Hello,

I am thinking that perhaps I should skip the english keywords and go directly to some sort of hiragana 'keywords' for all the heisig kanjis.

Is this possible? It seems that the on-yomi/kun-yomi readings aren't entirely unique?

Where can I find a list of kanji and their hiragana 'keywords'?

Thanks

It's very possible, but I don't recommend it for several reasons.

1. You have to be good enough at Japanese to know the words you use as keywords.
2. Some kanji aren't used by themselves, so you need to use a jukugo, a connection of two or more kanji. Now, while you could for example have 公開 as a keyword for 公, you're suddenly loosing a non-vital but still very useful part of Heisig: The idea what the kanji means. All you know is that 公 is used in the first part of 公開 (this jukugo is actually really simple since it means official opening, but not all jukugo are this clear), you wouldn't know what 公 itself means until you've seen it in lots of other jukugo. Personally, I learn new jukugo by seeing the word and reading the keywords for the jukugo. (In the case of 砂漠 for example I read it "sand vague"). While the meanings aren't all that important, it still makes it MUCH easier for me to remember how to write the jukugo later.

Hi scuda, there is a guy doing this already that. Search for "japanese keywords" and you'll find it.

But I'm with Toberoth here.

If you wanna learn the readings along with the kanji there are also other methods.

Hi Scuda,

Quote:Is this possible?

Yes. However, I'm not sure I'd recommend it without either modification or a fairly extensive existing vocabulary.

Part of Heisig's method is linking the kanji to something you already know: the English keyword. If have enough Japanese vocabulary to link each kanji to a word you know, then all the power to you; it sounds like a good idea. However, if you don't know the keywords you're using, you'd just remembering two things instead of one, and it's no longer Heisig's method. This isn't to say it isn't possible, just that it's not Heisig's method.

If you modify the method, it's definitely possible; it's just not Heisig's. I didn't even hear about Remembering the Kanji (RtK) until I had started doing things my way, and I'm stubborn. In 11 months, I learnt to write 2012 kanji as part of Japanese words.

On the downside, it's slower than RtK 1. On the upside, I learnt about 10,000 words in the process and on average at least two readings for each kanji.

If you're starting from the beginning, it might be faster to get through RtK first, but I've only done it my way, so I can't say.

Nathanael, you learned 2012 kanji and 10 000 words between them in 11 months? That's really awesome. How did you do it?

Aye, you know, there is a method out there for going at the same speed as Heisig, but by learning the onyomi readings with it.

There are many kanji that have a readily identifiable kun-yomi that I would prefer to an English word, like 猫（ねこ）、刀（かたな）、印（しるし）、主（ぬし）、迷（まよ・う） to name a few at random.

However, the problem is that there are many kanji with few common readings (e.g., 1) that is also shared with many other kanji. Look up how many kanji are only pronounced かん or しょう. And there are many that are not a single word in their own right.

Probably the best you could do is substitute a word containing the kanji that is closest in meaning to that kanji or exemplifies its usage. Heisig does that with 奈（奈良、なら）. But you would have to be careful that it's not a homophone of another keyword, otherwise it'll mix you up.

Another problem is that there are several words that can be written with multiple kanji depending on the nuance like 計る・量る・測る〔はかる〕、取る・撮る・執る・採る・捕る〔とる〕. I'm not sure what you'd do for those.

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=929

http://wrightak.googlepages.com/

Raichu Wrote:Another problem is that there are several words that can be written with multiple kanji depending on the nuance like 計る・量る・測る〔はかる〕、取る・撮る・執る・採る・捕る〔とる〕. I'm not sure what you'd do for those.

Heisig uses multiple words in his statuses, so maybe something like [重さを量る] perhaps? That's probably a really bad idea though.

No I think it's a good one. In fact, if you follow the link to wrightak's page, he says he uses a short phrase indicating which nuance, e.g., 車が速い vs 早く起きた.

Thanks for the responses guys.

I looked at the movie method and it sounds like it would work. Unfortunately I'm a bit biased against memory systems for no real reason. They just seem weird to me and I feel more comfortable learning "organically". That bias is probably to my loss.

I think I will stick with the english keywords until I complete RTK and then progress onto the japanese keywords using wrightak's material. I like the fact that Fabrice appears to be willing to add the japanese keywords once the list is completed. Maybe by the time I finish RTK in normal mode the japanese mode will be available

I've been influenced by some writings on fluency-based training. I don't know if there's anything online to explain it well. The main principle behind it is that training for speed first and bringing up your accuracy after is the fastest way to fluency. Also, you retain the material far longer and can retrieve it under stress and can retrieve it instantly (these all are basic symptoms of fluency). There were a bunch of studies that showed how interacting with the material at a fast rate and getting instant feedback promoted the speed of learning and the fluency.

So I am trying to find ways to get the fluency-training aspect with learning the kanjis, etc. I think I'll probably be mixing up RTK & lrnj.com's game. RTK is more of a writing exercise so it's a bit slower perhaps. But I find that the SRS notions sort of conflict with the fluency-training notions. I have the feeling that reviews should happen more frequently, will need to figure this out..

I agree with the last part too. I feel that way. But I still can't imagine a better tool than a SRS. Quantity will have to keep up against the frequency.

But anyway, you can have a timer in the SRS. If you take to long to answer a card, fail it.
I'm doing that.

Tokyostyle, thanks for asking, I am fascinated by fluency-based training and I really want to apply this to my japanese learning. :-)

The main difference between training for speed and training for accuracy is what happens after the person reaches 100% accuracy. Typically with school and conventional training it stops there. They might go onto the next level of the subject, even if they take a really long time to answer the questions.

The problem is that fluency is not just accuracy, but also the ability to respond fast. Someone fluent in a language doesn't have to stop and think about the next word they want to say, they just speak normally. Fluency or mastery of a subject is basically accuracy and speed.

The idea behind fluency-based training is to track the rate of response along with the accuracy. Basically, it involves training with a set of subject material until the rate of response and accuracy are both high, and then progressing onto the next set of the subject.

I think this could work well with an SRS. The SRS could track the rate of response and be more intelligent about the scheduling of the reviews. An improved leitner-system perhaps. Imagine if a person takes a minute to remember a kanji. It would be nice if that review came again much sooner in order to reinforce the remembering and to encourage a faster rate of response. Another bonus is that the SRS wouldn't need more than 2 buttons for 'yes' & 'no', this is because the rate of response indicates how easy the kanji is, removing the need for an 'easy' button.

There are also studies showing that people with a high rate of response and high accuracy retain the material far longer than people with low rates of response but high accuracy. I have a book that references several studies.

http://www.fluency.org/Binder_Haughton_Bateman.pdf gives a general overview of fluency-based training as well. There's also more papers at that site.

Here are some excerpts from "Bringing out the Best in People, by Aubrey C. Daniels, Chapter 21: Maximizing Learning - The Fluency Model":

"In his research on learning, Dr. Eric Haughton (1981) made a significant discovery. What Dr. Haughton discovered was this: if a learner was exposed to the basic facts of any body of information and interacted with those facts repeatedly until he or she was not only accurate, but also quick in his or her responses, then the information would be learned, retained, and applied as though the learner had worked with that information for years."

"Other studies have confirmed the relationship between speed of response and learning. In one (Berquam, 1981), students learned to correctly associate three-letter nonsense syllables with numbers. Those who could respond correctly at rates between 50 and 70 per minute, retained 100 percent of this rate when tested three weeks later. Those students whose initial response rate was below 50 per minute had their retention rate fall to as low as 20 percent of their original rate. In a similar association task (Ivarie, 1986), students with response rates of 70 per minute maintained this same level of correct responding in posttests conducted three months later.

In another study conducted in 1979 (Binder, 1987), students were taught to correctly say numbers paired with printed random Hebrew characters and then to perform addition problems using the Hebrew characters in place of numbers. All students were able to perform the addition task at 100 percent accuracy. Later they were distracted during this task by random numbers read to them through headphones. Students who achieved 100 percent accuracy and fluency (high levels of rapid responding) were able to maintain their levels of performance even when distracted. Those students who had achieved 100 percent accuracy but had not achieved high rates of responding were completely disrupted and unable to perform this task at all when distracted."

Very cool stuff!

Interesting stufississes.

This looks like it might be the inspiration for iKnow's brainspeed feature.

Transparent_Aluminium Wrote:This looks like it might be the inspiration for iKnow's brainspeed feature.

My Japanese Coach for Nintendo DS has modes that rush you, too... I dunno if they were inspired by this, or just common sense, but it has the same effect.

What is this japanese coach?

My Japanese Coach is a really bad Japanese training game for DS. Apparently it uses romaji for TONS of lessons and it's extremely easy. You basically won't learn anything from it.

Actually, it is pretty bad, but not for the reasons Tobberoth cites. The romaji you can get past... I'm in an area where it's mostly kana and an increasing number of kanji. I also would not say that the material it presents is "extremely easy." I'm nowhere near done and they have introduced polite and plain forms of non-past, past, non-past negative, and past negative, conjugating both verbs and adjectives.

What's bad about it is:

- no (or very little) SRS
- very little practice at conjugating
- bad stroke order in the kana (see the posting in Learning Resources, starting roughly here, for details) and probably kanji as well

Some easy things are drilled to death, some more difficult things are introduced and breezed past in a few screens worth.

I bought it, knowing it wasn't going to be great, and I still use it, even though I'm disappointed in the aspects above (for instance, since finding out how many stroke orders were incorrect, I've given up the writing portions).

Yeah, it's common for a lot of learning programs/websites out there to have the time-constraint/speed component. Quizlet.com has Speed Race.

I am not sure if those are necessary at all. When I'm learning brand new material, it is too stressful to be rushed like that. However, when I am already familiar with the material, I naturally try to answer it as fast as I can. Kind of defeats the need for the time-constraint.

Tobberoth Wrote:My Japanese Coach is a really bad Japanese training game for DS. Apparently it uses romaji for TONS of lessons and it's extremely easy. You basically won't learn anything from it.

Unless you don't know anything to start with, and then it's not so bad.

Vocab is my weak spot right now, and it's helping with that enough that it was worth the $30. Maybe you're far enough along that you don't remember how painful it is to have no vocab, but I'm still there. And it's painful. Anything that helps me is worth the money right now.

wccrawford Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:My Japanese Coach is a really bad Japanese training game for DS. Apparently it uses romaji for TONS of lessons and it's extremely easy. You basically won't learn anything from it.

Unless you don't know anything to start with, and then it's not so bad.

Vocab is my weak spot right now, and it's helping with that enough that it was worth the $30. Maybe you're far enough along that you don't remember how painful it is to have no vocab, but I'm still there. And it's painful. Anything that helps me is worth the money right now.

It's awful because the stroke orders are mostly wrong, the word definitions are way too simplistic and there are no example sentences unless you go into the dictionary (if even there), and the games are mind numbingly boring and don't even reinforce knowledge (whack-a-mole? wtf?). Many of the games are also horribly broken to the point where they don't work for certain lessons and you just need to go use a different game to get past it. Using romaji is the least of this crappy software's problems. If you look at the credits the only Japanese person involved in the creation of the game is the voice actress. The head developer (sole developer?) says on his blog that he doesn't know Japanese _at all_. I was hoping to use the Chinese version of this software but I don't trust it at all after seeing the trainwreck that is the Japanese version.

wccrawford Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:My Japanese Coach is a really bad Japanese training game for DS. Apparently it uses romaji for TONS of lessons and it's extremely easy. You basically won't learn anything from it.

Unless you don't know anything to start with, and then it's not so bad.

Vocab is my weak spot right now, and it's helping with that enough that it was worth the $30. Maybe you're far enough along that you don't remember how painful it is to have no vocab, but I'm still there. And it's painful. Anything that helps me is worth the money right now.

Pain!?

Hee eez thee Kahnji turminatah

He dahzent feel pain.

Seriously.

"It's awful because the stroke orders are mostly wrong"

Where can you go for the correct ones. Seriously.

Japanese coach gets it especially wrong because they didn't even manage to get the kana right. You have to types of strokes that don't even EXIST in Japanese to pass some.

I just realized that I don't actually have a stroke order reference other than 漢字検定 prep material and DS software. Most published kanji dictionaries meant for foreigners should have a reasonably reliable stroke order guide I think though.