Hey, I have a question.

What is the difference between 入る（はいる） and 入る（いる）?

I could not find 入る（いる） in yahoo japan 和英 dictionary, nor example sentences.

mentat_kgs Wrote:Hey, I have a question.

What is the difference between 入る（はいる） and 入る（いる）?

I could not find 入る（いる） in yahoo japan 和英 dictionary, nor example sentences.

According to sanseido, いる is just a synonym to はいる. The only example sentence i can think of where いる is used is 気に入り which means favorite.

It's very confusing to me too, the worst part is telling which way to read the damn thing in a sentence. You can find lots of special phrases which use 入る　（いる） by simply searching 入る in WWWJDIC. Many of those special phrases in turn have example sentences on WWWJDIC, of course, the usual warnings apply about using the Tanaka Corpus.

To make matters worse, the potential form ("to be able to enter") of 入る　（はいる） is... you guessed it... 入れる　（はいれる）, indistinguishable in writing from 入れる　（いれる）!!

snispilbor Wrote:It's very confusing to me too, the worst part is telling which way to read the damn thing in a sentence. You can find lots of special phrases which use 入る　（いる） by simply searching 入る in WWWJDIC. Many of those special phrases in turn have example sentences on WWWJDIC, of course, the usual warnings apply about using the Tanaka Corpus.

To make matters worse, the potential form ("to be able to enter") of 入る　（はいる） is... you guessed it... 入れる　（はいれる）, indistinguishable in writing from 入れる　（いれる）!!

And 入れる (いれる) is the transitive "form" of はいる, completely different from いる.

Toberoth, well, you know how are sinonims. They have a close meaning, but they have diferent usages.

http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF-8...5527100000

http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?p=%E3%81%...&dname=0ss

After seeing this I'm kinda deciding that はいる is for inanimated and いる is for animated things, when the animated thing has the intention to enter into something (the same way as 居る and 在る).

mentat_kgs Wrote:Toberoth, well, you know how are sinonims. They have a close meaning, but they have diferent usages.

http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF-8...5527100000

http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?p=%E3%81%...&dname=0ss

After seeing this I'm kinda deciding that はいる is for inanimated and いる is for animated things, when the animated thing has the intention to enter into something (the same way as 居る and 在る).

That doesn't work. If you're saying "I entered my friends house" you say 友達の家に入った, and you're still animated.

Personally, I will go ask my japanese neighbours on sunday, hopefully they can explain the difference.

EDIT: What I did note from your links however is that はいる is considered the opposite of 出る, while いる is not.

Yeah, that's true. Please do that. I'd be thankful.
Your first post already covers one of the meanings:

他の動詞の下に付いて複合動詞をつくる。

My guess is that if something is being put in by something else, it's iru, but when the thing goes in by itself it's hairu.

So if I put sugar in my tea, it's iru. If I put something in my bag, iru.

If I go in a door, it's hairu. Animate or inanimate is not the issue.

Then what about 日の入り and 日の出？ The sun is moving itself, but it's ひのいり.

I get what phauna means. Pretty, about the sun and the moon, they seem to be an exception:

http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?p=%E3%81%...&dname=0ss

【2】 物などが内側に移動する。また、物の内部に何かが生ずる。
［2］ 太陽・月が没する。

Phaunas idea doesn't really work either, that would be the difference between 入る (hairu) and 入れる (ireru) (jidoushi and tadoushi).

Besides, one of mentats links clearly states the definition 人などが、ある建物・区画の中に移動する。はいる。which is clearly the same usage as 入る (hairu).

入る「はいる」　 and 入れる「いれる」 are transitivity pairs.

入れる is the transitive, and 入る is the intransitive.

Transitive verbs require a direct subject and one or more objects.[e.g. I give the book to Jimmy]

Intransitive verbs don't need an object [e.g. I sleep. You can't 'sleep' something]
An example:

The class starts / The teacher starts the class.

The book falls / The man drops the book.

Of course, this does nothing to clear up 入る「いる」, as I know nothing about that verb =/

I've been wondering this too, but in all honesty I'm not really concerned about a rule or anything. I just read a lot with furigana and I'm sure I'll get a feel for it.

Tobberoth Wrote:Phaunas idea doesn't really work either, that would be the difference between 入る (hairu) and 入れる (ireru) (jidoushi and tadoushi).

This doesnt necessarily invalidate phaunas' idea. The difference with いれる and いる is the actor. With いれる, the actor is the person doing the putting, with いる the actor is the thing being put. In fact I think いれる lends support to Phaunas' theory, because if Phaunas is right, then the intransitive partner of いれる is not はいる at all but rather いる, which is consistent with the fact that transitive-intransitive pairs always (almost always?) use the same reading for the kanji.

Perhaps god makes the sun rise, or gravity? It's just a theory guys, deriving from my non-learning of grammar and just learning stuff from context. From context I get this feeling.

According to my 教頭先生 here at school, the meanings are "全く同じ".

As an example, she pointed out the fact that you read 入り口 「イリグチ」rather than 「ハイリグチ」.

I doubt there is any particular pattern besides the fact that uses of one or the other are more typical in certain phrases.

Did anybody think to search Tae Kim's forum? Most Japanese questions like this have been answered there.

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/forum/vie...hp?id=1902

Asked a friend:

Quote:GrammaticalにRuleやPrincipleはないです。

One-BY-Oneのケースに当たって覚えてください。

「いる」と読ませるケースが多いように思います。

たとえば
入り口（いりぐち）＝Entrance
気が滅入る（きがめいる）＝Feel depressed
大入り満員（おおいりまんいん）＝Packed-Out or crowded
収入の入りと出（しゅうにゅうのいりとで）

つまり、入る（はいる）というように動詞（Verb）として使うときのみ「ハイル」と読みます。

I had the same feeling as phauna about the difference. But I'm not totally sure at the moment.

wrightak Wrote:Asked a friend:

Quote:GrammaticalにRuleやPrincipleはないです。

One-BY-Oneのケースに当たって覚えてください。

「いる」と読ませるケースが多いように思います。

たとえば
入り口（いりぐち）＝Entrance
気が滅入る（きがめいる）＝Feel depressed
大入り満員（おおいりまんいん）＝Packed-Out or crowded
収入の入りと出（しゅうにゅうのいりとで）

つまり、入る（はいる）というように動詞（Verb）として使うときのみ「ハイル」と読みます。

Seems like Wrightaks friend is on the same track as me, that they are the same but are used in different situations.

Snispilbor:
If iru is the same as ireru but a different actor, what would be the use of irerareru? (受身形 of ireru) which one can see used a lot.

I always thought they are the same but "hairu" is in common usage and "iru" is just sort of clinging onto life in phrases and expressions that would now sound awkward if you said "hairu." Sort of like how "merry" would have fallen out of usage entirely if not for the phrase "Merry Christmas." Can you say "Happy Christmas" and it mean the same thing? Yes, but you'd sound funny.

PrettyKitty Wrote:I always thought they are the same but "hairu" is in common usage and "iru" is just sort of clinging onto life in phrases and expressions that would now sound awkward if you said "hairu." Sort of like how "merry" would have fallen out of usage entirely if not for the phrase "Merry Christmas." Can you say "Happy Christmas" and it mean the same thing? Yes, but you'd sound funny.

Exactly! There's a lot of things like this in Japanese, so it would hardly be unheard of.

(For people who want examples, I recommend looking up 惨憺 in a dictionary and ask asking oneself what form of word it is)

Cheating: It's a taru-adjective. If you can find more than 5 taru-adjectives still used in Japanese, I'm very impressed, it's one of those things which is just clinging on and really shouldn't be part of modern japanese.