wrightak Wrote:I use an anki model that generates three cards - a reading card, a writing card, and a gap fill card.

How do you prioritize them in Anki?
Or you don't?

@wrightak

I'm a little bit confused on how you're setting up your cards.

Reading
Q: 平成
＿＿＿20年12月2日
A:平成

Is the answer supposed to be in kanji as well, or was that a typo? (I was thinking you meant へいせい and accidentally hit the space bar, but I could be wrong. I want to make sure it's clear.)

I'm looking at gap-fill cards now, as well as dumping English translations and going J-J, because I'm reaching a point where I think just using reading/writing cards and using English is starting to give diminishing returns. I can read just fine, and I can write just fine, but my grammar just isn't where I want it to be, and I'm just not progressing like I want to.

My cards are a lot like this:

Reading:
Q: 住宅を購入する場合、低金利でお金を借りられる。
A: じゅうたくをこうにゅうするばあい、ていきんりでおかねをかりられる。
When purchasing a house, you could have a loan with low interest.

Writing:
Q: じゅうたくをこうにゅうするばあい、ていきんりでおかねをかりられる。
A: 住宅を購入する場合、低金利でお金を借りられる。
When purchasing a house, you could have a loan with low interest.

So I've been looking at adding gap-fill cards that target particles, conjugations, and phrases and such. Do your gap-fill cards primarily target vocabulary, or do you also use them for things like particles, conjugations, and other grammar functions? If so, what has your experience been like? Because while my vocabulary is pretty good, my grammar just isn't where I want it to be.

iSoron Wrote:How do you prioritize them in Anki?
Or you don't?

I don't.

rich_f Wrote:Is the answer supposed to be in kanji as well, or was that a typo? (I was thinking you meant へいせい and accidentally hit the space bar, but I could be wrong. I want to make sure it's clear.)

Your diagnosis was completely accurate. I?ve corrected the original post. Bad place to have a typo, sorry about that.

Quote:So I've been looking at adding gap-fill cards that target particles, conjugations, and phrases and such. Do your gap-fill cards primarily target vocabulary, or do you also use them for things like particles, conjugations, and other grammar functions? If so, what has your experience been like? Because while my vocabulary is pretty good, my grammar just isn't where I want it to be.

I don?t do particles but I have thought about it in the past. If you give it a try I?d be interested to hear how you go.

Conjugations have never been a problem for me, I just drill them until I don't make mistakes or hesitate. Drilling is better than an SRS for those I think.

In order to revise for the JLPT, I created a load of gap fill grammar cards for each of the points in the Unicom books. I think they worked ok and helped but nothing spectacular. They're essentially the same as the actual questions you get in the JLPT but without the multiple choice.

With grammar points, there are a few things you need to do I think. First, you've got to decide whether you want to be productive with that grammar structure. A lot of the JLPT grammar points are unique to formal writing, which I place a pretty low priority on when it comes to learning how to use them. Understanding those grammar structures is enough for me. With those, I read the descriptions, discuss with a Japanese teacher and make sure I get the gist. I then make a gap fill card.

If the grammar point is useful and common, I want to learn how to produce it. For that, I try to make sentences that use the grammar point, get those checked by a teacher and have them explain why I used the structure correctly for the good sentences and why I got it wrong for the bad sentences. I think that grammar is one of those areas where you need some help from a native.

Yeah, I was giving particles and conjugations as examples, but I don't want to limit myself to just those sorts of things. I saw how the Antimoon guys set up their cards, and that intrigued me as well. They use some fill-in-the-blank stuff, too.

My main goal is to be able to produce comfortably, and to know which particles to use. No forcing. From my past experiences using Anki, I don't think this will feel like forcing over time.

For now, I'll probably limit myself to using short sentences from some of the drill books I have. (Like the 短期集中初級日本語文法総まとめポイント２０ book I have, or I'll use some of the other stuff from my Pile o' Books.) I think I'm going to try to focus on adding a few sentences at a time, maybe 8-10, that all focus on one specific grammar point. That shouldn't be too hard to do.

I will probably need to figure out card models and such. For grammar fill-in-the-blank drilling, I don't need writing cards (that's what the f-i-t-b card is for) ... should I still go with a reading card, though, just so I can encounter the sentence as it is? But then the question is, what do I put on the back of the reading card, if there aren't any questions about kanji or anything? Definitions, I guess?

We'll see how it goes.

rich_f Wrote:I will probably need to figure out card models and such. For grammar fill-in-the-blank drilling, I don't need writing cards (that's what the f-i-t-b card is for) ... should I still go with a reading card, though, just so I can encounter the sentence as it is? But then the question is, what do I put on the back of the reading card, if there aren't any questions about kanji or anything? Definitions, I guess?

We'll see how it goes.

I've been making gap-fill cards for grammar for the past few months studying for the JLPT myself, so I can offer you what I have been doing.

On the front of the card is a simple gap-fill:

私は英語＿____、英語や数学の授業も受けています。

Then on the back of the card I have information I jotted down from the grammar explanation proviced in the textbook I'm using:

★ (pg 69)★　～ばかりではなく　【～だけでなく】

●　～だけでなく、範囲はもっと大きく外に及ぶ」と言いたい時に使う

★　　　　　　　　★

If the grammar is self explanitory, I just leave the back side blank.

Wrightek, awesome idea and example.

I've been ham-handedly doing a version of the gap-fill when doing iKnow. With "completed" words, your reviews on those start with them showing and saying the sentence to you. You figure out the highlighted word. So I've been avoiding looking at the sentence and glancing to see what part of the sentence the highlighted word is (or based off the photo). Then I write it down. Very annoying.

I've been begging the developers to make it so you see the Kanji sentence with the word you're trying to figure out written in kana.

That said, if someone can figure how to get a working spreadsheet that has: Vocabulary Word, Kana vocabulary word, Sentence, Kana sentence, Photo, Audio, English word translation, English sentence translation then we can automatically create a variant of wrightak's gap fill in Anki.

Recognition - Here, I see the sentence and the photo. I would fail the card if I cannot pronounce the first word or know what it means. I still will try to read the sentence, but I won't fail the card if I mis-read 病気 or not know exactly what it means.
Q: 「死ぬ」　「僕の犬は病気で死んでました」
A:　「しぬ」　「ぼくのいぬはびょうきでしんでました」

Production - Here, I hear the sentence, but can also see the kana. The photo will also be shown. My answer is writing out the word in kanji just by hearing the word and how it's used in the sentence. I try to imagine the whole sentence's meaning, but I won't fail the card for that.
Q:　「しぬ」　「ぼくのいぬはびょうきでしんでました」
A: 「死ぬ」　「僕の犬は病気で死んでました」

In both of these, I can put the definition of the word. J-J is best, but we can use the J-E early on then go back and replace them in time. You can also show the English word and sentence on the answer side.

It's limiting yourself to just the word being taught that's the key to speedy progression. I and others were doing production where we'd write out the entire sentence. This quickly led to enourmous time wasted enforcing things that did not need it (the gods know how many times I wrote out 私 and ありませんでした). I can handle writing 150 words if my reviews back up, but the idea of 150 sentences would make me not want to review. Now that's a bad mindset to have.

Problem is no one can easily do the above with iKnow sentences. Although one of us did a bulk stripping of the iKnow's common core sentences. We were limited to Sentence, Kana Sentence, Thumbnail photo and Audio of the sentence. We're missing Word, Kana Word, Audio Word that the sentences are there to train. I'm sure that as the API gets studied, some will be able to get these other three elements (it's legal as all items are CC). Hell, maybe someone will make an API that combines Anki and iKnow. Granted, I still would like an offline version.

For production, I just streamlined it. No notebooks, no writing out kana, no writing out kanji I already knew cold. I only traced out the kanji I was trying to remember with my finger in the air or on the tabletop, whatever. (Or just imagined writing it if that wasn't possible without looking dorky.) That alone saves a ton of time.

That's been working just as well for remembering vocab as when I was writing every last word out and driving myself nuts. It's pretty much like gap-filling, only with kana hints, and it saves a ton of time. Production was really becoming a complete and utter drag until I streamlined it (or stripped it down, however you want to look at it.)

I think production still has its merits, and I plan to keep doing it, but I just don't plan to obsess too much over it like I used to. It tends to take care of itself if your sentences are manageable. The KO sentences tend to run to the big side of manageable, and sometimes require adding extra, shorter sentences from dictionaries and such to isolate vocab. Frustrating at times. But KO has a very useful order. (Just not so useful for grammar.)

Bah, I need to stop talking about this and start working on it.