liosama Wrote:Every god damn thread I see here is about "finishing JLPT2 in 2 months" or some absurd nonsense.

This is refreshing. I'm getting quite sick of those threads--plus, making outrageous claims certainly aren't making RTKers look any better, since that is exactly what they're usually accused of by the Japanese learning status quo.

When people are talking about passing the JLPT1 in 3 months of study from scratch, those naysayers become 100% right.

Gah, and here I was, hoping maybe someone had found an answer key for the books. >_<

Here's my trick to learning Japanese: Hard Work, followed by more Hard Work. The trick is to cover it in Fun Sauce. The more Fun Sauce you use, the faster it'll seem that time goes by, to the point that it'll *appear* that you hit JLPT 1 in 3 months... but the reality will be that it's more like 3-5 years. Because only an idiot would think they could pass JLPT 1 in 3 months.

So sick of those threads. -_-

rich_f Wrote:Gah, and here I was, hoping maybe someone had found an answer key for the books. >_<

Here's my trick to learning Japanese: Hard Work, followed by more Hard Work. The trick is to cover it in Fun Sauce. The more Fun Sauce you use, the faster it'll seem that time goes by, to the point that it'll *appear* that you hit JLPT 1 in 3 months... but the reality will be that it's more like 3-5 years. Because only an idiot would think they could pass JLPT 1 in 3 months.

So sick of those threads. -_-

3-5 years?
Two years is a reasonable time frame to reach JLPT1 level if you follow a method like AJATT or similar.

thecite Wrote:3-5 years?
Two years is a reasonable time frame to reach JLPT1 level if you follow a method like AJATT or similar.

Ah second that.

ha ha ha. Every thread on this damn forum seems to end up in an argument about how long it takes to reach JLPT1 !! I think hours is a more appropriate measure than years. But I second the 3-5 years as being a reasonable estimate.

I thought we all agreed that you can do it in 3 months...

MeNoSavvy Wrote:ha ha ha. Every thread on this damn forum seems to end up in an argument about how long it takes to reach JLPT1 !! I think hours is a more appropriate measure than years. But I second the 3-5 years as being a reasonable estimate.

Wrong. I've been doing AJATT for 2 months; I put this text book on the shelf in favour of taking natural sentences using AJATT, and I pulled this out earlier tonight, and found that I'd covered 90% of the grammar from my 3,000 sentences I've collected in two months.
I expect to be fluent within less than a year.
Now I'm gonna go and burn this book. Useless piece of junk. If I was gonna sentence mine grammar textbooks, I'd only use the dictionary of intermediate/advanced grammar or どんな時、どう使う. Any other structured grammar books are a waste of time.

It is interesting that of all the people who say they can pass JLPT in only 3 months, 6 months, or some other short study time, none of them has actually passed the test. And none of them are fluent either. Mostly they appear to be people who have only just started studying, or have been studying a few months. Moreover they "expect to be fluent", not that they actually are fluent.

Maybe come back when you've passed the test. In any event most people have other stuff to do, they can't sit around in their room or their parent's basement all day mining sentences and watching anime.

MeNoSavvy Wrote:It is interesting that of all the people who say they can pass JLPT in only 3 months, 6 months, or some other short study time, none of them has actually passed the test. And none of them are fluent either. Mostly they appear to be people who have only just started studying, or have been studying a few months. Moreover they "expect to be fluent", not that they actually are fluent.

Maybe come back when you've passed the test. In any event most people have other stuff to do, they can't sit around in their room or their parent's basement all day mining sentences and watching anime.

Agreed.

I'm yet to sit it but I definitely think that newcomers underestimate the amount of work that has to go in to reach that level of understanding needed to pass either JLPT1 or 2.
I'm also beginning to see how someone could pass JLPT 1 without being able to say more than the most basic sentences in Japanese.

Having said that, goals are good. We need goals. I'm taking 2kyuu this year as a goal.

Guess I better go sentence rape... i mean... sentence mine... Japans anime archive.

finally an anki deck !!
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=5820

thecite Wrote:

MeNoSavvy Wrote:ha ha ha. Every thread on this damn forum seems to end up in an argument about how long it takes to reach JLPT1 !! I think hours is a more appropriate measure than years. But I second the 3-5 years as being a reasonable estimate.

Wrong. I've been doing AJATT for 2 months; I put this text book on the shelf in favour of taking natural sentences using AJATT, and I pulled this out earlier tonight, and found that I'd covered 90% of the grammar from my 3,000 sentences I've collected in two months.
I expect to be fluent within less than a year.
Now I'm gonna go and burn this book. Useless piece of junk. If I was gonna sentence mine grammar textbooks, I'd only use the dictionary of intermediate/advanced grammar or どんな時、どう使う. Any other structured grammar books are a waste of time.

Wait, what do you mean? First of all, for the book do you mean An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese? Do you mean you started studying Japanese 2 months ago, or that you were studying Japanese for a while, then you switched to AJATT?

Tzadeck Wrote:

thecite Wrote:

MeNoSavvy Wrote:ha ha ha. Every thread on this damn forum seems to end up in an argument about how long it takes to reach JLPT1 !! I think hours is a more appropriate measure than years. But I second the 3-5 years as being a reasonable estimate.

Wrong. I've been doing AJATT for 2 months; I put this text book on the shelf in favour of taking natural sentences using AJATT, and I pulled this out earlier tonight, and found that I'd covered 90% of the grammar from my 3,000 sentences I've collected in two months.
I expect to be fluent within less than a year.
Now I'm gonna go and burn this book. Useless piece of junk. If I was gonna sentence mine grammar textbooks, I'd only use the dictionary of intermediate/advanced grammar or どんな時、どう使う. Any other structured grammar books are a waste of time.

Wait, what do you mean? First of all, for the book do you mean An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese? Do you mean you started studying Japanese 2 months ago, or that you were studying Japanese for a while, then you switched to AJATT?

It doesn't matter really. Can't you see? The guy implies that he's a language genius, and we're not *Raschaverak bows head*

And where did he go anyway? He's supposed to be fluent now...

Raschaverak Wrote:It doesn't matter really. Can't you see? The guy implies that he's a language genius, and we're not *Raschaverak bows head*

Haha. I'm just trying to assess how ridiculous his claim is.

Raschaverak Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:

thecite Wrote:Wrong. I've been doing AJATT for 2 months; I put this text book on the shelf in favour of taking natural sentences using AJATT, and I pulled this out earlier tonight, and found that I'd covered 90% of the grammar from my 3,000 sentences I've collected in two months.
I expect to be fluent within less than a year.
Now I'm gonna go and burn this book. Useless piece of junk. If I was gonna sentence mine grammar textbooks, I'd only use the dictionary of intermediate/advanced grammar or どんな時、どう使う. Any other structured grammar books are a waste of time.

Wait, what do you mean? First of all, for the book do you mean An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese? Do you mean you started studying Japanese 2 months ago, or that you were studying Japanese for a while, then you switched to AJATT?

It doesn't matter really. Can't you see? The guy implies that he's a language genius, and we're not *Raschaverak bows head*

In the first post, he talks about his level.
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=3353

Raschaverak Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:

thecite Wrote:Wrong. I've been doing AJATT for 2 months; I put this text book on the shelf in favour of taking natural sentences using AJATT, and I pulled this out earlier tonight, and found that I'd covered 90% of the grammar from my 3,000 sentences I've collected in two months.
I expect to be fluent within less than a year.
Now I'm gonna go and burn this book. Useless piece of junk. If I was gonna sentence mine grammar textbooks, I'd only use the dictionary of intermediate/advanced grammar or どんな時、どう使う. Any other structured grammar books are a waste of time.

Wait, what do you mean? First of all, for the book do you mean An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese? Do you mean you started studying Japanese 2 months ago, or that you were studying Japanese for a while, then you switched to AJATT?

It doesn't matter really. Can't you see? The guy implies that he's a language genius, and we're not *Raschaverak bows head*

A year? If you can get it, that would be amazing. But I'm hardcore and I still don't feel close to being fluent and it's been 9.8 months. So 4.2 months left to being a year. I doubt I can become fluent by that time, but i believe I will become good by that time. It seriously depends on what your doing I guess. For me I believe i'll be fluent around 2 years, that's my guess. If not then, 3 years oh man I will no matter what.

An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese is a great textbook I think, well worth studying And as other posters noted, Genki I and II covered over four semesters is the common practice. Very few students in university Japanese classes are majoring in Japanese, nor can/want to devote the time necessary to progressing much faster than that. If professors taught faster, the students would simply be unable to keep up. They are focusing on other classes, have social lives, jobs, etc. and studying a foreign language is a serious time-slayer.

And while I think it's great to keep motivated and to try to learn as much as you can at the best rate you can, I think having too unrealistic goals might just set people up for dissapointment. I remember the whole "JLPT 1 in three months!" thread, for example At a university pace, 3-4 years is around the time it takes to reach JLPT 2, let alone JLPT1.

And as much I think JLPT 1 is a great goal, it is no where even close to fluency in the language in my humble opinion. It covers a huge amount of grammar, certainly, but the amount of vocabulary (around 10,000 I believe) is only a drop in the bucket, and the sheer amount of words itself takes quite a lot of years. 10,000 might seem like a lot, but when you realize the sheer amount of vocabulary that exists for all the different fields and realms you encounter in a language, you'd be practically illiterate only knowing that many.

I think a few years is fine for basic conversational fluency, but if dropped off in a university course in Japan with only a few years of the language under their belt, the person would be quite screwed.

Aijin Wrote:And as much I think JLPT 1 is a great goal, it is no where even close to fluency in the language in my humble opinion. It covers a huge amount of grammar, certainly, but the amount of vocabulary (around 10,000 I believe) is only a drop in the bucket, and the sheer amount of words itself takes quite a lot of years. 10,000 might seem like a lot, but when you realize the sheer amount of vocabulary that exists for all the different fields and realms you encounter in a language, you'd be practically illiterate only knowing that many.
I think a few years is fine for basic conversational fluency, but if dropped off in a university course in Japan with only a few years of the language under their belt, the person would be quite screwed.

Awww, come on..what is this, the discouragement thread 2??? I gues you just don't realize how discouarging this is, to read...JLPT 1 isn't near fluency...right, right.
Let me gues, it barely reaches the language capabilites of a 10 year old Japnese persons's....well this may be true. I just know, that logically, JLPT1 is the highest in it's category... I know there are other types of language exams for japanese, but still.
So logically thinking If I do the highest level of a language exam, there's no way, that it can be considered "far away" from fluency. There's just no way. The requirement for any language exam is, that at the highest levels of the exam you have to be somehwat / if not fully fluent....that's it. Please stop discouarging people
I know in english for insance I only did a pathetic sate exam, the highest level, and I haven't enconuntered anything in english I couldn't really understand, at least to a 70% comprehension rate....neither in written nor in audio form. Whatever I read, hear, I can always at least figure out the gist of it....so you are saying that with JLPT1 that's not possibile? Hm....
I can even understand nestors's posts

Raschaverak Wrote:So logically thinking If I do the highest level of a language exam, there's no way, that it can be considered "far away" from fluency. There's just no way. The requirement for any language exam is, that at the highest levels of the exam you have to be somehwat / if not fully fluent....that's it.

You might like to think this, but there's no particular reason to think that the people who draw up the curriculum and set the levels for foreign language exams will all agree with you (especially for something like the JLPT they will be looking at what level of competence employers find useful and also at whether there will be enough candidates who want to take each level). So if you want to claim that JLPT1 level is or is not "near fluency" you need to actually look at what it does or doesn't cover. You can't just say "it's the highest level so it must be good"...

I know a couple of people with JLPT1 who are no where near fluent in terms of speaking. It's only a reading and listening test remember.

Nope, JLPT1 doesn't mean fluency. Even on the new standard.

This could lead into another debate on "what fluency is," but I think most people can agree (especially those who have, or are near, JLPT1 level) that it's not fluency.

I'd still say it's a decent goal to reach for if you're below level 1. But I wouldn't say that just because you've passed the test that you'll necessarily consider yourself fluent.

There was a discouragement thread 1?

I really, really don't mean to be discouraging! JLPT 1 is a great accomplishment for a foreigner, taking an insane amount of time, hard work, and sheer dedication. I think anyone who devotes themselves so intensely to something that they can achieve a goal like that is very remarkable! And I don't mean to say that the JLPT 1 is a joke or anything by any means, the kanji and grammar it covers is the most significant part of it I think.

But at the same time I think it's good to understand that the test is designed for foreigners, and to meet specific needs. I was just trying to express that in terms of vocabulary, it's a far way from fluency. I only meant to say that because I often see people reachings things like JLPT 1, and being frustrated with themselves that they still have so much difficulty in the language, have to use dictionaries constantly, etc. But at the same time I didn't mean to cause despair or anything!

In my opinion vocabulary is the hardest beast to tackle in learning Japanese as a second language. Ignoring the amount of immersion required to learn the feeling of different words and which situations each is used in to portray what image/tone/feeling, etc. the overwhelming quantity is what is akin to standing on the bottom of Mt. Everest and looking up for some people, I think.

The reason a lot of people become discouraged, I believe, is that it's simply so easy for people to not realize the overwhelming amount of words they know in their own native language.

I suppose the reason I even brought it up is because I have a tuttee who for memorizing words simply did every single page of a dictionary until he memorized them all. Over 50,000 words, and he still has to consult a dictionary often, and his vocabulary I would say is still maybe half that of a fairly intelligent native speaker Lately he's been really frustrated with that fact, and has been trying to come up with any way possible to push through that barrier as quickly as possible, but the thing is it just takes so, so much time.

At a university pace, within the first two years generally between 1,000-2,000 words are taught (I place emphasis on taught because only the students who are very serious about learning Japanese will study enough to keep all of those in memory). Within the next two years the pace usually doubles, with an additional 4,000-5000 words being taught. So that after four years, 6,000-7,000 words are generally taught.

I suppose the despair comes in when you realize that if 6,000-7,000 words takes on average four years of study, then around 8 years of constant study would be required for a vocabulary of 50,000, and nearly two decades of study for a vocabulary closer to that of a fairly intelligent native speaker.

I know this all sounds like doom and gloom, but of course it's not. The majority of people learning Japanese don't need to have a vocabulary on par with intelligent native speakers. Understanding the majority of mainstream media, having friendships, conversations, etc. in the language won't require such an obscene amount of words, many of which you may only encounter a single time within a year! (trying to purge the pessimism in the earlier paragraphs with some optimism )

Since I plan on becoming a Japanese teacher, this vocabulary barrier is something I really want to find a way to destroy, and maybe that's why I am posting my thoughts. I respect this community, and have gotten a lot of ideas for teaching from stalking the threads here *mwahaha*

Aijin Wrote:There was a discouragement thread 1?

I really, really don't mean to be discouraging! JLPT 1 is a great accomplishment for a foreigner, taking an insane amount of time, hard work, and sheer dedication. I think anyone who devotes themselves so intensely to something that they can achieve a goal like that is very remarkable! And I don't mean to say that the JLPT 1 is a joke or anything by any means, the kanji and grammar it covers is the most significant part of it I think.

But at the same time I think it's good to understand that the test is designed for foreigners, and to meet specific needs. I was just trying to express that in terms of vocabulary, it's a far way from fluency. I only meant to say that because I often see people reachings things like JLPT 1, and being frustrated with themselves that they still have so much difficulty in the language, have to use dictionaries constantly, etc. But at the same time I didn't mean to cause despair or anything!

In my opinion vocabulary is the hardest beast to tackle in learning Japanese as a second language. Ignoring the amount of immersion required to learn the feeling of different words and which situations each is used in to portray what image/tone/feeling, etc. the overwhelming quantity is what is akin to standing on the bottom of Mt. Everest and looking up for some people, I think.

The reason a lot of people become discouraged, I believe, is that it's simply so easy for people to not realize the overwhelming amount of words they know in their own native language.

I suppose the reason I even brought it up is because I have a tuttee who for memorizing words simply did every single page of a dictionary until he memorized them all. Over 50,000 words, and he still has to consult a dictionary often, and his vocabulary I would say is still maybe half that of a fairly intelligent native speaker Lately he's been really frustrated with that fact, and has been trying to come up with any way possible to push through that barrier as quickly as possible, but the thing is it just takes so, so much time.

At a university pace, within the first two years generally between 1,000-2,000 words are taught (I place emphasis on taught because only the students who are very serious about learning Japanese will study enough to keep all of those in memory). Within the next two years the pace usually doubles, with an additional 4,000-5000 words being taught. So that after four years, 6,000-7,000 words are generally taught.

I suppose the despair comes in when you realize that if 6,000-7,000 words takes on average four years of study, then around 8 years of constant study would be required for a vocabulary of 50,000, and nearly two decades of study for a vocabulary closer to that of a fairly intelligent native speaker.

I know this all sounds like doom and gloom, but of course it's not. The majority of people learning Japanese don't need to have a vocabulary on par with intelligent native speakers. Understanding the majority of mainstream media, having friendships, conversations, etc. in the language won't require such an obscene amount of words, many of which you may only encounter a single time within a year! (trying to purge the pessimism in the earlier paragraphs with some optimism )

Since I plan on becoming a Japanese teacher, this vocabulary barrier is something I really want to find a way to destroy, and maybe that's why I am posting my thoughts. I respect this community, and have gotten a lot of ideas for teaching from stalking the threads here *mwahaha*

Good read. Knowing vocab is pretty vital, I do agree 10,000 is no where near enough to be fluent completely let alone native level. I believe that it is possible, but one thing is that I know from friends of mine that are fluent in Japanese. They said, in order to become fluent you gotta dedicate the time to it(some most of the day learning Japanese,immersion,reading,studying,listening,writing. I remember I was all worried about JLPT level 1 test, now I don't really care much. It doesn't show much fluency, in the eyes of Japanese people. I'd rather have the ability to read a novel flawlessly without the need of a dictionary, that would require a high level ability in reading, that is intended for natives.

Even though you need to know a lot in a language, it all comes down to dedication. Numbers are helpful but if you don't give the time, don't expect to get far in the language.

Basically if I can match myself to a native in my same age-group. (20s+, student,working,etc,university,school). I'll consider myself fluent.

Of course there are multiple defiintions of "fluency". I differentiate the words, "fluent" and "native". Fluent is being able to use the language fluidly. At JLPT 1 I can see this being possible. Though native speakers spend their entire life learning their own language. I see words I don't know on a daily basis and I couldn't spell "February" until last year when somone pointed out my mispelling. Even though I'm native I am still unable to write words some of my Japanese friends are able to write. :\

BUT, even though I have an average vocabulary of 20,000 words I am able to communicate perfectly in English. (Aparently teens have an active vocabulary of 10,000 words) In a real conversation we repeat a selection of words many times over. At 10,000 words you may understand most of what you see on a daily basis but you probably wouldn't understand 8% of the words you'd see. The more you learn the less helpful it becomes. So not-native doesn't mean you suck at Japanese.
(Please take this with a big heaping protion of NaCl. )

Aijin Wrote:I suppose the reason I even brought it up is because I have a tuttee who for memorizing words simply did every single page of a dictionary until he memorized them all. Over 50,000 words, and he still has to consult a dictionary often, and his vocabulary I would say is still maybe half that of a fairly intelligent native speaker Lately he's been really frustrated with that fact, and has been trying to come up with any way possible to push through that barrier as quickly as possible, but the thing is it just takes so, so much time.

Alright, while reading this part something snapped in me Seriously. Your friend is lying, or he's looking for very specific materials, but not to read / understand them, but to find new words.... I just don't see possible in any way, that sy who learned a whole dictionary (which is in itself a bit...hm....let's say funny, or overwhelming, but I'm not questioning it) still has problems about reading and comprehension. When I was preparing for my exam in english, a few years ago, I learned 5000 words. Nothing more. And I haven't really preoccupied myself with engish that much before that (=almost no exposure,beside listening to rap songs occasionaly). And I was able to read original science-fiction novels by Isaac Asimov, and Arthur C. Clarke, ect. Yes, there were a lot of new words in them. And I even wrote them out for my list one by one....but still. I didn't even come close to interrupt my reading / comprehension. I just underlined the new words in the line, and went forward. I understood, and what more, enjoyed the stories. Now, you might say that novels provide only a low level reading material, and I can perfectly imagine that. I guess federal / state laws for example, or even the professional media has much more complicated sentences / words. But still, If I was able to do that with 5000 learned words (give or take 1500), I would really like to see your tutte's reading material / audio material, where he still finds new words, even with a complete dicitonary of 50.000 words in his head
Please, please, provide me some links, you got me excited!
I want to learn!!!
Ps.: A little bit of a perk: Who wants to be intelligent, anyway?? I want to be smart!!!!