Meh, a few friends of mine are going the textbook way. I did some persuasion tricks so they would migrate to the good side of the force, but I don't want to destroy their determination.

The point now is that I chatted with their teacher and she insists only to teach 丁寧語.
What are your arguments against such instruction?

I say let them use the textbook. There is nothing inherently wrong with them. Also, teaching teineigo in beginning level classes is a GOOD idea. It's the safe level of language you can use with anyone instead of coming off as a yokel. It's also what you're mostly likely to encounter with store employees, strangers, and the like. Once you're in-country you'll pick up plain form pretty damn quick from friends & TV. Most texts I've evaluated introduce plain form by 2nd or 3rd year anyways. I don't know why people make a big deal out of this. It's not even remotely hard to progress to plain.

The problem with taking courses and using textbooks is that most students don't supplement it with their own study (and SOME texts are pretty bad. Genki and Nakama are good from what I've seen of them though). You'll never become fluent with JUST classes, but there is no reason not to take them. Just because it's a class and they get credit for it, many people just do the bare minimum to get a decent grade. Yes early level textbooks use contrite examples, but that can't be helped with beginners - language needs to be basic enough for them to digest in small bites. Later textbooks (ex: 中級から上級への日本語) migrate to using actual Japanese. It's a mystery to me why some people will rag on textbooks and then turn around and promote amateurish error filled stuff like EDICT and Tae Kim's grammar guide.

disclaimer: I've completed 4 years worth of Japanese courses, but thanks to supplemental self study I only had to actually take it for 2 years - 1st year and 4th year.

Aside from the fact that they won't understand most reading materials outside of a textbook, will find learning to conjugate verbs more difficult, will think things that should be easy are difficult, and speak in an airy tone to any Japanese friends they may have? Nothing.

Are you saying only teach polite and never plain? Or start out in polite and teach plain later? Those two are completely different.

PrettyKitty Wrote:Aside from the fact that they won't understand most reading materials outside of a textbook, will find learning to conjugate verbs more difficult, will think things that should be easy are difficult, and speak in an airy tone to any Japanese friends they may have? Nothing.

They won't understand any reading materials outside of a textbook anyways as a beginner. A small vocabulary and a lack of grammatical knowledge is a much bigger problem. I never found conjugation to be any harder with teineigo than with plain form. I think they are the same in difficulty, but I've actually seen some people claim that plain form conjugation is harder. Who cares if they speak in an "airy tone" to any Japanese friends they may have? Just because they are taught teineigo in class first doesn't mean that they are stuck with it forever. It takes next to no effort to learn plain after teineigo. (In my case, zero effort since I just picked it up naturally from talking to Japanese people)

Quote:Are you saying only teach polite and never plain? Or start out in polite and teach plain later? Those two are completely different.

No programs teach ONLY teineigo unless they are at a 2yr jr. college or something. They just start with it. The order is generally polite -> plain -> honorific/humble.

It's amazing how many misconceptions people have about classes. It differs depending on the teacher, the teaching environment, the textbook, and most of all, the effort put in by the student.

Taking classes should just be one aspect of one's language learning. You shouldn't surrender all responsibility and study just what the professor tells you to.

Tell them to use Genki. Best beginner text books imo.

Oh and there is no argument against learning 丁寧語。It's like the default for people you first start speaking to in Japanese so it should be learned early on. Also, when you go from 丁寧語 to informal style it's much easier than going from informal to 丁寧語。

I am not basing this on my misconceptions. I am basing it on my observations of a class I was in. In the class I attended, everyone had a lot of trouble with conjugation. And the teacher did NOT teach plain form even at higher levels. It was taught as a "noun modifier form with no meaning on its own."

Beginning students can read texts with a dictionary if they know that the "masu" form isn't the dictionary form of a verb. The students in the class I was in couldn't use a dictionary at the end of the course. The should at least be capable of interpreting text with a dictionary at hand. When they asked about not being able to find "tabemasu" in a dictionary, they were told dictionaries don't match this style of teaching so don't worry about it.

It can cause more confusion in conjugation depending on how the teacher decides to teach it.

Quote:て form explanation:
はなします
いきます　(to live)
あそびます
あびます

For はなします take off ます and add て
For いきます take off ます and add て
These are the same type of verb.

For あそびます take off びます and add んで
So if it's びます, it will be んで, but for あびます take off ます and add て
(Continue like this for all verbs the class knows.)
There isn't really a pattern. You just have to memorize each word.

That's the explanation. Looking at あそぶ and あびる it's plain to see they aren't the same type, but with ます only explanation, it adds some layer of confusion.

Personally, I find that more confusing that necessary. I know that not all teacher's do that surely. But when he said teach only the polite form it made me think of this method.

You obviously are for teaching polite first. I am not so much. I'm not saying I'm against teaching polite first. But some teachers teach conjugations while pretending the plain form of the verb doesn't exist. It all depends really. I am against the way I observed it being taught. That is all.


Edit: To clarify. I'm not against learning teineigo first. There is a difference in first and only. I think even beginning students should at least be aware of plain form.

Wow PrettyKitty, the teacher really didn't explain how conjugations work? Learning the simple rules makes them so much easier, I can't see any reason they wouldn't be taught.

The Japanese I have spoke to seem think it would be hard for foreigners to learn conjugations, but I found it to be one of the easiest things.. After you learn how it works and do a few examples it becomes automatic.

You obviously had a very bad teacher (and text) I've never seen someone try to teach verbs as if -masu was the base form. We learned "dictionary" form but never actually used it in speech & writing, just as a base for conjugation & dictionary lookup. Usage in speech was introduced in 2nd year which I skipped. Both Genki and Nakama introduce verbs using dictionary form I believe, but I've never used a beginner level text (I used a reader + handouts the prof. made in 1st year) so someone would have to confirm.

I have many arguments against instruction, and not just teaching polite speech before. But as much as I hate classroom instruction and the teachers that teach it, if it's what's enjoyable to the student, then they should stay with it.

Also, why does everybody say Genki is good? I tried it out a long while ago, didn't seem special. JFE looked much, much better.

alyks Wrote:Also, why does everybody say Genki is good? I tried it out a long while ago, didn't seem special. JFE looked much, much better.

Genki is da bomb yo~ I wish they made them all the way up to advanced level. Never heard of JFE so can't comment.

Genki and Nakama are the only beginner level books that I've both seen and would recommend. I never learned from either so I'm not exactly "pushing" them. Genki was written by the professors at the school I did 4th year Japanese at so I had plenty of chances to check it out. Nakama is the text that my current university uses and the students here have a surprisingly strong conversational ability.

CaLeDee: Genki is continued, somewhat. An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese is a direct continuation so it's basically Genki3. 中級から上級への日本語 is the 4th book in the series, but the feeling is different since it no longer has the exchange student theme or cartoons (you should have grown out of those by that point). It is mainly focused on reading instead of conversation. After 4th year classes the school just uses authentic sources so there is no text for 5th year study.

Jarvik7 Wrote:CaLeDee: Genki is continued, somewhat. An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese is a direct continuation so it's basically Genki3. 中級から上級への日本語 is the 4th book in the series, but the feeling is different since it no longer has the exchange student theme or cartoons (you should have grown out of those by that point). It is mainly focused on reading instead of conversation. After 4th year classes the school just uses authentic sources so there is no text for 5th year study.

Yea I have both of them. I just finished the 3rd chapter of An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese. It probably is the best continuation from Genki 2 but it's not the same imo. They go over things that I had already done in Genki and the questions at the end of each chapter are terrible. Genki did a good job of drilling the stuff into you, whereas this gives you a few sentences and sends you on your way. The workbook that was made for it is also pretty bad. The CD that came with it is good though. I think they should of kept the same structure as Genki and put more work into the drills at the end of each chapter.