The Answer Is:
http://dictionary.sanseido-publ.co.jp/di...index.html

The Question Is:
What to do post-RTK1?

RATIONALE:
I see this as an i+1 step after RTK1. I wanted to use Kanji in Context's vocabulary, but turning into a typing zombie didn't appeal to me... Overall, the book looks very good and well organized. KiC is more detailed (having more vocabulary per Kanji), but I don't want a dictionary - I want the basics to show me what each Kanji is about, in the context of 熟語 and 文. This book is harder than KO, but easier than KiC, so you still need some knowledge of Japanese. It's no good for students who only know RTK and no Japanese outside of RTK.

TEXT PROS:
- 2100 Kanji (looks like 99%+ overlap with Heisig!!!)
- Stroke Order
- Heavily researched for use in Waseda's Japanese program
- red lettering for ふりがな so you can filter-out with a red plastic sheet (not included)
- up to 3 common 熟語 along with sentences to explain
- up to 5 additional 熟語 (but no translations!) in ふりがな

CD/DATA PROS:
- 36,644 熟語
- Frequency, familiarity, JLPT in .xls and .txt format, so you can sort and filter
- 3000 Kanji

DATA SAMPLE:
番号 表記 読み 品詞 頻度 親密度 頻度値 親密度値 学習指標値 日本語能力試験級 分類語彙表・見出し 分類語彙表・類 分類語彙表・部門 分類語彙表・中項目 分類語彙表・分類項目 分類語彙表・分類番号 分類語彙表・段落番号 分類語彙表・小段落番号 分類語彙表・語番号
1 亜 あ 名 965 5.96 3 5 8 1 亜－ 相 関係 真偽 本体・代理 3.104 4 2 1
2 アーク灯 ああくとう 名 9 2.594 0 0 0 0 アーク灯 体 生産物 機械 灯火 1.46 4 3 1
3 愛 あい 名 6404 6.5 5 5 10 2 愛 体 活動 心 好悪・愛憎 1.302 12 1 1
4 藍 あい 名 250 4.375 2 0 2 0 藍 体 自然 自然 色 1.502 12 3 2

OTHER PROS:
- Only JPY 2,300 + tax for the book & CD

CONS:
- VERY BAD CON: the 36,644 熟語 doesn't contain translations!!!
- You have to be pretty advanced to use this textbook effectively: JLPT2 and better, RTK1 will help a lot...

I am looking into using a database and EDict to fix the English translation problem in the data. If that works mostly (I'll type in the rest), I will generate SRS cards sorted by frequency.

I will post an update later if I succeed in pinning English translations, and come up with a study methodology.

I'm not clear on what this is.

Edit: NM

It's a book for picking up more Kanji vocabulary. Here's a section from the preface of the book:

"The contents of this book are based on materials that were prepared for and used in kanji study classes for foreign students at Waseda University. These materials are designed for students who have already studied some kanji, and in some cases the examples will use words or characters that are not explained in this book.

We feel that this book can be of use to a variety of people working with the Japanese language, in addition to foreign students who are studying Japanese. Elementary school, junior high school and high school students and teachers in Japan can use these materials as a Japanese language and kanji study guide. The user can easily search the data on the CD-ROM to get information about the range of words that make use of kanji already studied, or about the kinds of words that are include in the standard joyo kanji (common use kanji) list and how they are used. The materials can be used as a study guide or as the basis for preparing teaching materials. Three file types, including Excel, Access and text files from Microsoft office can be used to select, sort and process the data as you like."

It is like a Kanji In Context, except each entry is more limited and there is a CD available with tons of vocabulary.

kfmfe04 Wrote:CONS:
- VERY GOOD CON: the 36,644 熟語 doesn't contain translations!!!

Fixed for you.

Good for mining, but it'll get boring as hell.

Why not just pick up a copy of Kanji Learner's Dictionary. It has tons of compounds for nearly all of RtK's kanji along with translations of all of them, organized by SKIP method (with additional reading, radical, etc. indexes) and by meanings. It all has stroke order diagrams as well as some impressive cross-referencing.

Just because the title of the book is in Japanese doesn't mean it's better. Japanese books tend to be, on the whole, organized in Japanese ways which are often the fruit of time and custom rather than logic and reason.

In the end though, either or is a dictionary. They're references. Better to approach them with a plan of some sort already formulated and then use them to put that plan into action.

alyks Wrote:

kfmfe04 Wrote:CONS:
- VERY GOOD CON: the 36,644 熟語 doesn't contain translations!!!

Fixed for you.

EXCELLENT Correction!

I was thinking about that... ...looked like the writers of this book also intended for the students to be immersed at this stage - even in the textbook, there were only translations for the 3 熟語 examples and none for the sentences.

This could be a good thing...

samesong Wrote:Good for mining, but it'll get boring as hell.

I find using SRS for learning vocabulary isn't boring at all. If I ignore production, and only focus on reading and knowing the meaning, I can fly through vocabulary very quickly.

Also, having RTK1 under my belt will make this an extremely enjoyable process as I tie the Kanji to real vocabulary and have sample sentences in the text for reading practice (even got furigana for me to confirm right away).

This is where the real vocabulary is at - RTK1 was just the foundation.

BTW, it's the zombie-typing that sucks - but I won't have to do that here...

I see 4,243 words up to JLPT2. Out of those, only 137 I couldn't find in eDict, but most of the are just due to inexact matches that are easy to understand anyways. Given Alyks' hint, that's enough to greenlight this project: I will suck these into a SRS later today.

FutureBlues Wrote:Why not just pick up a copy of Kanji Learner's Dictionary. It has tons of compounds for nearly all of RtK's kanji along with translations of all of them, organized by SKIP method (with additional reading, radical, etc. indexes) and by meanings. It all has stroke order diagrams as well as some impressive cross-referencing.

Just because the title of the book is in Japanese doesn't mean it's better. Japanese books tend to be, on the whole, organized in Japanese ways which are often the fruit of time and custom rather than logic and reason.

In the end though, either or is a dictionary. They're references. Better to approach them with a plan of some sort already formulated and then use them to put that plan into action.

I have the Kanji Learner's Dictionary, which was very useful during the pre-handwriting-capable-electronic-dictionary days for lookup. My copy is well worn.

I agree that just because it's in Japanese, doesn't mean it's better. To me, this book/CD combo is not just a dictionary. It will allow me to ZERK useful vocabulary via SRS, initially sorted by frequency/usefulness order; I don't want to lose momentum after RTK1.

I'm not trying to sell this book... ...I just found it to be useful post-RTK1 and wanted to share it with others. BTW, it was published in March of this year and as I mentioned before, it's being used at Waseda, probably for their intensive Japanese course.

Given the opinions posted on this board, some people may see that last point as a negative, but each to his own...

Wow, are you just dry mining the vocab? Why not do it with sentences to learn grammar points as well?

alyks Wrote:Wow, are you just dry mining the vocab? Why not do it with sentences to learn grammar points as well?

Unfortunately, the sentences aren't on the CD so I will just study the sentences in the book.

I study grammar separately, using UNICOM's JLPT2 文法編. I listen to the CD repeatedly, or the pattern doesn't set in.

Plain vocabulary is easier than grammar - I can dry mine those.

I've heard it said that learning pure vocabulary is not very efficient. It's like studying piano technique without actually working on music. It's better to gain technique from actually learing pieces than to drill technique dry for however long. Much the same way, it's better get vocab from sentences rather than lists.

I can personally vouch for the piano study. However, I'm new to studying language so I can't say for certain whether this is true.

The idea of dry mining vocab like this is not a new one.
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=1726
I am firmly against it.

kazelee Wrote:Much the same way, it's better get vocab from sentences rather than lists.

I can personally vouch for the piano study. However, I'm new to studying language so I can't say for certain whether this is true.

I'll vouch for the language side of things. I started studying using word lists and thought it was great: I could say 追加する, 鍋, 水, and 熱い and knew what they meant in English. Then I got in a conversation and tried making a sentence. It came out something like そして、熱い水を鍋に追加して which is grammatically correct, and which if you translate using the meanings from the word list worked perfectly. Needless to say it generated a few laughs because no one would ever explain making Jello using those words.

By learning the vocabulary in the context of a sentence, you also learn what words are used to describe what actions. By learning in context, you know it should be 鍋にお湯を入れて instead.

Everyone is >WAY< ahead of me - I am not thinking of PRODUCTION yet! Instead, I want to focus on recognition, for now. The way I look at it, if I do this in "sweeps", it will be more efficient overall. Just so people don't get the wrong idea, I have lived in Tokyo for 4 years now and can "get by" in basic, conversational Japanese - but I do make mistakes in production like Nathanael's example - these issues will be corrected, in time.

1. RTK1 (DONE) -> Production
2. 熟語 Vocab Recognition up to JLPT2 via SRS -> Recognition
3. A lot of listening/AJATT-type? -> Recognition
4. Production

Of course, this is not 100% accurate - as I mentioned before, I will concurrently study sentences in context (in the textbook), as they make life more interesting, but they would be rather hard to read/interpret, if I don't know the words yet! (A little chicken and egg issue.) I will read sentences for recognition/understanding initially. I am also listening to UNICOM's CD for grammar patterns for maybe an hour a day. To avoid getting into a rut, I also read some magazines and books in Japanese in bits and pieces for fun - not serious study.

I'm well aware of idiomatic expressions and grammar issues that can only be resolved through tons of input - I'm experimenting with that now, for JLPT2 grammar studies. In fact, I find the CD in UNICOM's grammar books to be perfect - I went from totally despising those sentences into loving them: it's tilting me towards thinking that I will do something like AJATT in 3. In fact, if I can find a stack of CDs like UNICOM's for part 3, I will be totally set...

I agree with the part of AJATT that says immersion is necessary to produce natural/correct Japanese. I just want to "squeeze in" more vocabulary recognition before I do the immersion. The problem with immersion and passive study is, you have to do it for a LONG TIME and repetitively to really benefit. It's kind of like pouring buckets of water over my head, but only getting slightly wet every time. But one day, miraculously, instead of finding myself only slightly wet, I find I am drowned and totally immersed in the language.

Now, I could run Japanese audio all the in the background all the time ala AJATT (working in parallel), but I'm not sure that works well for me, yet. Once I do that, I tend to slow down a lot in any tasks that require a lot of concentration. Unfortunately, my multi-tasking proficiency doesn't appear to be very high.

To make sum this up, I think I can do a "recognition-sweep" of around 4,000 vocabulary in about 2-3 months. After which, I will go into some kind of immersion mode. The details of how to do 3. is still unclear at this point.

The common thread in my study methods is, I do believe that ideally, doing i+1, is the best for me. The hard part is coming up with the resources or methodology so I can pick things up a-step-at-a-time, but do that step intensively and efficiently. It's like in each stage, I have one main focus of study, and lots of little, smaller parts done in parallel. I am in stage 2, but I still do daily RTK reviews, and I watch some Japanese television - I may begin to watch the news every day, etc...

Through enough perseverance, I think we will all reach certain levels of proficiency. But I think due to differences in everyone's background and preferences, there may be more or less efficient ways of getting there. That's why I'm always appreciative of everyone's suggestions. The creativity of the hive is much higher than just the sum of the individuals - in most cases...

Just look at any of the recent/live threads on this board - the suggestions of resources and methods of study is a gold-mine.

Thanks for everyone's input!

4243 jMemorize cards generated for vocab up to JLPT2. I will go from:

Kanji -> reading + meaning

starting from today.

I hope to take about 2-2.5 months to complete this. I'm expecting this to be easier and much faster than RTK1, according to previous studies in vocab.

Concurrently, I will
- read sentences from the text for fun and practice
- continue RTK1 review
- continue JLPT2 grammar listening and review

That should be enough for now...

I realized that finding "i+1" material is actually very easy: just look for something that you enjoy. If it is too difficult, you will not enjoy it. You may be able to get some enjoyment out of material simply because you are understanding it. If this is the case, you may get bored when it becomes easy to understand. So just look for what you enjoy and you will definitely learn from it.

i have been doing ko2001 and jlpt3+4 vocab lists concurrently. The vocab list isnt that big with only 411 facts but i think knowing some of those simple words would help quite a bit (maybe more for the test than actually real life usage) what u guys think?

saizen Wrote:i have been doing ko2001 and jlpt3+4 vocab lists concurrently. The vocab list isnt that big with only 411 facts but i think knowing some of those simple words would help quite a bit (maybe more for the test than actually real life usage) what u guys think?

Paraphrasing danieldesu, if it's not too easy and not too hard, and it's interesting, then do it!