julz6453 Wrote:

Harrow Wrote:Since I have been studying Japanese intensively, I cannot produce Spanish AT ALL -- it comes out in Japanese, even though my comprehension of Spanish seems unaffected.

Same thing happens to me with French. I'm guessing it's because I spend so much more time studying Japanese than I do French.

Like you said, everyone processes multilingualism differently. One thing I've noticed with myself is "Japanese English" coming out - some sentences I say in English don't sound right the first time, and I have to correct myself because I was using Japanese sentence structure and grammar rules.

Same experience with French. My Japanese is crushing it. I read somewhere once that native and secondary languages have discreet storage locations in the brain -- the only one that really gets its own "space" is the native tongue. That sounds unlikely to me, however my experience with what Japanese is doing to my French lends some credence to the idea.

Wally Wrote:

julz6453 Wrote:

Harrow Wrote:Since I have been studying Japanese intensively, I cannot produce Spanish AT ALL -- it comes out in Japanese, even though my comprehension of Spanish seems unaffected.

Same thing happens to me with French. I'm guessing it's because I spend so much more time studying Japanese than I do French.

Like you said, everyone processes multilingualism differently. One thing I've noticed with myself is "Japanese English" coming out - some sentences I say in English don't sound right the first time, and I have to correct myself because I was using Japanese sentence structure and grammar rules.

Same experience with French. My Japanese is crushing it. I read somewhere once that native and secondary languages have discreet storage locations in the brain -- the only one that really gets its own "space" is the native tongue. That sounds unlikely to me, however my experience with what Japanese is doing to my French lends some credence to the idea.

That's definitely false. I'm fluent in Swedish and English, Japanese has made no impact what so ever on either.

I think the massive interference with Spanish is because I never really solidified Spanish as a language -- mostly picked it up visiting Spain, so it never got "solid". Dutch solidified as a fluent second language when I was 11-12, so, although I get rusty, I never seem to have any interference.

Of course, just in terms of sounds and pronunciation, Japanese is also a LOT more similar to Spanish or Italian than to any Germanic language (another possible reason why your Swedish and English are unaffected, Tobberoth, apart from how solidly they are secured in your brain).

Wally Wrote:I read somewhere once that native and secondary languages have discreet storage locations in the brain -- the only one that really gets its own "space" is the native tongue. That sounds unlikely to me, however my experience with what Japanese is doing to my French lends some credence to the idea.

There have been far fewer neuro studies of multilingualism than bilingualism, but I just found the following after a quick search of the relevant lit:

Multilingualism: an fMRI study

Guy Vingerhoetsa, John Van BorselCorresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail The Corresponding Author, b, Cathelijne Tesinka, Maurits van den Noorta, Karel Deblaerec, Ruth Seurincka, Pieter Vandemaelec and Eric Achtenc

NeuroImage
Volume 20, Issue 4, December 2003, Pages 2181-2196

Abstract

To investigate the hypothesis that in multilingual speakers different languages are represented in distinct brain regions, 12 multilingual right-handed men performed a word fluency task, a picture naming task, a comprehension reading task, and their respective control tasks in three languages (Dutch, French, and English) while whole-head functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) was applied. In general, all language tasks revealed predominantly overlapping regions of activation for the different languages. Cerebral activation during use of the foreign languages showed a tendency toward a more extensive recruitment of the areas activated in the native language and the activation of a greater number of regions. Word generation in the foreign languages elicited additional bilateral inferior frontal activation, including Broca's area and left middle temporal gyrus activation; in the native language, additional postcentral activation was found. Picture naming in the foreign languages recruited additional inferior-lateral and medial frontal regions predominantly on the left, and more posterior right hemispheric activation in the mother tongue. During comprehension reading there was more activation in medial posterior regions in the native language. Our results suggest that the performance of language tasks in different languages engages largely the same cerebral areas but that the brain, to perform at a comparable proficiency level, engages more neural substrates for later acquired languages. Our findings do not support the view that languages learned later in life entail more right hemispheric involvement. Finally, a consequent effect of language exposure was found for reading, where increased familiarity engages more occipital activation whereas decreased familiarity appears to be associated with increased left hemispheric inferior frontal activation.

Tobberoth Wrote:

Wally Wrote:

julz6453 Wrote:Same thing happens to me with French. I'm guessing it's because I spend so much more time studying Japanese than I do French.

Like you said, everyone processes multilingualism differently. One thing I've noticed with myself is "Japanese English" coming out - some sentences I say in English don't sound right the first time, and I have to correct myself because I was using Japanese sentence structure and grammar rules.

Same experience with French. My Japanese is crushing it. I read somewhere once that native and secondary languages have discreet storage locations in the brain -- the only one that really gets its own "space" is the native tongue. That sounds unlikely to me, however my experience with what Japanese is doing to my French lends some credence to the idea.

That's definitely false. I'm fluent in Swedish and English, Japanese has made no impact what so ever on either.

I know you love to post absolute statements and brook no controversy, but "that's definitely false" because you say so, based on your own experience, doesn't cut any mustard with me. You might try not sounding so cock-sure when you write in English. And your experience is just that, and should be presented as such. You could be an exception, not a rule.

Well, I'm another exception I guess, and can say that my Japanese abilities have not affected my Russian or English whatsoever.

Wally Wrote:I know you love to post absolute statements and brook no controversy, but "that's definitely false" because you say so, based on your own experience, doesn't cut any mustard with me. You might try not sounding so cock-sure when you write in English. And your experience is just that, and should be presented as such. You could be an exception, not a rule.

"I read somewhere" is actually just as useless.

From what I have observed in myself and other people, there seem to be two areas in our mind: one is reserved for 'Native' and the other one for 'Foreign'.

Foreign languages that we know really well seem to cross over into the 'Native' section and are no longer being confused with any others, or they take a place of their own, if you will.

'Foreign' is reserved for any languages at lower levels of proficiency. And the one which is being actively studies seems to dominate that area totally. This is why if someone with a rudimentary knowledge of French dating back a few years is actively studying Japanese and is then asked to say something in French (well within their French capacity), they quickly access the 'Foreign' area where French is stored and start speaking 'Foreign' - which happens to be Japanese because that's what happens to be their most active language in that section.

Ask the same person to speak a (non-native) language he knows extremely well and no such confusion occurs.

I completely agree with the post above. Studying Japanese has left my Polish, Russian, Lithuanian and English completely unaffected, but whenever I try to make a sentence in Spanish (which I barely know), Japanese comes out instead.

QuackingShoe Wrote:

Wally Wrote:I know you love to post absolute statements and brook no controversy, but "that's definitely false" because you say so, based on your own experience, doesn't cut any mustard with me. You might try not sounding so cock-sure when you write in English. And your experience is just that, and should be presented as such. You could be an exception, not a rule.

"I read somewhere" is actually just as useless.

I qualified the statement. Capice? (Seriously, reading should not be careless; my statement is presented as anything *but* an absolute. The only other thing I could do to help you understand this would maybe be to preface those difficult parts of my post with "WARNING: ANECDOTAL AND/OR HYPOTHETICAL STUFF FOLLOWS")

I thought your problem was that his assertion was (relatively) baseless, not that he asserted it a particular way. So I suppose I misunderstood. Though I think my misunderstanding was actually in your favor, now that I see the actuality...

QuackingShoe Wrote:I thought your problem was that his assertion was (relatively) baseless, not that he asserted it a particular way. So I suppose I misunderstood. Though I think my misunderstanding was actually in your favor, now that I see the actuality...

Thought it might have been a joke, by how absolute it sounded. With Mr. T, you never know, though.

Nonetheless, I'm watching Kamen Rider Gen-O in between iKnow sessions.


And I'm loving every moment of it, lol

One of these days, I'm gonna get into tokusatsu.

Actually, hmm, nah, I probably won't. But I will always feel like I'm missing something!

^ this

When I make sentences I accidentally put the verb at the end

I also say "How do you think about it' instead of "what do you think of it"

Wally Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:

Wally Wrote:Same experience with French. My Japanese is crushing it. I read somewhere once that native and secondary languages have discreet storage locations in the brain -- the only one that really gets its own "space" is the native tongue. That sounds unlikely to me, however my experience with what Japanese is doing to my French lends some credence to the idea.

That's definitely false. I'm fluent in Swedish and English, Japanese has made no impact what so ever on either.

I know you love to post absolute statements and brook no controversy, but "that's definitely false" because you say so, based on your own experience, doesn't cut any mustard with me. You might try not sounding so cock-sure when you write in English. And your experience is just that, and should be presented as such. You could be an exception, not a rule.

What you "heard somewhere" said that only L1 gets it's own space. Obviously not true since my L2 has it's own space as well. If I'm an exception to that rule, the rule obviously isn't true, so it's false. What could possibly be true is that "Some peoples brains lock their L1 in a specific part of the brain and shares parts for L2+". I would still doubt that but I wouldn't call it flat out false.

Tobberoth Wrote:

Wally Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:That's definitely false. I'm fluent in Swedish and English, Japanese has made no impact what so ever on either.

I know you love to post absolute statements and brook no controversy, but "that's definitely false" because you say so, based on your own experience, doesn't cut any mustard with me. You might try not sounding so cock-sure when you write in English. And your experience is just that, and should be presented as such. You could be an exception, not a rule.

What you "heard somewhere" said that only L1 gets it's own space. Obviously not true since my L2 has it's own space as well. If I'm an exception to that rule, the rule obviously isn't true, so it's false. What could possibly be true is that "Some peoples brains lock their L1 in a specific part of the brain and shares parts for L2+". I would still doubt that but I wouldn't call it flat out false.

I simply tried to share my own experience, never intending for a second to claim that it was definitive, or that what I read (not heard) was gospel. But what I really want to know is where again did you get your doctorate in neuroscience.

It's so nice to try and slide into a discussion gently, only to find Mr. T right on the spot leading back with a magnanimous, "That's definitely false." And BTW, I'm pretty good at putting quotes around material that was actually written, too.

I think the reason that Wally was getting offended is because he took Mr. T's statement to mean "It's not possible to get confused with languages, because I don't". If I understood Mr. T right, he meant that it's not possible that only L1 is stored in a certain area of the brain, a point we're still trying to verify.

Small misunderstanding I wanted to try and clarify before things blew up any more. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Machine_Gun_Cat Wrote:When I make sentences I accidentally put the verb at the end

I also say "How do you think about it' instead of "what do you think of it"

I've done that. (^_^

julz6453 Wrote:I think the reason that Wally was getting offended is because he took Mr. T's statement to mean "It's not possible to get confused with languages, because I don't". If I understood Mr. T right, he meant that it's not possible that only L1 is stored in a certain area of the brain, a point we're still trying to verify.

Small misunderstanding I wanted to try and clarify before things blew up any more. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Exactly. I'm not saying everyone who has this form of interference etc is an idiot, I'm just saying that since my L3 is having no impact on my L2, it's impossible that the brain handles secondary languages in the way stated. People might have very different experiences with learning etc but there are still objective facts behind it all, the brain doesn't work in a completely different way in different people. I'm sure there are situations where languages can somehow "overwrite" one another but it won't be something neurological or biological like that since it would be the same for all people. In all probability it's because someone studied one language for a short while then stopped studying it which means it wasn't solidified and isn't reviewed, so it falls away while the new one takes over.

True - though, I'm studying both French and Japanese at the moment, and not at basic levels in either of them... so who knows why my brain just spouts out Japanese when requested for French. I guess it's all the extra effort I'm putting into my Japanese studies.

I refrained to give my opinion until now, but here it is:

I feel like there are not really L1, L2 and L3. There is only one big L. The languages are kinda neutralized in the brain.
If you can see such a clear distinction between L1, L2 and L3, you are probably translating too much.

If you are messing the languages up, it is a good sign. You are neutralizing your new language well. It is only that your "L(n-1)" might not be as solid as you think it was.

Serge Wrote:From what I have observed in myself and other people, there seem to be two areas in our mind: one is reserved for 'Native' and the other one for 'Foreign'.

Foreign languages that we know really well seem to cross over into the 'Native' section and are no longer being confused with any others, or they take a place of their own, if you will.
(...)

This, exactly. For me, 'native' is french and english, foreign is japanese, german and spanish. Since I'm focused on learning japanese, it was a struggle when I went to Germany and Spain, as japanese words would always spring in the few clumsy sentences I managed to utter.

mentat_kgs Wrote:I feel like there are not really L1, L2 and L3. There is only one big L. The languages are kinda neutralized in the brain.
If you can see such a clear distinction between L1, L2 and L3, you are probably translating too much.

I was going to disagree, but I think it's just that I had misunderstood what you meant. In a way, I do feel a distinction between english and french and my attitude when using them is different, though that may be because the cultures are different (I don't make the same kind of jokes). However, I do feel natural in both languages. And when working, i.e. thinking and writing things on paper, I use a mix of both. This is because the papers I read are mostly in english, but the mix of french and english I use in my drafts seems to be quite random: sometimes I start in french and then I write in english, and sometimes it goes the other way. In this sense, because both languages feel natural, I agree with you that the distinction between them is not so clear. Though, I may have misunderstood you anyway.




And now I can't resist being a little childish, I apologize if this causes any thread derail.

Tobberoth Wrote:If I'm an exception to that rule, the rule obviously isn't true, so it's false.

Indeed, at least if rules must be true or false.

In another thread, you said:

Tobberoth Wrote:You won't be able to say a sentence fluently on-the-go no matter how many times you've read or listened to similar sentences.

Well, having explained that I'm an exception, I guess this is definitely false.

(...end childish derail)

nyquil Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:If I'm an exception to that rule, the rule obviously isn't true, so it's false.

Indeed, at least if rules must be true or false.

In another thread, you said:

Tobberoth Wrote:You won't be able to say a sentence fluently on-the-go no matter how many times you've read or listened to similar sentences.

Well, having explained that I'm an exception, I guess this is definitely false.

(...end childish derail)

Yes and I'm sorry but I've never seen or heard of anyone who can do something well without ever training it. I'm not going to call you a liar but I'm going to say that if I heard you talk English for the very first time and had a conversation with you, I would probably hear that you've had no training in it. Since we have no proof (a recording of your first ever conversation in English) we have nothing to go on. I have no proof that Japanese hasn't effected my English, so it's certainly in the same boat, just explaining how I can still stand by that quote.

Conversation takes training like everything else. It would be illogical to assume that one can learn something without training it. It's pure deduction. Go to any university and ask students of languages to have conversations in said language with you and you will almost always be taken aback by how hilariously bad they are at it compared to people who study in the countries of said languages (since one is forced to use the language in conversation there).

So yeah, you claim your an exception to the rule I stated and I have to protect it by saying it's a matter of definition, maybe what you define as fluent first conversations would not be defined as fluent by me, et cetera.

(Of course, the whole notion that you lived in the states makes a HUGE difference. I'm talking about people like Americans who study Japanese for a year and goes to Japan and expect to speak it fluently without ever having a single conversation in it.)

From a scientific point of view, I am really glad, that neurolinguistics do a little more than only saying: " I have strong feeling of a L1 and L2 in my brain.. so this must be the way the brain works. Especially because two friends of mine have the same feeling. There is no alternative."

thorstenu Wrote:From a scientific point of view, I am really glad, that neurolinguistics do a little more than only saying: " I have strong feeling of a L1 and L2 in my brain.. so this must be the way the brain works. Especially because two friends of mine have the same feeling. There is no alternative."

All form of science works like that though, to a certain degree. You have some empirical knowledge which you use to make a hypothesis. The act of induction. By testing the hypothesis, you get a theory. The theory is then tested, improved or thrown away. It is generally not acceptable when a theory claims that there are alternatives, a theory should explain how something works as simply as possible with as few exceptions as possible, while still being fruitful and consequent. Especially such a "hard" science as neurolinguistics where we are interested in how the brain neurologically and biologically controls our language. In such a science, we want facts, not interpretations.