't, go to the J->E next. But try to always look up a word in J-J first so you get used to reading it.

Just keep at it and don't stress about it. It will come with time.

alyks Wrote:Sanseido's dictionary is... very lacking, for lack of a better word. I think it would be best of you try to move past it as soon as possible. Yahoo's dictionaries are the "big boy" dictionaries and are better, but probably more difficult.

Which one are you talking about though? 三省堂 publishes a bunch of different kokugo dictionaries (I have 5), including 大辞林, which is better than 広辞苑 in many respects. Of course I don't rely on a single one, I always cross reference between 広辞苑, 大辞林, 大辞泉, and 漢和大辞典 (for kanji).

-edit-

Quote:※ご利用いただける辞書は、三省堂『デイリーコンサイス国語辞典』です。

Nevermind, it looks like Sanseido's webpage uses a dictionary I don't even have. One of the other online sites uses Sanseido's daijirin though.

I mean the sanseido website one. The 大辞林 is definitely the best dictionary I've used. I personally found 広辞苑 to be a bit.. weird. Japanese people even have trouble with that one.

Yahoo's online dics are 大辞林 and 大辞泉. I think 大辞林 is better than 大辞泉 in many aspects, but that could be personal preference. 大辞泉 is still a good dictionary and I do use it to check my understanding, though.

Jarvik, what other dictionaries does sanseido make?

sutebun Wrote:Also, even if it is hard, just keep trying. Don't spend forever trying to understand a J-J definition. Try to get it, but if you can't, go to the J->E next. But try to always look up a word in J-J first so you get used to reading it.

Just keep at it and don't stress about it. It will come with time.

so i need to completely understand what being said in the dictionary when i am looking up a new word? im kinda confused now (-_-)

The 三省堂 ones I have are 3 different versions of 大辞林 (hybrid, super, and the newest edition which sadly isn't EPWING so I have to start up windows to use it :/), a set of 6 different special use J-J dictionaries (ことわざ、古語、外来語, etc), and 新明解国語辞典 (I rarely use this one). There are some more that I don't have copies on listed on this page, plus the one on Sanseido.net:

http://www.gally.net/translation/kokugo.htm

This site has some information on the various major kokugo dictionaries out there. It's not complete but it gives a pretty good summary of the differences/strengths of the various dicts.

konakona50 Wrote:so i need to completely understand what being said in the dictionary when i am looking up a new word? im kinda confused now (-_-)

I switched to J-J once I was able to read a definition and know most of the words in it. If you use J-J before that it might just be an exercise in frustration. You're still beginner-early intermediate iirc, so maybe you'd be better off with a children's j-j dictionary. There are none online/epwing that I know of though so you'd have to import a dead tree.

I use mainly the sanseido.net one, but as Toberoth and Alyks noticed, you should think of its definitions more like hints.

I do find sanseido great sometimes but also sometimes too simplistic. I have been going completely J-J recently, so if there are words in the definition I don't understand then I look them up to. Even if I give up, I will just let the word go until I am ready to understand the Japanese definition. There is also the case with sanseido where synonyms just reference each other as the definition, so if you don't know either then you can't figure it out.

To the OP. A good intermediary step is to use a Japanese dictionary first and if you don't understand the meaning, then use rikaichan (google it if you don't know what it is) to look up the English meaning of the words in the definition that you don't know. This way you can still learn the meaning of the word without just directly translating it to it's English counterpart.

Oh and for anyone that has a Mac and Leopard. The built in dictionary includes a J-J and J-E dictionary (although you have to enable it I think). It's really quite good, and all the words in a definition can be clicked on to take you to their meaning, so you can easily look up words you don't know in the definition. One thing though, you want to use the application itself, not the dashboard widget.

The answer to your question is that it's always the right time.

I use dictionary definitions from J-J dictionaries, or I write them myself. I also use gap-fill exercises. This means that I also take note of the context that I encountered the word in. As long as you encounter the word in a natural situation (conversation, book, film, TV, whatever), I think the context you encounter it in is more important than any definition in Japanese or English.

For example:

Q: ＿＿＿20年12月4日
A: 平成20年12月4日　（へいせい）

I was thinking about doing this myself, but the only problem I see is not learning the readings of the kanji. Do you still use gap-fills when the kanji are new to you?

wrightak Wrote:The answer to your question is that it's always the right time.

I use dictionary definitions from J-J dictionaries, or I write them myself. I also use gap-fill exercises. This means that I also take note of the context that I encountered the word in. As long as you encounter the word in a natural situation (conversation, book, film, TV, whatever), I think the context you encounter it in is more important than any definition in Japanese or English.

For example:

Q: ＿＿＿20年12月4日
A: 平成20年12月4日　（へいせい）

hu? what 0_0 can't say i really get what your saying. im probably too new on the scene to know what your talking about a bit more clarity would be nice. hey heres an idea explain it to me as if i was a 5 year old.....or maybe 3 year old would be better.

samesong Wrote:I was thinking about doing this myself, but the only problem I see is not learning the readings of the kanji. Do you still use gap-fills when the kanji are new to you?

I use an anki model that generates three cards - a reading card, a writing card, and a gap fill card. I therefore test myself on how to write the word, how to read it, and whether I can produce it, given the context that I originally encountered it in. I'll go through an example in the post below.

konakona50 Wrote:hu? what 0_0 can't say i really get what your saying. im probably too new on the scene to know what your talking about a bit more clarity would be nice. hey heres an idea explain it to me as if i was a 5 year old.....or maybe 3 year old would be better.

Sorry that I wasn't clear enough. I'll explain what I do, then I'll explain why I think it's valuable.

This is the situation: I come across a word that I don't understand and that I want to learn. For example, at the top of the piece of paper next to me now is the following:

平成20年12月2日

I recognize that this is the date, but I'm not familiar with 平成20年, so I decide to learn it and stick it into my Anki deck or whatever SRS I'm using. The model I use in Anki, looks like this. I enter this information:

Word: 平成
Reading: へいせい
Meaning: 日本での年を数える昔のシステム
Example: ＿＿＿20年12月2日

Anki then generates three cards for me, which look like this:

Reading
Q: 平成
＿＿＿20年12月2日
A:へいせい

Writing
Q:へいせい
＿＿＿20年12月2日
A: 平成

Gap Fill
Q:＿＿＿20年12月2日
日本での年を数える昔のシステム
A: 平成

The difficult part to input is the meaning. I usually just copy from a J-J dictionary but if you're starting out, you can write them yourself, or if you think that the example is unique enough, you can even leave it out. Writing the meaning yourself may sound challenging but it's good practice. I wrote the above by myself, and even something as na?ve as 日本のカレンダー would jog your memory enough to remember the word.

I hope that explains what I do. This is why I think gap fill exercises are good:

When you want to learn a word, I think the most valuable piece of information you have is the context that you encountered that word in. As long as you encountered the word from a native Japanese source, and not a Japanese student (like you and me), you know that it's natural. You know that this word can be used in this situation. To take another example, suppose I encounter the word 我慢. I could look it up in a dictionary and get something like "perseverance" or "patience" or "endurance" or whatever it says. I could also look it up in a J-J dictionary and get definitions in Japanese, which may be more accurate, or they may not be. This is all useful information but 我慢 is used in situations that the English words aren't and vice versa. Figuring out when you can use 我慢 given a Japanese definition is pretty hard too. The only way you can use the word again is to mimic the situation that you encountered it in. This is what kids do when they learn their native language.

I don't have cards that give me a word and then ask for the example. This would be too hard. The gap fill tests whether I can produce the word, given the situation that I originally encountered it. As long as I can remember the pronunciation, I pass the card. Writing is dealt with in a different card.

alyks Wrote:Sanseido's dictionary is... very lacking, for lack of a better word. I think it would be best of you try to move past it as soon as possible. Yahoo's dictionaries are the "big boy" dictionaries and are better, but probably more difficult.

Yahoo provides two 国語 dics, one of which is Sanseido. However, the Sanseido definitions on Yahoo come from 大辞林 and are much longer so the ones on Sanseido's own site must be from a more basic dictionary.

I actually find Yahoo too stodgy and I'm often after a more basic definition, so I might try the simpler dictionary for a while and see how I go.

For example, I looked up いよいよ and sanseido.net is simple and to the point:
いよいよ
１） ますます． （２） ついに． （３） 確かに．

Yahoo's Sanseido 大辞林 goes on and on:
いよいよ
［1］ 前よりも程度がはなはだしくなるさま。ますます。
［2］ その時期がついにやって来たさま。とうとう。
［3］ その時期が迫っているさま。
［4］ 確かに。ほんとうに。どちらともいえなかった物事が確実になったときなどに使う。

There is a problem with your card, 平成 doesn't mean 日本での年を数える昔のシステム
What will you put on a card for 昭和, 明治 etc?

(Yes I know it was just an example)

Jarvik7 Wrote:There is a problem with your card, 平成 doesn't mean 日本での年を数える昔のシステム

True! The example is the important bit. The meaning part isn't meant to define the word uniquely. There probably is a 昭和20年12月2日 but I wasn't around to put it in my deck back then, so I know which one to choose!

Thank you for the detailed post.

Unfortunately you're forbidden from posting any further, lest you want to totally ruin your sweet post count.

I don't want to start another "let's talk about sentences" thread, so I'll pose my question here.

I know that less is more when putting in sentences, and Wrightak, I would like to incorporate your idea into Anki, but here is my dilemma:

Let's say I run into a sentence (newspaper headline) like this:

ジョージア州上院選で共和党勝利　民主党安定多数ならず

There are two new words that I picked up reading this headline: 民主党 and 安定多数. I know it would be best to split it up into two separate sentences, but the more you divide the sentence up, the less context there is. And considering they're stuck right next to each other, it becomes difficult to do so. The chance of me forgetting where the sentence came from also increases.

How can I split a sentence up into two distinct elements without losing context?

There are a few comments I'd make.

Firstly, newspaper headlines in any language aren't necessarily the best source to study from. Grammatical structures are often omitted and things are generally abbreviated. I'd choose a sentence from the actual article instead.

Secondly, there are thousands of sentences you can use and if you think that this one's too difficult, you can always choose another one that's easier. You can build your vocabularly steadily instead of taking a sledgehammer to every sentence you come to. By all means look the words up and understand the sentence but you don't necessarily have to stick it all into Anki. Choose the ones that you think are more useful first.

Thirdly, when I encounter sentences with two unknown words and I decide that it's worth sticking it into Anki, I just create a facts for each word and act as if there's no problem. Each of the card states which word you're testing, so when you're reading the sentence, if you get the word being tested right, you pass the card and ignore the fact that you couldn't read the other word. You'll see the card for that one later. My experience is that reading is by far the easiest card.

Thank you.