thermal Wrote:I don't think it is always true that は equates to "the fish". は can be used to referrence an old topic, but it can also be used comparitively or to introduce a new topic, in which case it sometimes referes to something both parties know, but it sometimes doesn't.

魚は好きだけど、馬は好きじゃない。- Well, as for fish, I like them. When it comes to horses though, I don't.

ビールは体によくないよ。- Hey as for beer, it's bad for you.

Actually, Romance languages like Spanish do use -- in fact, require -- the definite article for those sentences:

Pues, me gustan los peces, pero no los caballos.
Oye, la cerveza no es saludable.

I suppose this shows just how arbitrary articles can be. Anyway, in this case, we're not necessarily talking about specific fish, horses, or beer, but the general topic is still known to both parties.

Tobberoth Wrote:Thermal got here before me and is completely right, は doesn't really imply "the" any more than が does. For example: 魚はこれを食べる - As for fishes, they eat this. You can be speaking of any one fish, this fish, those fishes or any fishes, it really isn't implied.

I think this is kind of missing my point, which I admit may not have been very well stated. I was only contrasting "the fish" with "a fish". I can't think of a situation where "a fish" would be translated as 魚は, but 魚は isn't always translated "the fish".

- Kef

furrykef Wrote:I can't think of a situation where "a fish" would be translated as 魚は, but 魚は isn't always translated "the fish".

"A fish is an animal living in water."
魚は水に住んでいる動物だ。"

Argh, I knew somebody was going to come up with a counterexample. But of course the same sentence could be read "Fish are animals that living in water" without changing the meaning, and then it's obvious that は is the right choice because that sentence has the same form as the sentences that thermal wrote.

By the way, I realize my little "rule" here has the same caveat as the one I explained for "は is usually used for negative sentences" (i.e., there's a broader, more general underlying rule that should be learned instead of a rule for a particular case); I mentioned it mostly because 1) it helps one realize that the は/が distinction isn't as totally different as one might think, and 2) everybody had translated 魚が as "the fish", omitting the possibility that it could be "a fish", and I thought the possibility needed to be pointed out.

By the way, I think perhaps one of the best ways to really understand the difference between は and が is to study the way は is used with other particles. If you can understand は vs. を, では vs. で, and には vs. に, then you get a better feel of what it is that は actually does.

- Kef

furrykef Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:魚が食べている。
魚は食べている。

Since nobody else mentioned this, I figured I'd point out that the first one can mean "a fish is eating" rather than "the fish is eating". But the second sentence must be "the fish..." because, since it's the topic, the listener is already familiar with the fish in question.

Actually, that's what I was saying here:

Quote:It can also be said to bring up a new topic. Suddenly you want to talk about a fish. The difference in "A fish, which I am just now bring up for the first time, is eating" and "The fish, that we've already spoken about, is eating." Without any context, and just seeing the two sentences together, this is probably what the meaning would be interpreted as.

When we hear the sentences "A fish is eating" and "The fish is eating" in English, it can have the same connotation of something being brought up and something that's already known to you.

A fish--some random fish
The fish--you remember that fish, right?

It's better to define what you mean when you say "a fish" and "the fish" to avoid people jumping on that it's not a 1 to 1 correlation.
Many English sentences don't really translate like that.

"A fish can swim at 20 mph" would be 魚は
(Speaking of fish in general, but saying "a fish")

"Who is eating?" "The fish is eating" would be 魚が
(Selecting the fish out of a group of other things)

What you said wasn't wrong. It's probably right most of the time. If someone just said these sentences out of the blue, that's most likely what it means.

It's when you start analyzing everything that these randomly thought up, context-less, probably said so rarely in real life that we'll never hear them, example sentences could mean, it doesn't hold up. And it seems most people here like to analyze so this thread can go on forever...

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. Thanks.

Mcjon01 Wrote:I just think of は's use in negative sentences as an extension of it's function as a contrastive marker. I don't know how correct it is to do this, as I haven't really studied much grammar outside of the section headings in UBJG, but it makes sense to me.

Yeah, I agree. It's by no means a rule to use は with negative sentences, but the contrastive nature of は makes it more appropriate sometimes.

It's not really something you can study, study, study and then use perfectly. Study it, understand the basics, and through practice you'll use find yourself using one or the other appropriately in cases you didn't even think about before.

There are many, many sentences where the meaning doesn't change at all and you can use both without the listener thinking twice about it. One Japanese person might have said は and the other would say が and it just doesn't matter sometimes. Sometimes it does, and I realize that's the purpose of the thread.

Conversational Japanese drops が (and a couple others) a lot. Doing it actually helps learn to differentiate the two. Because が gets dropped, if は is necessary, it won't be. So you'll find yourself only putting は in when it's needed, and then you'll have that "feeling" someone else talked about as to which goes where. Then when you are speaking politely or writing or whatever, you'll find yourself using each a bit more naturally.

From my experience anyway.

playadom Wrote:Random google search results:
433,000,000 - ではない
4,150,000　- ではありません
8,960,000　－　じゃありません
191,000,000　－　じゃない
328,000,000 - でありません

You sure on that?

Results 1 - 10 of about 195,000,000 for "ではない".
Results 1 - 10 of about 85,300,000 for "ではありません".
Results 1 - 10 of about 8,600,000 for "じゃありません".
Results 1 - 10 of about 191,000,000 for "じゃない".
Results 1 - 10 of about 3,260,000 for "でありません".

I was logged into my gmail account at the time, so Google may have changed settings on me or something.

I just tried in again now, and I got 310,000,000 for でありません. Both logged in and logged out.

Perhaps you are set to 'prefer English pages'?

Then again, googling ではありません just gave me 230,000,000[both logged in, and out..search set to prefer Japanese pages, and to not have a language preference, same number each time]

Maybe google isn't as trustworthy as we thought?

ではありません gave me 258,000,000 hits. Safe to say, google changes from time to time.

が = 2,160,000,000 HP
は = 2,340,000,000 HP

It's seems like は has the advantage. However, if が can manage it's item and technique use a little better, we might have an even match.

Personally, my money's on が. It's ガト more style.

I'm doing a quote marked search.

3,260,000 for "でありません"
333,000,000 for でありません

84,900,000 for "ではありません"
251,000,000 for ではありません

Where do you set what language to prefer? I wouldn't think that would affect the hits, just what order they are presented in.

Under 'preferences' on the main google page. You can also just actually use the Japanese google and tell it to search Japanese sites only (it's a checkbox on the main page).
Edit: And, yes, you should always search with "". Google doesn't actually have a very good way to know how to break up Japanese words, so it will search for individual characters within kana words unless you "" them.

kazelee Wrote:が = 2,160,000,000 HP
は = 2,340,000,000 HP

It's seems like は has the advantage. However, if が can manage it's item and technique use a little better, we might have an even match.

That kind of search will match kana in the middle of words etc too (not just particle usage) so it's not very representational.

According to the Leeds university lemma frequency list, は is more common than が. Here is the top 10 ranking:
1 41309.50 の
2 23509.54 に
3 22216.80 は
4 20431.93 て
5 20326.59 を
6 20110.69 が
7 19235.55 だ
8 17292.36 た
9 16841.17 する
10 15095.29 と

It seems to count a conjugational ending as its own lemma, which is why て and た are there.

Jarvik7 Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:が = 2,160,000,000 HP
は = 2,340,000,000 HP

It's seems like は has the advantage. However, if が can manage it's item and technique use a little better, we might have an even match.

That kind of search will match kana in the middle of words etc too (not just particle usage) so it's not very representational.

I'm almost certain that it was a joke.

Poor で needs some loving. Beat out by two different verb conjugations, and not even making the list. I vote we all make an effort to begin blatantly overusing で.

で is #12 (right behind -ます) so it would be in the top10 if you ignored conjugations.

それでよかったで。
でね
..
....
で

Jarvik7 Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:が = 2,160,000,000 HP
は = 2,340,000,000 HP

It's seems like は has the advantage. However, if が can manage it's item and technique use a little better, we might have an even match.

That kind of search will match kana in the middle of words etc too (not just particle usage) so it's not very representational.

You crack me up sometimes.

kazelee Wrote:You crack me up sometimes.

Considering some stuff I've seen on here and elsewhere, I never assume anyone is playing dumb anymore

You could have noticed that the post said "HP" instead of "hits".

I don't play video-games much so I never picked up on the nerdisms I assumed by item-use etc s/he was trying to express a linguistic concept without (knowing) the terminology.

Jarvik7 Wrote:..I assumed by item-use etc s/he was trying to express..

You're just so danged androgynous, kazelee.

Am I correct that 風の心 is in Thailand? (yes more ladyboy jokes)

RTFLMAO

f@#kz Youz guys

We has gone way off topicz.

QuackingShoe Wrote:Poor で needs some loving. Beat out by two different verb conjugations, and not even making the list. I vote we all make an effort to begin blatantly overusing で.

We need more ぬ-verbs.
死んでーーit's got your でin there anyway =D