This started on itil and it was suggested I propose this here. I decided I'd bite and see what people think.

So anyway. It was suggested by a Heisig follower that the method is fun and easy, not taxing or stressful.

I'm a Heisig Book 1 graduate and countered that it is taxing and stressful. (This isn't to say I didn't enjoy the method nor that I don't think it's useful, effective or efficient.)

I feel that something that takes mental effort and daily maintenance is work. Work by definition is taxing. Whether this work is spread over 3 weeks like some people have done or 1 year like I did, it is mentally taxing. This work according to my fellow debater must be done daily in order to not get behind and risk losing or confusing stories/kanji. If you take a break you will have a backlog of cards to review and possibly kanji to recreate or re-visualize the pictures for. That has some amount of stress assuming you are living a normal life with other responsibilities that may keep you from sticking to a strict daily review schedule. Even if you are able to maintain a daily routine, knowing that you must do so provides some amount of stress.

If this isn't evidence, then perhaps the people (likely a majority, dare I guess?) who have had to "take a break" or quit outright can serve as examples of the method requiring work and being stressful.

I understand that a daily review session and story creation session are not in themselves inherently taxing or stressful. Some days were really fun and exciting. But the method as a whole requires work and can cause stress.

What do you think?

This isn't just a vain dispute. I think this applies to how people spread the word about Heisig's method. Should people extol it's ease and speed with no caveats? I feel that the time and mental commitments must be highlighted. If people hear how great the method is, it's easy, it's fun, it's fast, then they will get the idea that it doesn't take work and will not cause them stress. But that's not true. You must spend time every day working on it. You must devote your whole mind to it. You must not slack on reviews. You must not get behind. You must realize that 2000 is a really big number. In this world of billions and trillions it's easy to think 2000 is small and manageable. But it's f-ing big when you have 2000 symbols to remember-many that look similar, many that have similar meanings. If it's so easy and fun why don't more people do it, why don't more people finish it after starting, and why didn't they finish yesterday? Just some thoughts.

Of course it's taxing, it's an undertaking. Not only do you have to review every day, you also have to add new cards to keep progressing and still focus as much as possible on making good stories. You commit to this, you know you will have to continue working on it every day for months to succeed, that alone is stressing.

As if the commitment isn't enough, it becomes more taxing as you go. Add 10 cards a day and after 3 days, you will have to review 10 cards every day. wait 7 more days and you have to review 20 cards each day. Give it another 30 days or so and you'll have 30 cards to review every day... it just keeps increasing.

I found it stressful, and generally caution people that while I think it's worthwhile it's a huge commitment upfront that they need to be prepared for.
On the flipside, I only started learning Japanese because something made it seem easy, fun, and painless. Filthy liars. But here I am, still doing it, so maybe not focusing on the arduousness isn't such a bad idea

mattyjaddy Wrote:If it's so easy and fun why don't more people do it

I noticed you always tend to group "easy" and "fun" together. There are many other activities that are fun, but not easy. I really enjoy rock climbing, but it certainly isn't easy.
More people don't do it because a)they aren't aware of the method, b)don't believe in the method, or c)are too lazy to do it.

Quote:why don't more people finish it after starting, and why didn't they finish yesterday?

Memorizing 2000 of anything is a daunting task, no matter how simplified it is. The same people that don't finish, or finish late, are the same ones that don't stick to any task. People's study habits extend well beyond Heisig.

While stressful and taxing for the reasons previously mentioned, RtK strikes me as possibly the least stressful and taxing method for getting the reading/writing/general meaning of these ~2,000 kanji down. That helps, psychologically, since I can say to myself if it gets tough that it could be a lot tougher using other methods.

But it's rewarding and interesting in its own right, as well. I'm still only in the 800s, but looking at my practice pad with pages and pages of written kanji, I definitely have a sense of accomplishment. It's rewarding to already be moving a lot of kanji into my vocab SRS, replacing words previously tested in kana with their kanji readings.

It's like running. I trained and ran my first marathon this year. It was stressful and taxing, time-consuming and physically draining to prepare for, but that didn't stop it from being rewarding, at times fun, and giving me a great sense of accomplishment. This far into RtK, and with that marathon under my belt, the rest of RtK feels completely doable, it's just a matter of doing it.

With summer/fall work travel, I ended up taking 5 separate 1-week breaks, each of which probably took another full week with no or little new kanji added, so that I could beat down the review and study pile. So yeah, lots of time off. I used to get stressed reading about people's 30+ kanji a day routines. Now I don't. I'll get there, and I'll do my best to enjoy the ride. I'm on track for a 1-year finish date, which I'm not thrilled about but means I'll actually finish, as opposed to allowing myself to get in over my head and quitting.

Generally, I think people without a lot of self-discipline for long-term tasks will tend to fall away. Unfortunately, that's a lot of people, it seems. RtK will make some casual folk question whether learning Japanese is a good idea or not for them. That's good. For the rest, RtK is just another mile in a long marathon.

plumage Wrote:While stressful and taxing for the reasons previously mentioned, RtK strikes me as possibly the least stressful and taxing method for getting the reading/writing/general meaning of these ~2,000 kanji down.

You don't learn readings though. (Unless you're including RtK2 and 3)

I found Heisig to be more of a break from normal study than anything else. It wasn't taxing to me.. at all.

CaLeDee Wrote:I found Heisig to be more of a break from normal study than anything else. It wasn't taxing to me.. at all.

Aren't you still in the middle of it though? As I said in my post, it gets worse all the time since the amount of reviews you have to do every day keeps increasing.

Tobberoth Wrote:

CaLeDee Wrote:I found Heisig to be more of a break from normal study than anything else. It wasn't taxing to me.. at all.

Aren't you still in the middle of it though? As I said in my post, it gets worse all the time since the amount of reviews you have to do every day keeps increasing.

Well I am currently getting under 100 reviews scheduled per day, it used to be 300+ then it dropped to almost 50. Whatever it is, I do it either at night or when I wake up. I don't really think of it as taxing, it's nice to practice writing kanji sometimes.

[ファブリス]

Demanding perhaps, but stress is always in your hands. It's what you do with it. The word "frustrating" would have come to my mind much sooner than "stressful". Trying to force your imagination to come up with a good story can be frustrating. The mind is a tricky thing, it works best when relaxed and you're not pushing it. As for stress, actually I have said it before, but the daily amount of concentration (I did a lot of closed eyes visualization in the second half of the book), brought me a very clear and noticable feeling of quiet in my thoughts and "centeredness" at the time. Doing RtK also helps you build some self discipline and self motivation skills.

mattyjaddy Wrote:I feel that the time and mental commitments must be highlighted.

It's a self-study method so that already implies that it's going to require a little organisation and commitment and self-discipline. You might even say it's downright obvious that nothing comes for free. That said, I believe it IS easy and fun for some people. Like I said the mind is a tricky thing. For some people I can easily believe that they go through the book without resistance. The more you believe it's going to be hard and resist the work of concentration or imagination required by the mnemonic system, the harder and stressful it will be.

It took me 6 months with a break as well. Doing a break does not necessarily imply that the method is stressful. Anything that you commit yourself to on a long period of time is going to exhaust you at some point. Taking a breather is a good thing. So I would have to disagree with the person that says to not take a break.

Tobberoth Wrote:

CaLeDee Wrote:I found Heisig to be more of a break from normal study than anything else. It wasn't taxing to me.. at all.

Aren't you still in the middle of it though? As I said in my post, it gets worse all the time since the amount of reviews you have to do every day keeps increasing.

You can pace yourself on reviews. I started doing 50 a day. Eventually they went down to 0.

Fore me RTk only became taxing when I went from learning 10-25 a day to learning 40 or more. The reviews are easy. It's the initial cramming of info that gets to you.

If it is stressful or taxing, quit. Do what you love and nothing will ever be work.

I find that I will be studying and four hours will pass without my being aware of it. It is meditative. The power of imagination is being awoken. A mental paintbrush for our latent artistic side.

I chat online with friends in Japan and practice my newly discovered characters with them while I am on Kanjikoohii creating stories.

I don't find this to be stressful or taxing. Time-consuming, yes... Not-easy, yes... But not stressful.

I couldn't afford to add any extra stress to my life, and I added Japanese and I'm am -less- stressed now.

But then, I don't let it run my life. All my hobbies fit in around each other. When I tire of one, I move to another. Japanese is the only one that I have to do daily, but even then, I can just do the minimal reviews and be done for the day.

Finishing RtK for the first time was really hard. Stressful at times when due reviews would start to accumulate. Adding new kanji was the fun part though.

Now I stopped doing reviews for too long so I'm going through the whole book again but it's much easier and even if the number of daily reviews is steadily increasing there isn't as much pressure as the first time. Still I want to finish the second pass before another round of reviews starts and increases the daily workload so there is some stress involved I guess

The method itself isn't really all that "hard" or "taxing" as long as I don't have to force all my studies together in one big lump....the true difficulty of this method is the dedication it requires for me to sit down and do it EVERY single day no matter what other temptations are around me (friends wanting me to go out, etc). It's been a wonderful self discipline test for myself to know that I actually have the willpower to not let up even one single day after 3 months.

When we succeed in mastering a new skill, one that requires work to master, are we having fun?

Conversely, when we try to pick up a new skill, but fail--whether it be through poor instruction, a misunderstanding of what the skill actually entails, physical incapacity, or unwillingness to do the work it takes--are we having fun?

In general, I would say yes to the first question, and no to the second. Work vs. fun, as samesong points out, is a false dichotomy--they are not mutually exclusive. For me, doing my reviews is a challenge, but an enjoyable one. Creating stories ditto.

(And I will add that my first try at RTK was a failure, because I didn't really understand the "imaginative memory" technique and because I had no regimen for reviewing the ones I'd learned. This time around, although I'm going slower than most here, I actually am enjoying "the method." It's not the tools that cause stress, it's [not] knowing how to use them.)

My guess is that the number of people (proportionally) who "drop out" of RTK is the same or maybe even lower than the number who drop out of, say, martial arts, or learning to play the guitar, or scuba diving. They all take commitment and practice. But I don't think stressful/"not fun" is the only factor, or even a major factor, in the dropouts. Just my opinion.

You are asking a question like is the glass half empty or half full...

I suggest you take a step back: since when is "acquiring a language" easy?

You have completed RtK1 - the amount of effort you have exerted is minuscule compared to the millions of Japanese students and billions of Chinese students who study their Kanji and Hanzi by rote.

Your SRS reviews should be down to a very short time per day. If you are still taking a taxing amount of time to review, something is wrong with your SRS spacing or you are failing too many cards (not memorizing correctly).

kazelee Wrote:Fore me RTk only became taxing when I went from learning 10-25 a day to learning 40 or more. The reviews are easy. It's the initial cramming of info that gets to you.

WARNING: unlike some who try to blaze through RtK in 3 weeks with large fail percentages, I remember Kazelee posting her goal of getting 100% on her reviews. This means she spends more time upfront to get it right, so the overall number of fails is lower. Going at a slower rate and getting most of them right also means you are less likely to be hit with a large review day.

YMMV, but Kazelee makes a good point: slow and steady may be less stressful for some people (relatively slower: 20 a day is still 20 more than the number of RtK3 Kanji that I am adding these days). Kazelee, how big is your typical review pile, BTW? Have you finished RtK or how far along are you?

Perhaps it was taxing for mattyjaddy because you pushed really hard at some point, and you are getting big review piles now? But even if this were true, eventually, the average daily review will become smaller, assuming that you are getting most of them correct. You may always have "lumpiness" in your decks, though, if you sometimes went slow and sometimes went fast.

Sorry I haven't read all the replies. But you'll find it varies from person to person. For me...

fun -- yes, very enjoyable when I did it as part of a group

easy -- no way, we were often stumped, still am

taxing -- definitely

stressful -- no, not really, but we did it slowly (over a couple of years)

kfmfe04 Wrote:I suggest you take a step back: since when is "acquiring a language" easy?

When you're an infant?

Perhaps it's only cause I'm averaging 19 a day, but I don't find RTK taxing at all. It's not entirely difficult, but not exactly a walk in the park either.

It's definitely fun! I sometimes can't stop doing my 字!

It's slightly stressful, but only when I have to balance it with other work.

Personally, I've never thought any of this to be difficult. Making a story is easy and in those few instances when you can't, there's good stories here on the site. Revieweing isn't hard either, all you have to do is remember. This method isn't taxing because of difficulty but because of effort. I spend almost an hour every day on this, not because it's difficult but because it simply sucks time and frankly, isn't very fun. It has become a habit, it's just your new daily kanji. I often feel "Gah, have I only added 10? I need to add 10 more ".

Some might say "If you don't think it's fun, stop." But I can't do that. I don't do this method for fun, I do it because I need the benefit it gives. I need to be able to write kanji, and I can't afford to stop just because I have other things I'd rather do. I guess that adds to the stressfulness as well, I want to get done fast so I don't have to do it anymore, but if I don't do enough each day, it won't get done by the goal I set.

kfmfe04 Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:Fore me RTk only became taxing when I went from learning 10-25 a day to learning 40 or more. The reviews are easy. It's the initial cramming of info that gets to you.

WARNING: unlike some who try to blaze through RtK in 3 weeks with large fail percentages, I remember Kazelee posting her goal of getting 100% on her reviews. This means she spends more time upfront to get it right, so the overall number of fails is lower. Going at a slower rate and getting most of them right also means you are less likely to be hit with a large review day.

YMMV, but Kazelee makes a good point: slow and steady may be less stressful for some people (relatively slower: 20 a day is still 20 more than the number of RtK3 Kanji that I am adding these days). Kazelee, how big is your typical review pile, BTW? Have you finished RtK or how far along are you?

Perhaps it was taxing for mattyjaddy because you pushed really hard at some point, and you are getting big review piles now? But even if this were true, eventually, the average daily review will become smaller, assuming that you are getting most of them correct. You may always have "lumpiness" in your decks, though, if you sometimes went slow and sometimes went fast.

Alright...

I'm about to blow your mind.

Get ready for the entire image you have of me to be shattered.

Here it goes.

I have a penis. LOL. And I think you give me too much credit with 100%.

At first I was trying to clear all my cards out in a single review. That was... inconvenient for me, so I started to do 50 a day. The reviews piled up for a while. Then, once I finally cleared the deck, I started getting 50 or less as most of the cards were young.

I have to admit, I stopped reviewing once I got 1991 mature cards (about a week or two ago). Not a good idea, I know. The reason being... I was attempting to go through RTK again with Kun-yomi. Now this is what I would call taxing. Attempting to blindly remember these readings was painful (literally), so I started just learning through sentences.

Currently I'm using iknow; doing 90 sentences per day spread through three lessons. I shadow 4 stories by Soseki, every other day. I listen and read silently various others stories. I do scriptorium, though not on a consistent basis. In between all this I watch dramas and anime. I don't do 24/7 input. It's more like 10-16/7. If I have any problems then I'll put them in Anki.

I know this is not as much as some others here, but if I do any more, my inner perfectionist will kick in (because it becomes work). Then I'll probably burn out. Burn out is not really the badge of honour it's made out to be, trust me.

playadom Wrote:

kfmfe04 Wrote:I suggest you take a step back: since when is "acquiring a language" easy?

When you're an infant?

From what I understand, it's not easy. It's very confusing. We just adapt.

Oops - sorry about that.

Thanks for your detailed description of how you study though - very interesting.

BTW, I have actually found that kunyomi is actually more of a PITA than onyomi. Many onyomi you can learn from compounds, but OTOH, I cannot guess most kunyomi correctly... so I have skipped RTK2 and just went on to learn vocabulary through readings, but somewhat haphazardly.

Back to Heisig though - it's probably important to remind yourself that it is only a small (but vital) part of learning Japanese. You have to review Heisig almost automatically, or there is not enough room for studying other parts.

These days, I have been focusing on grammar and reading.

These memory aids make language learning more enjoyable, i think. It becomes more like a game.

kfmfe04 Wrote:Oops - sorry about that.

NP.

I just saw the opportunity for a potential joke and had to leap.

for me its taxing since i started at the end of 2005 when this site was just functional and i am only at 1431.
i did take large brakes, and relearning is not very rewarding if you think you could have finished long ago, on the other hand relearning went 5 times as faster then the first run.
i keep comming back becouse i realize this method is the fastest way to learn the kanji after all

right now i am making good progress and it feels good to see 900 expired and 400 failed cards reduced to 300 failed cards and having add almost 100 new cards.

i gues im hard to motivate myself to die hard study, the good thing is that i am persistent.
man i probaly the only person who is at this site for almost 3 years and still did not finish it yet.