I think a non native who reached a high level of fluency would be a better teacher than a native anyways. They know what parts you will probably have problems with and tricks to get through different things. They will know a lot more about how to fix your bad habits too. Really, I can't think of any reason a native would be a better teacher.

That makes me wonder -- all of us may actually be quite excellent at getting people to fluency. Khatz isn't a teacher -- but he seems to have helped many of you...

cracky Wrote:I think a non native who reached a high level of fluency would be a better teacher than a native anyways. They know what parts you will probably have problems with and tricks to get through different things. They will know a lot more about how to fix your bad habits too. Really, I can't think of any reason a native would be a better teacher.

A native speaker is nice simply for the very subtle nuances conveyed in language. You could book-learn and speak perfectly -- but sound very unnatural. Then again, this could probably be fixed by getting lots of input.

as far as why Japanese companies choose native English speakers vs. non native but fluent English speakers--in my experience, as in, how things are with Amity, it's because we're not teaching things like grammar....we have Japanese teachers who speak both English and Japanese do that. The native English teacher's lessons are very conversation based. In almost all of mine the student speaking time is at least 80%. We don't teach lessons like a normal class like you would see in an elementary school or something. It may be unfair, but this part of the reasoning. I think if you could demonstrate your fluency you would still have a chance to be a teacher, but you would have to sound pretty close to a native English speaker. Of course I can't speak for all eikaiwa, but that's how it is at mine.

No doubt your English is near perfect but I disagree with you on your point 3.

Tobberoth Wrote:3. Teachers don't give input. They hold class and answer questions. The input is gotten from the textbooks.

Unless the student is a motivated self-studier, or like in your case, has access to tons of English media, your teacher might be providing you with your primary spoken input. Not a good situation, but it exists. Also just want to add that at the eikaiwa I worked at we barely opened the books during class. In any case, I completely agree that you should be able to be an English teacher if you're qualified, and that people can benefit greatly from non-native teachers.

I suspect the reasons of these companies are mostly just practical. They interview literally hundreds of people, and one way to avoid having to assess people's English abilities (which in spite of internationally recognized tests, we can probably agree language assessment is difficult to standardize) is to have a requirement that they are native speakers, attended university in English, etc.
The other may have to do with visa applications, just guessing. It's probably much easier for them to claim they need to hire a foreigner if that foreigner is a native speaker of English, since they have non-native speakers of English in Japan. There are doubtless many people better than many of the Japanese national speakers, but many countries have hiring requirements that work like that...

A man I met working for eikaiwa said they won't hire Japanese Americans or Asian Americans in general either. These people grew up in the USA speaking only English, then learned Japanese as adults as a 2nd language, but somehow they aren't native English speakers because their grandparents weren't.

kokeshidoll17 Wrote:as far as why Japanese companies choose native English speakers vs. non native but fluent English speakers

My friend was talking about possibly getting a job teaching English in Japan and he said they were specifically looking for teachers that didn't speak Japanese. I imagine it was so that there was no temptation to try to converse in Japanese during the class.

Personally, I love the idea of doing this, but I don't quite fit since I'd want to speak Japanese enough to get around before moving there. Still, it seems like it would be a fun job.

PrettyKitty Wrote:A man I met working for eikaiwa said they won't hire Japanese Americans or Asian Americans in general either. These people grew up in the USA speaking only English, then learned Japanese as adults as a 2nd language, but somehow they aren't native English speakers because their grandparents weren't.

I worked with a Japanese-American so luckily at least some companies aren't that bad...

PrettyKitty Wrote:A man I met working for eikaiwa said they won't hire Japanese Americans or Asian Americans in general either. These people grew up in the USA speaking only English, then learned Japanese as adults as a 2nd language, but somehow they aren't native English speakers because their grandparents weren't.

Did they actually state that as the reason, or might it be because they aren't Caucasian and therefore the atmosphere isn't right? I think it has little to do with the language at all.

Guys, I was talking about Katz!

He said it had something to do with growing up with Japanese people in your family can make your English unnatural. But then he was just an employee so he can't really say for sure what their reasoning was. They probably made it sound better in their policies. Basically, if you're white or black and don't know any Japanese, you're a good candidate to work there.

He also said it's best if you don't know any Japanese at all. The more Japanese you know, the more unnatural your English becomes. And yes, he did say that was their official reasoning for that one. Not fear that you'll speak Japanese, but that your English becomes unnatural.

PrettyKitty Wrote:Not fear that you'll speak Japanese, but that your English becomes unnatural.

That's just... insane. There's no way that will happen, just like there's no way me learning Japanese will effect my native Swedish.

Teaching in Japan was one of the greatest experiences of my life. Despite the fact I was working for the notorious NOVA.

If you are not dependant on the school for a visa, then get a few part time jobs rather than one full time job. The pay is much better. If you are dependant on a visa and find the school you teach for is in some way abusive (NOVA for example), your visa is yours and can not be taken away by the school. Go find a better job.

Be careful of housing. I rented my own three bedroom house in Nara for 50,000 yen per month. The teachers I was working with were paying 60,000 per month to share NOVA housing with two other teachers while the school made a huge profit.

If your goal is to learn Japanese while there, don't spend too much time with co-workers after work. You will get into a trap of speaking only English. I knew teachers who were in Japan for ten years and did not know how to say "good morning" in Japanese. Make Japanese friends who know just a little English.

It is too bad the bias towards teachers from English speaking countries. I worked with a couple of Scottish teachers and could only make out every other word they spoke. I had some German friends away from work who spoke with a less pronounced accent than what someone living here in Hawaii would have.

Tobberoth Wrote:

PrettyKitty Wrote:Not fear that you'll speak Japanese, but that your English becomes unnatural.

That's just... insane. There's no way that will happen, just like there's no way me learning Japanese will effect my native Swedish.

Actually, I can't disagree with that. Having learned a little Spanish and Japanese, I now pay more attention to the 'rules' of English than I did before and I -do- speak differently. That's not to say I can't still speak like I used to, 10 years ago, but it's definitely not what just happens now.

I talk to a Chinese girl in English because she's learning, and I find I say things differently to her as well, simply because I know it's unlikely she'll know the slang. I'm forced to explain it or talk around it, and being harder to understand doesn't seem like a good thing. Had she never said she was learning English, I probably wouldn't do this. Had I never started to learn other languages, I probably wouldn't worry about the English I use.

wccrawford Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:

PrettyKitty Wrote:Not fear that you'll speak Japanese, but that your English becomes unnatural.

That's just... insane. There's no way that will happen, just like there's no way me learning Japanese will effect my native Swedish.

Actually, I can't disagree with that. Having learned a little Spanish and Japanese, I now pay more attention to the 'rules' of English than I did before and I -do- speak differently. That's not to say I can't still speak like I used to, 10 years ago, but it's definitely not what just happens now.

I talk to a Chinese girl in English because she's learning, and I find I say things differently to her as well, simply because I know it's unlikely she'll know the slang. I'm forced to explain it or talk around it, and being harder to understand doesn't seem like a good thing. Had she never said she was learning English, I probably wouldn't do this. Had I never started to learn other languages, I probably wouldn't worry about the English I use.

You're very right. I actually find myself doing the same thing when talking to native speakers. I've also greatly enriched my knowledge of English grammatical rules while learning Spanish and Japanese.

Admittedly, I don't speak like I did 10 years ago...mostly because I was 5... But even from when I started learning Spanish[in August], I've noticed more and more things about my [and other people's] grammar and manner of speaking.

Tobberoth Wrote:That's just... insane. There's no way that will happen, just like there's no way me learning Japanese will effect my native Swedish.

Why not? My English has gotten noticeably worse since I don't use it much anymore. Thank jebus for spellcheck.

Jarvik7 Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:That's just... insane. There's no way that will happen, just like there's no way me learning Japanese will effect my native Swedish.

Why not? My English has gotten noticeably worse since I don't use it much anymore. Thank jebus for spellcheck.

Well that's different since you're living in Japan, seems natural you get worse as you stop using a language (though I didn't get noticably worse at Swedish while living in Japan, i DID get noticebly worse at English.. I didn't just stop using it mostly, I actively tried not to.) If you worked at an eikaiwa school you'd be using English way more than Japanese, so I doubt the same effect would be felt.

I switched to velcro shoe laces for one year. When i went back to string, I had all kinds of problems. "Let's see, the rabbit goes over, then under, then through"

My English changes depending on who I'm talking to. I don't really think that has much to do with what other languages I've studied. If I feel the person I'm speaking with doesn't understand, I try to use easier words or speak more clearly, whether they are a foreigner learning English, or a young child, or an older person that doesn't understand slang.

Perhaps my uncle would be a perfect conversation teacher for eikaiwa. He never alters his slangy speech for people with low English skills, just repeats it louder. Maybe if he yells it loud enough they'll understand.

PrettyKitty Wrote:A man I met working for eikaiwa said they won't hire Japanese Americans or Asian Americans in general either. These people grew up in the USA speaking only English, then learned Japanese as adults as a 2nd language, but somehow they aren't native English speakers because their grandparents weren't.

That's not true. I know a lot of Asian looking English native speakers that work here as English teacher and they didn't have any problems at all during the hiring process. Even at my school we have one.

wccrawford Wrote:My friend was talking about possibly getting a job teaching English in Japan and he said they were specifically looking for teachers that didn't speak Japanese. I imagine it was so that there was no temptation to try to converse in Japanese during the class.

Some schools tell you NOT to speak Japanese with your students at all. I'm allowed to speak Japanese with my students although I try to keep it English only during the lessons, but as I teach kids as young as 2 years old I of course HAVE to use Japanese at times.
On the other hand there are even schools that cheer on your attempts in learning Japanese. Some even offer you some extra money if you want to attend Japanese classes. Awesome!
Some day I wanna get a job at a school like that, but like I mentioned before I'm not a native speaker and that's why it's harder for me to get a job. I can't be too picky.
Anyway, I like my current school and my coworkers (esp. the Japanese ones). My work conditions might not be the best (almost no free time at all), but I wouldn't stay if I hated it a lot

bodhisamaya Wrote:If your goal is to learn Japanese while there, don't spend too much time with co-workers after work. You will get into a trap of speaking only English. I knew teachers who were in Japan for ten years and did not know how to say "good morning" in Japanese. Make Japanese friends who know just a little English.

I do speak quite a lot with my coworkers. It's usually a mixture of Japanese and English. Lately they only talk in Japanese to me because they know I understand almost everything anyway. I don't mind speaking English either - I want to improve my English, too. I can't use my native language here at all as nobody would be able to understand what I'm saying anyway *g*

But yes I'm always surprised and mainly SHOCKED when I meet people (especially guys that are married to a Japanese woman) who have been living here for 10 years, 15 years and still are below a basic Japanese level. Apparently they let their wives handle everything. *shakes head*

Quote:I had some German friends away from work who spoke with a less pronounced accent than what someone living here in Hawaii would have.

Glad to hear that (as I'm German )

Can't you teach other languages besides english?
I mean, teach your own languages? Are there only schools for english?

mentat_kgs Wrote:Can't you teach other languages besides english?
I mean, teach your own languages? Are there only schools for english?

You can, there are schools that teach other languages, too.
For German it's the "Goethe Institut" for example, BUT those schools aren't satisfied with "just" native speakers. You have to have a BUNCH of qualifications on top of that (teaching certificate, teaching experience, your native language as a second language qualification etc.).

So .. whereas native speakers of English have it rather easy to get a job here (only qualification needed apart from a passport from an English speaking country [which isn't even a qualification but .. whatever] is a bachelor degree). The immigration office doesn't care about anything else. They don't care if those people are qualified to teach English at all.
I've met a lot of teachers in training seminars and HOLY COW some of them were so not qualified for being a teacher!!

The bigger problem btw. is not getting a job, but getting a work visa. Even if employers might hire you, the immigration office might not give you a work visa.
I currently have this problem. They told me as I'm German they could easily give me a work visa for being a German teacher, but I'm an English teacher here, so getting a work visa might be tough.
I can report back here in a few months when I know if they rejected my application or not (-____-') *sigh* So complicated I tell you!


Oh and the visa you get for an eikaiwa job is different from the one you get when you're working as ALT, so be careful.
I was told that I won't be able to get a visa as ALT because then nationality really matters (am not sure if that's really true).
Actually I want to be an ALT, too, at least once. I couldn't apply for the JET programme in my country as there was no position free. Unlike in English speaking countries we don't have 23424123123 open positions per year, but more like 0-2 and still 23413123 people that want to get in. Of course the requirements are tougher than for English JETs, too *sigh*
I'm still thinking about a CIR position, though.
Once my Japanese has gotten good enough and if I still want to live here in Japan at that time, I might try and apply for that position then.


['/rant]

I think there would quickly be an oversupply for anyone teaching anything but English. I've only met one Japanese person who speaks another language, and that was on top of English. He speaks French, English, Korean and some Chinese.

Weird.
lang-8 is full of people wanting to learn portuguese. Probably there are many more wanting to learn fancier languages like French and German.

chochajin Wrote:

PrettyKitty Wrote:A man I met working for eikaiwa said they won't hire Japanese Americans or Asian Americans in general either. These people grew up in the USA speaking only English, then learned Japanese as adults as a 2nd language, but somehow they aren't native English speakers because their grandparents weren't.

That's not true. I know a lot of Asian looking English native speakers that work here as English teacher and they didn't have any problems at all during the hiring process. Even at my school we have one.

Maybe it was just the place he was working for then. I'm glad to hear this isn't common of all eikaiwa.