Ok, before you answer I DON't need the following info:

1. Hesigi and AJATT recommend not to do it.
2. Better to go Kanji to on-yomi.
3. Better to just start learning compunds, Japanese meanings, etc.

I know all that and I have read all about it. I am interested in people who have tried kanji to keyword. If you could let me know...

1. How far along with RTK were you before you started Kanji to Keyword.
2. How long you've did Kanji to keyword (how many weeks or months, etc? )
3. Your experience with it (has it helped?)

I am over a year done with RTK, have gone thru KO2001, can reconize plenty of compunds, readings, and have a good sense usually of the general japanese meaning of a compunds. I am just very interested in being able to see a kanji and have an english keyword pop up in my head.

Please dont tell me how you think its a waste of time (unless you have tired it and it was).
Thanks

I've been done for a couple months or so and keywords are starting to become more and more clear.

I have started doing this though; maybe it'll help:

After you write out a row of kanji from your reviews (doing your normal keyword > kanji), look at them again and see if you can recall each keyword. If you can't then, obivously, go look it up.

Consciously making an effort to recall the keywords helps tremendously, and doing it this way, you aren't forced to spend a bunch of your time learning kanji to keyword.

As much as Heisig does make mistakes naming his keywords, ultimately it does help. When looking at a compound, you can at least get an idea of what the word means, and when placed into context, you can take a pretty educated guess at the meaning. Take for example, I just read this headline this morning:

火山噴火で泥流発生、住民６人が死亡　コロンビア

This is the first time I've ever seen 噴 out "in the wild", but I knew Heisig's keyword meant erupt, which made perfect sense within this context.

And when I die, I hope it's because of a volcano erupting its lava all over my body. How badass of a death is that?

I have 2 separate stacks in my SRS for keyword->kanji and kanji->keyword. Actually, I do this for vocabulary, too (kanji->reading/meaning and reading->kanji/meaning). The reason I do this is:
1) although I think going keyword -> kanji is far more important, and goes a long way to making kanji recognition rub off on you automatically, I find it's not perfect. When I only had a keyword-kanji stack, I would often still have trouble recognizing kanji when I saw them in the wild -- I'd wonder whether I'd learned it or not, and then look it up and find that it was one I could write from keyword without thinking. I find the kanji-keyword connection gets locked into your brain pretty easily; the kanji-keyword stack is just a little nudge to get it done.
2) some kanji are much harder to remember going one way, than going the other way. Well, this is true for vocabulary in general. So that's the reason for having separate stacks (rather than just doing a "reverse quiz" with the same cards like some SRSs allow); the scheduling is going to be different in each direction.
Anyway, it's possible that it's more efficient to do keyword->kanji only, and just let the kanji->keyword associations work themselves out over time, but doing it both ways works for me. Kanji->keyword is, of course, much easier to remember than keyword->kanji, so that review stack is smaller.
I don't think anyone would recommend doing *only* kanji->keyword, though.

some good points there.

You know, the kanji to keyword review function is already built into the RTK website with the "Reading" page. Plug in whatever Japanese text you want, and check your keyword memory by moving your mouse over highlighted characters. It might be more fun than making a special flashcard deck.

Yes-I am aware of thoose and I am using ANKI now.

[ファブリス]

I have done it.

When I review compounds in Trinity for example, I nearly always want to remember the meaning of the characters. When I don't remember the "concept" behind one of the characters I refresh my memory there and then. Kanji to keyword review! I still refresh my memory with english keywords, but I can sort of "twist" the meaning in my mind to acknowledge the real usage of the character.

I just don't see the point of doing this separately into a SRS. Why waste time doing more reviews when you can optimally fit this review time in the vocabulary learning process?

ファブリス Wrote:I have done it.

When I review compounds in Trinity for example, I nearly always want to remember the meaning of the characters. When I don't remember the "concept" behind one of the characters I refresh my memory there and then.

So, you mean, you make yourself recall the English keyword then and there? what do you do if you dont recall the keyword?

or maybe your scoll over it? I dont use trinty so I dont know if it has this feature.
But, I have been BeGGING for this feature in ANKI for 6 months now, I would think it would be very very helpful!

I started learning kanji on a game called Slime Forest Adventure. The entire thing was Kanji-to-keyword. It was actually working very, very well up until around 1000 kanji, when the stories got to be horrifically bad and I started forgetting everything too often. At around 1350, I switched to RTK.

So all the arguments that Kanji-to-keyword are actually wrong. It does work.

However... You don't learn to write the kanji with that method. (That was my secondary reason for switching.) It also doesn't lock them in as well and you'll need to study more.

As for going from RTK to kanji-to-keyword, I don't know. It does seem like a waste of time, to me. If you're doing vocab as Fabrice said, you're learning to recognize the kanji in context, which is most important. Between iKnow.co.jp and ReadTheKanji.com, I get enough vocab practice that kanji are easy. (For the ones I've studied, that is.)

I just don't really see the point. Why waste time learning an english keyword from a kanji when you can spend that time learning japanese compounds instead? It gives you meaning to the kanji while expanding your japanese vocabulary at the same time.

[ファブリス]

@zazen666 : Yes I try to recall the exact english keyword. I suppose it's logical with new compounds I am effectively trying to hint myself at what the word was. Until I have reading or listening exposure to the vocabulary item, the character meanings help me reconnect to the reading and to the meaning of the compound/word.

Now I could do with remembering vaguely the meaning of the character, but I find I like to recall the exact keywords as it makes for a simple mnemonic (such as "leg tracks = footprints"). I don't implicitly make those, I just notice I remember sometime the vocabulary meaning from a combination of english keywords. That is, when I read in my mind the exact keywords as I had tried to recall them on previous reviews, then I remember the actual word meaning.

So yes, I am reviewing the exact english keywords in a sense.

What do I do if I don't recall the keyword? I simply refresh my memory by checking the keyword. You could say it is not optimal but I feel using a SRS for this sole purpose is overkill. As Tobberoth pointed out, you get the context of the word at that moment to help you remember the character meaning and see a actual usage of it.

I've tried Kanji to Concept. It does work, but it's annoying if you do it late in your studies. If you're starting out in Anki or something, it's not too bad. Remember to do both, not just kanji to keyword.

Plus, it's not the same as Keyword to Kanji. With that, you're likely writing out the kanji (either with pen or finger) so that takes time. Looking at the kanji and thinking of the concept (by concept, don't mark it wrong if you don't know the keyword or think of a synonym instead) can be done very quickly.

So yeah, if you don't get hung up on remembering the exact keyword, Kanji to Concept works ok. Use something like KanjiGold as it Kanji and gives 5 concepts to choose the answer.

ファブリス Wrote:.......the character meanings help me reconnect to the reading and to the meaning of the compound/word.

Now I could do with remembering vaguely the meaning of the character, but I find I like to recall the exact keywords as it makes for a simple mnemonic (such as "leg tracks = footprints"). ......

Me too.


SRS review maybe overkill, and I have though the same, but I also think

1. It takes me about 10second to answer a card in anki, less if its simply one kanji, word, etc. If its kanji to keyword, I either know it or not. Since most are already familar, I think they will quickly get spaced further back using an SRS, hopefully equaling not many more reviews.
2.Memory books do mention "overlearning" difficult material. I think going Kanji->keyword after having done the reverse for so long qualifies. At the very least, it is hitting it from another direction.

Nukemarine Wrote:I've tried Kanji to Concept. It does work, but it's annoying if you do it late in your studies. If you're starting out in Anki or something, it's not too bad.

Plus, it's not the same as Keyword to Kanji. With that, you're likely writing out the kanji (either with pen or finger) so that takes time. Looking at the kanji and thinking of the concept (by concept, don't mark it wrong if you don't know the keyword or think of a synonym instead) can be done very quickly.

So yeah, if you don't get hung up on remembering the exact keyword, Kanji to Concept works ok. Use something like KanjiGold as it Kanji and gives 5 concepts to choose the answer.

If I were just starting out, I would think it is not a good idea to do kanji to keyword, but rather focus on learning the writing by following hesigi's adivce and going keyword to kanji.

However, now that its beena year, the keywords are more or less in my head. Going from kanji to a simple, known english keywords I think is easier than going from kanji to a new onyomi.

A little off topic, but does anyone want to make a plug in for anki that will allow one to scroll over the kanji and get the RTK keyword? If so, I would probably do that rather than review kanji to keyword.(I've wined a million times on the anki forum, and even to daimen, but as of yet no plug in

I edited my comment, but others already quoted.

Anyway, if you do Kanji to concept, make sure you're doing Keyword to Kanji. When you get to doing Onyomi, say via the Movie Method, it's cool to do Kanji to Onyomi AND concept.

If you only do Kanji to keyword, it's not going to work. You'll have the same problems as natives that can't think of a kanji even when they hear the word, but immediately know it when they see it.

wccrawford Wrote:I started learning kanji on a game called Slime Forest Adventure. The entire thing was Kanji-to-keyword. It was actually working very, very well up until around 1000 kanji, when the stories got to be horrifically bad and I started forgetting everything too often. At around 1350, I switched to RTK.

I actually did the opposite. RTK til 1600~ and then I played SFA all the way through(kanji wise, not plot wise). Since the battles are so fast paced, I could usually come up with my own stories very quickly, in a couple seconds. Man, I still miss learning stuff that fast... after I got use to the game, I did 100-200 kanji a day. I wish I had a system like that to learn vocab.

I haven't tried this, but I think if your Japanese is already at an intermediate or higher level, the best strategy would be to do Heisig with keyword to kanji like normal, review for 1-2 months, and then switch to doing kanji -> keyword.

My opinion is that the more you progress in Japanese, the less important going from keyword -> kanji becomes. Ultimately, I think it would be best to become able to explain the meaning of kanji using Japanese vocabulary. This doesn't mean redoing Heisig with Japanese keywords, but rather just a gradual replacement over time.

zazen666 Wrote:A little off topic, but does anyone want to make a plug in for anki that will allow one to scroll over the kanji and get the RTK keyword? If so, I would probably do that rather than review kanji to keyword.(I've wined a million times on the anki forum, and even to daimen, but as of yet no plug in

Such a plugin exists and I have been using it for months. It's called Kanji Info. I don't know if it comes with a heisig keywords list or if I had to add it myself though.

I wouldn't try it, but yeah.
Go ahead.

Zarxrax Wrote:

zazen666 Wrote:A little off topic, but does anyone want to make a plug in for anki that will allow one to scroll over the kanji and get the RTK keyword? If so, I would probably do that rather than review kanji to keyword.(I've wined a million times on the anki forum, and even to daimen, but as of yet no plug in

Such a plugin exists and I have been using it for months. It's called Kanji Info. I don't know if it comes with a heisig keywords list or if I had to add it myself though.

That is the plug in which creates a large kanji beaneth your sentence, that you can scroll over, right? I tried that out but didnt like it. plus, if you have three or more kanji in your sentence, it makes the screen very cluttered, dont you think?

I would rather have something that let you scroll over exsiting text, like this site, or similar to using rikai-chan, but only with hesigi data.

sutebun Wrote:I haven't tried this, but I think if your Japanese is already at an intermediate or higher level, the best strategy would be to do Heisig with keyword to kanji like normal, review for 1-2 months, and then switch to doing kanji -> keyword.

My opinion is that the more you progress in Japanese, the less important going from keyword -> kanji becomes. Ultimately, I think it would be best to become able to explain the meaning of kanji using Japanese vocabulary. This doesn't mean redoing Heisig with Japanese keywords, but rather just a gradual replacement over time.

I agree. I have felt like the need to go form keyword to kanji has been less and less important. Now what I am trying is just having the mnemonic along with the keyword on the question side of the card, and making sure I can write the kanji out. I dont feel the need to force myself to recall the story perfectly anymore.

I'm only a month done with Heisig. Towards the end of RtK, I started reading normal adult books. In the case of new compounds, I made myself recall the keyword before looking up the compound, etc. When I'm doing sentences, I'll occasionally make myself recall the keywords of kanji in compounds that were forgotten or hard to recall. I feel like doing this (over and over if I have to, every time it comes up and I struggle with it) strengthens the connections between the Japanese word and the written form.

I haven't seen a need or felt a desire to strictly study kanji to keyword to make the English keywords pop in my mind more quickly. If it's your desire to have such an ability as you stated, then studying kanji that way sounds like a good idea.

For me I find it valuable to develop a semantic/idea cloud over time through exposure to the kanji in different compounds/situations. And I think it's best if this cloud were in Japanese. The English keyword of course is the base for this cloud but for some high frequency kanji, it's already been replaced through reading over the past couple of months by a Japanese word and an expanding semantic/idea cloud. 発 for instance doesn't make me think of the English "discharge' anymore. This feeling of 'pushing/going out' appears when I see the kanji and words like shuppatsu/hatsuon come immediately to mind if it appears in a compound I'm not familiar with. This can help give the new compound a certain feel and possibly help me guess the meaning.

Though I'm sure you've already considered this problem, there is the matter of single kanji having widely divergent meanings in terms of possible English keywords. One I've come across recently is 治. The RtK keyword as you know is 'reign'. But the fact is the only word I've seen it in is 治る which would more closely translate to "recover". I'd rather just have two clouds in Japanese rather than try to split and have two keywords, choose one keyword over another, or bend the keyword's meaning to match the incongruous usage. When seen in a context, one cloud or the other will be primed by the surrounding sentences so that I won't need to go to a keyword to decode the word. Much in the same way, we can look at "bear" out of context and probably picture the animal because that usage is perhaps more common. But if somewhere in the sentence your eye catches the word "burden" your mind easily adjusts to the other meaning.

This is my take. Sorry, I know you were asking for responses drawn from more experience. Perhaps, those who have been finished longer can point out problems or pitfalls with what I said and give more ideas on what you've suggested. I'm interested since I've just finished with the book and am wondering which direction to go. Studying for the JLPT 2 test has been driving my studies these past few months, but when it's done in two weeks, I'm not sure how I will manage things.

Well, there's always JLPT1