Hello!

I just wanted to share my latest discovery - a really good Japanese textbook called "Elementary Japanese". I have Volume One of a two-volume set.

What I like about it is that it assumes you know hiragana and katakana very well, from the start, so I don't have to deal with my tendancy my eyes have of gravitating to romaji.

"Elementary Japanese" strikes a nice balance between the very cool grammar descriptions of Japanese the Spoken Language, with the kana/kanji usage I like in "Japanese for Everyone". I'm probabaly going to just shelve JSL for now. Man that romaji drives me NUTS! >_<

I plan to use "Elementary Japanese" in conjunction with "Japanese for Everyone" - going through each chapter one by one - in this manner: Chapter 1 in "Elementary Japanese" first, then Chapter 1 in "Japanese for Everyone"... and so on. I feel there is a lot of benefit in using these books concurrently - More Exercises! (I've got the Workbook and Kanji book for JfE as well.) I'll take detours into "Japanese in Mangaland" (though all the typos in JiM bother me) and "Japanese the Manga Way" when I need a manga-infused break from regular study. I've got the Mangajin books too, and I love those too!

In "Elementary Japanese" Romaji is only used in Chapter One. The lack of Romaji is very refreshing. It's also in HARDCOVER which is a bonus for me - more durable! The whole construction and layout of the book is very attractive to me.

Each section opens with a dialogue in "comic" form - which is cool, in my opinion! I was able to understand just about all of the dialogue/comic in the beginning of Chapter 2, which was a motivational boost.

There are also many indexes which leads me to believe this will be a great book for reference later on.

This book has very clear grammar information, and is nicely laid out. There are a lot of exercises as well - my only gripe is there are no answers - I was wondering if anyone knew if the answers were in the "Teacher's Guide".

I also like how the stories relate to college life, as opposed to business, as I am currently in college. I get so bored with the business dialogues.

I'm just curious if there are any other forum members who have discovered this series of books, and what your opinion of it is. Also, let me know if you completed the books (volumes one and two). Also, please let me know if the exercise answers are in the Teacher's Guide".

Thanks!

~Miaow~

I've thought that about several things, until I'd used them for a few weeks. I'll be very interested to hear what you think of it in 2 weeks or a month. That'll really tell the tale.

http://www.amazon.com/Elementary-Japanes...0804835047

Is this the book you're talking about? If they've used it at Berkley (I'm looking at the reviews for this information), then I can probably asked my professor for a review, as he taught there. But the book sounds good by the reviews.

As wccrawford said, let us know what you think 2-3 weeks down the line!

Don't most real Japanese textbooks start you off with kana right away? I know both Minna no Nihongo and Genki does.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:http://www.amazon.com/Elementary-Japanes...0804835047

Is this the book you're talking about? If they've used it at Berkley (I'm looking at the reviews for this information), then I can probably asked my professor for a review, as he taught there. But the book sounds good by the reviews.

As wccrawford said, let us know what you think 2-3 weeks down the line!

You mean UC Berkeley in Cali?
When I was there, they were using their own books.

Tobberoth, maybe that is the case now, but I dont think the kana-first method was so widespread until a few years ago. I had used a few "real" textbooks in the late 1990's and they were using romaji all the way through. One was even supposed to have been developed at Yale or Stanford.

All the 'real textbooks' I've bought have been romaji all the way through. Including the one "used by the US Government to train Diplomatic Personnel". I particularly hate that one because it uses that screw up romaji with 'ti' instead of 'chi' and 'tu' instead of 'tsu', etc.

I believe the book was written and published by a professor there. So it could be one and the same.

I used it when I was starting my studies. As far as the "cool" comic intro scenarios, they are as dry as most regular textbooks with no real character development or plotline interest. "Hey, what's your major?" and "That building over there is the library." Or something like that. At least it wasn't interesting 6 or so chapters in. The information is good and solid, but again, nothing significantly different from any other text. It does go at a pretty quick pace which I liked, but with an utter lack of real, contextual reading/listening practice it's not very good on its own. Unless those short comics can sustain you.

If you're not familiar with this particular text, it could be called "Japanese for Busy, I mean, College People". It's got basically the same format. Just a different vocabulary focus. It has: Intro dialogue (with [so-so] comics drawn), grammar explanation, exercises. In the first 2 chapters you're expected to master kana on your own. Then they start introducing kanji with little to no real help or explanation of the radicals or anything. You have a few boxes for writing practice and BAM you apparently know it. This text on its own is very output intensive which as we know is NOT how you acquire a language. Outputting language is simply a way of showing how much language you've acquired or a way to help make your output more fluent (whether it's correct output or not). And as such, the fact that there are no answers included at the back of the book makes it not very appropriate for self-study. Given that, I was also disappointed with it's function as a resource book. Though I don't have the book with me now, I remember feeling frustrated trying to find a grammar topic that I had studied and wanted to look at again.

The original post sounded like a straight advertisement. Textbooks always have faults that should be recognized and managed with supplemental resources.

if the book is the same they used at Cal, then I remember them being pretty decent

I'm sure the textbook is awesome, but it seems a bit suspicious that your first post is a gushing review of it. I would strongly recommend beginners stick to textbooks that have already been used by others on this forum. Don't waste your time on an unproven text, it is unlikely to be substantially better than any of the other beginners textbooks such as Genki, Japanese For Everyone, etc.

Regarding Japanese For Everyone, I think it is a great book. My only complaint is the font is too small ! The pace is good for someone like me who studied a little bit of Japanese before. I think if I was a complete beginner of average aptitude, Japanese for Everyone might overwhelm me with it's "busy" format. Other good points are relatively clear explanations and heaps of drills.

Concerning Romaji, as others have mentioned I think it was extremely common until the late 1980s for textbooks to use romaji extensively even at the relatively advanced level. For example the Japanese for Busy People series (which was for a long time the most popular text), was initially published only in romaji versions.

In truth I don't think romaji is that bad, obviously if you are a serious student there is no reason to keep using it. But for beginners it is a quick way of allowing them to transcribe Japanese. Regarding the system ta, ti, tu, .... etc. That is the system I saw taught in Japanese elementary schools. Yes surprising though it may seem, Japanese school children do learn romaji.

Tobberoth Wrote:Don't most real Japanese textbooks start you off with kana right away? I know both Minna no Nihongo and Genki does.

Genki gets rid of romaji at the third chapter... Though it is true that they also have kana suplimenting the romaji in chapters 1 & 2. Can't say about minna no nihongo though...

Ryuujin27 Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Don't most real Japanese textbooks start you off with kana right away? I know both Minna no Nihongo and Genki does.

Genki gets rid of romaji at the third chapter... Though it is true that they also have kana suplimenting the romaji in chapters 1 & 2. Can't say about minna no nihongo though...

Minna no Nihongo is pure Japanese, only the... supplemental grammar book has any English it in. Personally, I find it to be THE best basic textbook in Japanese. Also probably the most expensive if you want all of the books.

This is almost certainly spam. It reads like a professionally written advertisement. The user registered two weeks ago. Hmmm....
Why though?

bodhisamaya Wrote:This is almost certainly spam. It reads like a professionally written advertisement. The user registered two weeks ago. Hmmm....
Why though?

Well I guess that person works in marketing for the publisher or is connected with author, either way they thought they would track down a forum where lots of japanese learners congregate and try and drum up a few sales !

The same reason a lot of publishers write 5 star reviews on amazon. There are so many shills about it really makes you question everything you read and hear.

I would doubt that this dude from Illionis works with a publisher that is making books for UC Berkeley in California.


I am sure they sell enough books at high prices to poor college students, without the need to have to pay someone to make posts on forums on the off chance someone will buy it.


But anything is possible............

Zazen, I hope you're right, but of course, anyone could say they're from Illinois in this context. How do you know I'm not a dolphin trainer named Ned?

Maybe the text hasn't done as well as the publisher hoped. Amazon has the text at 37% off. That doesn't mean it's not a good book. It may be that professors aren't ready to adopt a new textbook since that means writing new lesson plans and buying new supplementary materials and not being able to offer cheap used textbooks to students.

Who'd wanna put themselves through the pain of using a textbook?

cameron_en Wrote:Who'd wanna put themselves through the pain of using a textbook?

That's an odd view of it. Personally I find it great. Instead of loarning boat loads of useless Japanese, you get a guide which tells you exactly what you're ready to learn and how important it is. Learn basic Japanese from random stuff you come upon and you'll won't be able to use it for ages. Go through a textbook once and you have a strong basis for learning.

Anyone who gets through Minna no Nihongo 1 and 2 should not only be good enough to pass JLPT3 easily, they will be able to go to Japan and have pretty much all forms of basic conversations, it includes words and dialogues used in everyday situations.

Tobberoth Wrote:

cameron_en Wrote:Who'd wanna put themselves through the pain of using a textbook?

Anyone who gets through Minna no Nihongo 1 and 2 should not only be good enough to pass JLPT3 easily, they will be able to go to Japan and have pretty much all forms of basic conversations, it includes words and dialogues used in everyday situations.

Hypocritically enough I have actually completed both textbooks for my university major. I added the sentences from the textbooks to Anki but I believe there are better sources than textbooks. The Minna No Nihongo package came to over $250 for books 1 & 2 which I think is bit rediculous, especially if you're paying for lessons on top of that.

cameron_en Wrote:Hypocritically enough I have actually completed both textbooks for my university major. I added the sentences from the textbooks to Anki but I believe there are better sources than textbooks. The Minna No Nihongo package came to over $250 for books 1 & 2 which I think is bit rediculous, especially if you're paying for lessons on top of that.

Of course it's expensive, then again, you only need the textbooks, not the whole set. Maybe it differs depending on location, but I found Minna no Nihongo insanely useful living in Japan.. pretty much every new chapter, I learned new things I could use right away. I seriously doubt there's a better source of good early Japanese. If you want to become conversational as fast as possible in Japan, I would totaly recommend it.

Tobberoth Wrote:

cameron_en Wrote:Who'd wanna put themselves through the pain of using a textbook?

That's an odd view of it. Personally I find it great. Instead of loarning boat loads of useless Japanese, you get a guide which tells you exactly what you're ready to learn and how important it is. Learn basic Japanese from random stuff you come upon and you'll won't be able to use it for ages. Go through a textbook once and you have a strong basis for learning.

Useless? What could be possibly useless about everyday used Japanese? I'd trust what a native speaker says over what a textbook says.

alyks Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:

cameron_en Wrote:Who'd wanna put themselves through the pain of using a textbook?

That's an odd view of it. Personally I find it great. Instead of loarning boat loads of useless Japanese, you get a guide which tells you exactly what you're ready to learn and how important it is. Learn basic Japanese from random stuff you come upon and you'll won't be able to use it for ages. Go through a textbook once and you have a strong basis for learning.

Useless? What could be possibly useless about everyday used Japanese? I'd trust what a native speaker says over what a textbook says.

How do you know that your source is everyday used Japanese? Almost everything in mangas isn't. Novels rarely contain conversational Japanese. News? Music? Minna no Nihongo was made by Japanese teachers to teach Japanese they know is used, and it worked great as my experience clearly shows.

If you live in Japan like I did, you quickly learn that while it's cool to be able to discuss how the moon moves around the earth, it's useless. It won't come up in a normal conversation. It's more important to learn stuff you need to say every day. One can make the case that "I'm not living in japan, it doesn't matter what kind of Japanese I learn" and that might be true... but it's always equally laughable when someone who learned Japanese from anime and manga comes to talk to Japanese people and sound like they come from space or something, using the wrong words for the situations at hand.

This last argument of yours is a strawman.
It might be equaly laughable to hear someone who learned from minna no nihongo and says watashi in front of every sentence.

I understand your idea is completely valid, but you could just point out that there is more japananese to learn than the japanese from mangas and anime.

So you solution is because we foreigners can possibly find or understand real Japanese, we have to stick to the dumbed down textbooks?

I totally reject that nonsense.

mentat_kgs Wrote:This last argument of yours is a strawman.
It might be equaly laughable to hear someone who learned from minna no nihongo and says watashi in front of every sentence.

I understand your idea is completely valid, but you could just point out that there is more japananese to learn than the japanese from mangas and anime.

You make it sound as if Minna no Nihongo is dumbed down Japanese. It isn't. Putting "watashi" in front of everything is something you learn from western resources, not textbooks made by Japanese companies.

The difference between resources you commonly find online and minna no nihongo:
Resources like the ones I mentioned.. manga, movies, music, news... those are all in a specific context. Day to day conversations rarely are in the same sense. Minna no Nihongo takes standard Japanese day to day conversations such as getting help if you forgot a bag on the train, where to find a certain product in a store or how to call another company to ask about a delivery to your own. The conversations are perfectly natural Japanese, they were written by natives just like the resources alkys is talking about. Sure, you could be watching a manga and in some situation, a girl forgets something on the train. So you learn from that exposure how Japanese can ask about it etc... too bad the manga took place in the future so they used odd slang. Too bad the novel didn't actually print out the actual conversation. Too bad the music used poetry. You see my point?

Minna no Nihongo is dialogs picked because of their usefulness in day to day Japanese, most of the "real" resources aren't. Minna no Nihongo was made with lack of ability in mind and explains stuff which might be unclear. Standard resources do not, you're supposed to already know Japanese when you use them.