Doesn't the study whose summary was posted earlier suggest that there are no such things as L1 and L2 spaces?

Tobberoth Wrote:All form of science works like that though, to a certain degree. You have some empirical knowledge which you use to make a hypothesis. The act of induction. By testing the hypothesis, you get a theory.

I wish it could be so simple to get a theory.

Edit. - By the way, how you feel your L2 is affected or not by your L3 hardly qualifies as empirical knowledge...

adutrifoy Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:All form of science works like that though, to a certain degree. You have some empirical knowledge which you use to make a hypothesis. The act of induction. By testing the hypothesis, you get a theory.

I wish it could be so simple to get a theory.

Well it is, it's just WAY harder to get a GOOD theory

Tobberoth Wrote:I'm not going to call you a liar (...)

In a way, I like this answer better. And although I would resent it, you may call me a liar, if you feel you need to. People don't have to accept every statement on the internet as true, on the contrary, it's obviously good to have a critical mindset. Or, as you do, you may express disbelief. However, I think that doubting a person's words is an invitation to pause and ponder oneself. I don't want to derail this thread further so I'll respond substantively in the other. I apologize to you and to the other for this.

thorstenu Wrote:From a scientific point of view, I am really glad, that neurolinguistics do a little more than only saying: " I have strong feeling of a L1 and L2 in my brain.. so this must be the way the brain works. Especially because two friends of mine have the same feeling. There is no alternative."

I'm actually interested in this, since, like some others here, I've felt the interactions between languages, so I'll ask: what more do the neurolinguists do, and what do they find?

Don't we have an example of what they do in Reply #29 of this thread?

Yeah, but fMRI scan results have clearly been invalidated and rendered obsolete by Tobberoth's personal interpretation of his own experience with languages:

Quote:I'm just saying that since my L3 is having no impact on my L2, it's impossible that the brain handles secondary languages in the way stated."

Because, after all:

Quote:Especially such a "hard" science as neurolinguistics where we are interested in how the brain neurologically and biologically controls our language. In such a science, we want facts, not interpretations.

lol

Tobberoth - with respect, your attempts to escape this quagmire of contradictions with pseudo logic and science, while entertaining, appear to be getting you further entangled. (What was that phrase you used - "hilariously bad"?) Perhaps time to cut your losses?

LOL. This topic has like 10 posts over the course of 7 months, then the Tobbernator steps in and two pages spawn overnight.

Bad Tobberoth....Baaddd....

So I'm watching Kamen Rider Den-O and I'm getting like every other word that's being said and I'm loving it, but all of a sudden the website I'm streaming from goes Chernobyl on me and I get a message about bandwidth. I'm on episode 12 (skipping a few that wouldn't work).

What I'm noticing is that whenever I come across a phrase or word that sounds familiar but I can't quite place it I stop paying attention to the show for a while. Not surprising, though, this happens with English as well.

Let the man 'ave is thoughts, if you don't like 'em then don't worry about them. Constantly bickering derails the topic and just leads to a childish flame war in which nobody wins.

Exactly. We all have own way of expressing ourselves. But until newer folks learn to appreciate our Tobberoth's personal style, we seem to end up with repeated and seemingly endless debates. T acknowledges this, and I feel comfortable appealing to him to just let certain debates die (as opposed to asking the rest of the community to ignore him ;-)) He enjoys debate, has a sense of humour and is (I presume) not at all offended by my ribbing. Besides, he started it! (just kidding).

Brittswimmer1y6 Wrote:Let the man 'ave is thoughts, if you don't like 'em then don't worry about them. Constantly bickering derails the topic and just leads to a childish flame war in which nobody wins.

That statement is false. From my personal experience arguing with Tobberoth proves to be most exciting... when it's not derailing topics and leading to flame wars... that is

And since Mr. Tobberoth is the man in question, perhaps he could add to the discussion by ignoring the counterarguments presented against him and instead talk about any sort of weird occurrence or shifts in perceptions that have been presented during his trials in multilingualism.

For those interested in the actual neurology (as opposed to people's differing phenomenological experience and speculations therefrom arising), this article is focused on the question of an L2 known well versus an L3 known not so well.

Gist: The better you know a language, the less brain activation is used to process it. Perhaps this explains why our RTK brains are fatigued and we find satisfaction in more simple tasks like exchanging mutual insults!


American Journal of Neuroradiology, Vol 17, Issue 3 473-477, Copyright © 1996 by American Society of Neuroradiology

Use of functional MR to map language in multilingual volunteers

O Yetkin, F Zerrin Yetkin, VM Haughton and RW Cox
Department of Radiology, Medical College of Wisconsin, Milwaukee 53226, USA.

PURPOSE: To use functional MR imaging to compare brain activation during processing of languages in which multilingual volunteers are fluent with brain activation during processing of languages in which they are not fluent. METHODS: Echoplanar images were obtained for five right-handed male multilingual subjects who performed a language task in three languages, one of which was a language in which the subject was not fluent. The functional MR technique included echoplanar images obtained at 1 per second during cycles of rest and performance of the task, from which functional images were processed by means of cross- correlation analysis. The numbers of active pixels in each volunteer and for each language were compared. RESULTS: Activation was noted in the left frontal lobe in all subjects performing language tasks. In each subject, the number of activated pixels was greatest for the language in which the subject was least fluent. CONCLUSION: Functional MR imaging shows differences in the processing of different languages in multilingual volunteer subjects, depending on the level of fluency in the language, and it is an effective functional imaging method for studying the processing of different languages

Thora Wrote:Yeah, but fMRI scan results have clearly been invalidated and rendered obsolete by Tobberoth's personal interpretation of his own experience with languages:

Quote:I'm just saying that since my L3 is having no impact on my L2, it's impossible that the brain handles secondary languages in the way stated."

Because, after all:

Quote:Especially such a "hard" science as neurolinguistics where we are interested in how the brain neurologically and biologically controls our language. In such a science, we want facts, not interpretations.

lol

Tobberoth - with respect, your attempts to escape this quagmire of contradictions with pseudo logic and science, while entertaining, appear to be getting you further entangled. (What was that phrase you used - "hilariously bad"?) Perhaps time to cut your losses?

As for your later post in this thread, I do enjoy debating and I'm not offended at all. I'm only offended when people like that Hanzihub guy for example start to rely heavily on ad hominem and direct insults instead of furthering the discussion. I mean, if someone disagrees with me and can't make me see their way by argumentation, isn't it better to simply stop answering my posts than to call me an idiot?

As for this post, I feel you're missing my point. When I said "definitely false", I was referring to the article Wally was referring to. The article, according to Wally's way of wording it, states that L1 is saved in a special space in your brain, keeping it safe from other languages. Other languages however share space, which is why they overwrite each other. That obviously can't be true because me (and all the other people who speaks more than 2 languages) falsifies it just by existing. The only comeback to that would be "Well, this is just a theory, there are alternatives like you, an exception where it works differently". And that's my point, in neurological science, there can't be alternatives like that. Either the languages are saved like that article claims, or they aren't. "It does for some" isn't valid in this case (there are tons of sciences where it is however!). There is no room for that article to be true while my experience is true at the same time.

As for Kazelee: I could ignore the counterarguments, but I like the debate and if I do not answer counterarguments, the debate dies. IMO, the debate should work as such: one gives an opinion, someone else describes why they disagree, the first person protects their own opinion while countering the arguments of the second one and so it continues until the participants feel it has been solved or at least reached some form of end. The point isn't to make the others change their mind but to further your own position while learning from everyone elses.

If (as neurological studies seem to suggest) L1 requires the least brain activation, wellknown L2s somewhat more, and not-wellknown L3s the most extensive activation, it would make sense that two not-wellknown L3s have the most interference.

As a language is consolidated perhaps something like defragging occurs. L3s in process are activating all over the place and not yet defragged, so are most likely to be using some of the same diffuse circuitry simultaneously and thus causing interfererence.

There is still plenty of room for individual differences, both in degree of dispersion when learning L2 and L3, and effectiveness of consolidation as defragging takes place and the language passes over into fluency.

Overwriting as a metaphor is probably a good one for short term memory (which we purge regularly) but not so good for long-term memory (which may be easier or more difficult to access depending on how commonly it is used, but doesn't seem particularly subject to decay/overwrite/extinction except in actual brain degeneration such as Alzheimer's).

Tobberoth Wrote:When I said "definitely false", I was referring to the article Wally was referring to. The article, according to Wally's way of wording it, states that L1 is saved in a special space in your brain, keeping it safe from other languages. Other languages however share space, which is why they overwrite each other. That obviously can't be true because me (and all the other people who speaks more than 2 languages) falsifies it just by existing.

That's not obvious at all. One could still imagine that other languages share space (so that overwriting is possible) but that this space is organized differently depending on the way people learn the languages, and that only some unfortunate types of organization induce overwriting.

Harrow Wrote:If (as neurological studies seem to suggest) L1 requires the least brain activation, wellknown L2s somewhat more, and not-wellknown L3s the most extensive activation, it would make sense that two not-wellknown L3s have the most interference.

As a language is consolidated perhaps something like defragging occurs. L3s in process are activating all over the place and not yet defragged, so are most likely to be using some of the same diffuse circuitry simultaneously and thus causing interfererence.

There is still plenty of room for individual differences, both in degree of dispersion when learning L2 and L3, and effectiveness of consolidation as defragging takes place and the language passes over into fluency.

Overwriting as a metaphor is probably a good one for short term memory (which we purge regularly) but not so good for long-term memory (which may be easier or more difficult to access depending on how commonly it is used, but doesn't seem particularly subject to decay/overwrite/extinction except in actual brain degeneration such as Alzheimer's).

Well in that case, you're making the case that the first space isn't reserved for L1 but for consolidated languages which has been "defragged" so to speak. Very well, I still doubt it however. I've been studying quite a few languages on the "beginning stages" and I've never run into interference except for when I'm learning an extremely similar language after having stopped my studies in another. Spanish and Italian for example. Studied Spanish, stopped learning and using it completely and studied Italian. Almost identical grammar, many identical words. Logical that they would affect one another.

Japanese and Chinese though? Japanese and Korean? Never had any interference in those. You say personal differences are still possible but to what degree? Those differences would still be from outside of the brain, right? Study methods for example.

Tobberoth Wrote:As for Kazelee: I could ignore the counterarguments, but I like the debate and if I do not answer counterarguments, the debate dies.

Well.... could you do me a small favor and debate it in another thread? I love a debate as much the next guy, and so I'd appreciate if you guys did continue.... just in another thread.

kazelee Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:As for Kazelee: I could ignore the counterarguments, but I like the debate and if I do not answer counterarguments, the debate dies.

Well.... could you do me a small favor and debate it in another thread? I love a debate as much the next guy, and so I'd appreciate if you guys did continue.... just in another thread.

Certainly... but the topic is from October so is it really such a big deal?

Tobberoth Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:As for Kazelee: I could ignore the counterarguments, but I like the debate and if I do not answer counterarguments, the debate dies.

Well.... could you do me a small favor and debate it in another thread? I love a debate as much the next guy, and so I'd appreciate if you guys did continue.... just in another thread.

Certainly... but the topic is from October so is it really such a big deal?

Yes! The purpose of the topic is to share experiences, not debate the likelihood of L2 overwriting L1 (how it got morphed to that is one of life's great mysteries). I liken this to debating the meaning of what finished truly is on the I just completed RTK congratulate me thread (or has that been done already; okay bad example but you get what I mean).

Oh... I was hoping to ask a few questions about the info Harrow kindly rummaged up for us. Hopefully they're on topic enough. (I figure the neurological basis that may explain our strange language experiences is related, non?...)

btw Serge's earlier description seems to be backed up by Harrow's info.

(1) "12 multilingual right-handed men": I wonder if that's just a precaution or is sex and handedness known to affect language results (variation)?

(2) "the performance of language tasks in different languages engages largely the same cerebral areas": Does this mean that language tasks (regardless of language) are more associated with particular brain real estate than a language itself? This might be a neurological explanation for why French vocab would pop out when I struggled to find a Japanese word (as an alternative to the "you're relying too much on on translation" explanation).

(3) To the extent that language tasks activate separate areas, I wonder what this implies for linking the kanji memory 'hooks' we've created with RTK to stuff we learn later about the kanji using listening, reading etc.

(4) "a consequent effect of language exposure was found for reading, where increased familiarity engages more occipital activation whereas decreased familiarity appears to be associated with increased [activation of some other area]...". I wonder if this relates to the way we 'see' overall shapes of words in languages we're more fluent in, but rely on intellectually parsing separate components when learning a language? (posts #4 and 5)

Just curious. [I recently read "This is Your Brain on Music" and "Musicophilia" and am now curious about the strange ways language affects our brains and vice versa]

-fixed quote

An aside: I found this interesting: After scanning people's brains while they listened to music, they found that musicians' brains were activated in more areas (both hemispheres). There's no way of knowing whether they experience music differently, just that their brains do. This poses interesting questions for language acquisition and brain plasticity.

Back to Kazelee's original post...

Understanding more and more Japanese + endorphins = happy time

Just need to get some endorphins now.

An interesting occurrence: Where, at first, French crept up when I couldn't find the words I wanted to say in Japanese, now, Japanese has completely taken over my French.

I was attempting to converse with an individual while playing Halo. I could only find a few basic French words. The rest was Japanese.

Either I'm making progress in Japanese, my French has gone out the window, or some weird combination of both is happening.

I find this thread quite entertaining.

Here's my opinion: I am a native, monolingual English speaker. Living from birth in San Diego, I've had people prompting me to learn Spanish from day one. I've taken Spanish every year since kindergarten. Then, in my Sophomore year of high-school, it ended. I said, "screw Spanish, I'm sick of y'all stuffing it down my throat, I'm learning Japanese." In one month I'd learned more Japanese than from ten years of Spanish. But after a while, whenever I try to say something in Spanish, it would come out as "Que es para la comida か?" When I first started learning Japanese, the opposite happened, I'd fill in Spanish words for the unknown Japanese ones. Example: これはあなたの libro ですか? Through everyday use of English, Spanish, and Japanese, this doesn't seem to be happening anymore to me.

Perhaps this phenomenon is merely just something that happens when one starts learning another language. People start confusing the rules for the L3 when they weren't even solid on their L2 to begin with. I'm not saying this is the way it is, but rather, this is what I've experienced. Others may be solid on an L1, L2, L3, L4, L5 and still mix stuff up once in a while with their L6. I wouldn't know, as I'm not awesome enough to know six languages.

One thing I find weird is when I go to grade a sentence in Anki and realize I can't properly grade it because 'knowing' the sentence was so transparent to me, it came and went instantly to the point that I couldn't remember if the meaning I understood was English or Japanese, or I 'read' it instantly, or I spoke it and/or wrote it without trying or thinking about it. Sometimes I consider it 'bad', depends on whether I'm grading specific elements of the sentence (audio, vocab, grammar), etc.

nest0r Wrote:One thing I find weird is when I go to grade a sentence in Anki and realize I can't properly grade it because 'knowing' the sentence was so transparent to me, it came and went instantly to the point that I couldn't remember if the meaning I understood was English or Japanese, or I 'read' it instantly, or I spoke it and/or wrote it without trying or thinking about it. Sometimes I consider it 'bad', depends on whether I'm grading specific elements of the sentence (audio, vocab, grammar), etc.

I'd consider it as 'fluency.' That's just me though...