I'm having a bit of trouble with the following sentence:
元は、外国語だったけれども、今は、もう日本人が毎日使う日本語になってしまった言葉を外来語といいます

I get the meaning of the sentence:
"Originally words that came from foreign countries but are now already used every day by the Japanese people, and has become Japanese, those words we call 'gairaigo'."

But I'm having some trouble understanding what the particle を is doing there. Personally I'd expect が. Is this a special use of 言う 'to call something something' thus follows the pattern: 何かを何かという? Or is there some other reason for this を? And if there is, would anyone care to explain?

Thanks in advance!

Yeah, I'd say you're right about the construct. I haven't studied this grammar in particular, but it just sounds wrong to use が in this situation.

From a pure basic grammar perspective, 言葉 IS the object of the sentence, so it makes perfect sense. Subject: 日本人 so 言葉 has to be an object.

Here is my best answer. Anybody correct me if I am wrong.

First the simplest way of using 言う is like this:

「A」を言います　＝　I say "A"

This is the pattern that you're looking at:

「A」を「B]と言います ＝　I say/call "A" as "B"


So let's look at the difficult part:

もう日本人が毎日使う日本語になってしまった言葉を外来語といいます.


「もう日本人が毎日使う日本語になってしまった」 is all modifiying 言葉 (So, "words that have come into every day use by the Japanese"). These types 言葉 are called 外来語.

So to put it in the same pattern as above:

「外来語」を言います - I say "外来語"

「(long-ass modifier)言葉」を「外来語」と言います. I say/call "bla bla words" as "外来語?

Just remember that Google is your friend: get an idea of how to use a particular pattern by searching for it, with astricks used as wildcards.

samesong Wrote:Just remember that Google is your friend: get an idea of how to use a particular pattern by searching for it, with astricks used as wildcards.

First, thanks for the lengthy explanation; Second, I had no idea that you could use wildcards like that in google! Great; I'll make google even more my friend now

Just one more question:

Quote:「A」を言います　＝　I say "A"

If that's I say "A". Then what would '「A」と言います' mean? Is that purely when quoting a third person; or are those two constructions identical in meaning?

Oh wait, is it the difference between:

言葉を言います ' I say words'
and
言葉と言います 'I say "words"'.

I think I just answered my own question.

Sounds like you got it =)

But instead of memorizing how the meanings come across in English, think about how particles are used in Japanese and how they change the meaning.


と is used to show exactly how something sounds, is read as, is spoken as, etc. Think of と as quotation marks that have an actual sound in spoken Japanese.

It's more than a gramatical construction, it's how Japanese people tend to speak. In English, we tend to paraphrase a lot, while Japanese like to retain the same vocal inflections and exact wording of what somebody said.

Say your buddy Bill decided to quit his job, and you're telling somebody else what he said.

In English, we would say, "Bill said he's really pissed and he's quitting his job".

But in Japanese, it would be something like "Bill said, 'I'm really pissed! I'm quitting my job!' "

A subtle nuance, but a very important one.

I'm always wondering why things are always happening inside of people...
それで、よく母に叱られました。

I know you're kidding, but that's still kindof a weird way to look at it. I mean, に doesn't mean 'inside' in any of it's uses.

公園に歩く人がいる。
あの部屋に女の人がいる。
母に叱られました。
That's what I was getting at.

I'm not trying to argue with you, because the original point is pretty, well, pointless, but I wanted to make sure you know that 公園に歩く means walk TO the park, and you have to say 公園を歩く to say you're walking in the park.

QuackingShoe Wrote:I'm not trying to argue with you, because the original point is pretty, well, pointless, but I wanted to make sure you know that 公園に歩く means walk TO the park, and you have to say 公園を歩く to say you're walking in the park.

wouldn't it be possible to interpret it as: There is a walking person in the park. ?
The word order is a bit confusing this way, and it would be clearer in the form 歩く人が公園にいる。But the original form of that sentence would still be legal, although it's a bit ambiguous, right?

alyks Wrote:公園に歩く人がいる。
あの部屋に女の人がいる。
母に叱られました。
That's what I was getting at.

When using a られ-whatever kind of verb[passive or causative], you really should interpret に as meaning to or by. But yeah, I get the joke.

phoenix Wrote:

QuackingShoe Wrote:I'm not trying to argue with you, because the original point is pretty, well, pointless, but I wanted to make sure you know that 公園に歩く means walk TO the park, and you have to say 公園を歩く to say you're walking in the park.

wouldn't it be possible to interpret it as: There is a walking person in the park. ?
The word order is a bit confusing this way, and it would be clearer in the form 歩く人が公園にいる。But the original form of that sentence would still be legal, although it's a bit ambiguous, right?

公園に歩く人がいる means something like "There are people who walk to the park" (as opposed to the norm of driving there for example) not "There is a person walking to the park". You would need to use the continuative form of the verb to express that there is someone walking there (right now).

公園に歩いている人がいる。 There is someone walking to the park.
公園を歩いている人がいる。 There is someone walking in the park.
公園に歩く人がいる。 There are people who walk to the park.
公園を歩く人がいる。 There are people who walk in the park.

Phoenix's sentence "歩く人が公園にいる" means "The people who walk are in the park" which is awkward. It also doesn't even mean that they are walking in the park, just that there are people who walk, and that they are in the park (possibly having a picnic). Even if you made it into "歩いている人は公園にいる" it would only really make sense if it was in response to a question like "Where are the walkers?" since you are fronting and thus emphasizing them. Although in that case it would be unnatural to repeat the subject. You just can't win with the sentence constructed this way

公園に歩く人 literally means "a person who will walk to the park" (you need 歩いている for action that is currently taking place. and even yet it's still not completley natural; you'd want to use 歩いていく for clarification)

edit -- Jarvik hit the 'submit' button about 5 seconds before I did

It's worth noteing that 公園に歩く人 could also mean "A person who usually goes to the park". Non-past is not only used for futute actions but also habits.

Tobberoth Wrote:It's worth noteing that 公園に歩く人 could also mean "A person who usually goes to the park". Non-past is not only used for futute actions but also habits.

I said that..

Quote:公園に歩く人がいる。 There are people who walk to the park.
公園を歩く人がいる。 There are people who walk in the park.

Jarvik7 Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:It's worth noteing that 公園に歩く人 could also mean "A person who usually goes to the park". Non-past is not only used for futute actions but also habits.

I said that..

Quote:公園に歩く人がいる。 There are people who walk to the park.
公園を歩く人がいる。 There are people who walk in the park.

Ah yes, my Swedish mind jumped in for a bit. From my point of view, "There are people who walk to the park." is more or less the same as "There are people walking to the park". In Swedish, a direct translation would mean both things, we aren't as picky with gerunds as English.

Tobberoth Wrote:Ah yes, my Swedish mind jumped in for a bit. From my point of view, "There are people who walk to the park." is more or less the same as "There are people walking to the park". In Swedish, a direct translation would mean both things, we aren't as picky with gerunds as English.

Javla bra! Jag ar svensk.
Fan!

Unfortunately this is all the Swedish I know after years of playing online games among many other Swedish folk =( They were always the funniest/nicest ones though!

Tack
Yeah, finding Swedes online isn't hard, at least not if you like Counter-Strike, Quake or WoW and play on European servers. If you like playing with Swedes and like WoW, I especially recommend the server Shattered Hand... it's basically Sweden in WoW format, I think over 80% of the players there are Swedish.

Tobberoth Wrote:Tack
Yeah, finding Swedes online isn't hard, at least not if you like Counter-Strike, Quake or WoW and play on European servers. If you like playing with Swedes and like WoW, I especially recommend the server Shattered Hand... it's basically Sweden in WoW format, I think over 80% of the players there are Swedish.

Yeah I played with and vs. them in CS for a long time. The Swedish guy in my old CS clan was the strategist and always made everyone laugh, great times :] There was one time at LAN he went up to some annoying guy and shouted "Get out of my country!" He was Swedish and at a UK LAN, shouting at someone from the UK lol. I didn't find as many in Quake but there never was much talking in Quake anyway^^

I played WoW since release and any guild I was in there would be at least 50% Swedish. They often had better English than most other Europeans so it was great. I became good friends with this one Swedish girl who had like 8 lvl 70 chars.. She played around 14 hours a day or something >.< I got pretty addicted as well and it messed with my life so I gave it up.. Japanese has better long term benefits so I don't mind :p I did play on SH for a while but it wasn't my main server.. Bladefist - Stormreaver - Genjuros - SH. Swedish will always be a force to reckon with in online gaming I think. They usually have all the top teams.

Jeez, you guys. Joke, anybody? Funny? Laugh? Don't get into a huge debate about what it could mean in English?

There wasn't any huge debate, they were just genuinely talking about what a sentence means (in JAPANESE, using English to talk about it), because some people weren't sure. It was actually one of the most civil and straightforwardly edifying exchanges I've managed to see on this forum in awhile...

And I, personally, was just trying to make sure that you didn't misunderstand what something meant (in Japanese) because your joke, and then it's explanation, made it seem like you did, and ostensibly this is a sort of learning forum, so I didn't want you, or anyone reading your post, to be confused.

No need to call foul.

QuackingShoe Wrote:There wasn't any huge debate, they were just genuinely talking about what a sentence means (in JAPANESE, using English to talk about it), because some people weren't sure. It was actually one of the most civil and straightforwardly edifying exchanges I've managed to see on this forum in awhile...

And I, personally, was just trying to make sure that you didn't misunderstand what something meant (in Japanese) because your joke, and then it's explanation, made it seem like you did, and ostensibly this is a sort of learning forum, so I didn't want you, or anyone reading your post, to be confused.

No need to call foul.

Meh, you're right. I still should have been more clear about it, I think.