phauna Wrote:Personally I didn't and don't believe the usefulness of listening to native audio for comprehension from the beginning. For this reason and another big one, I didn't listen very much to audio, and have just done cards for about ten months. I'm around the 6000 number that Khatzu says he had, and even with a possibly more varied and better stocked one since it's mostly from JFE, KO, and real sources. However I feel lately that the audio part is extremely important to the method and I don't feel near fluent.

I still don't think it would have helped to listen all the time to unintelligible audio from the start, rather, the more knowledge you have in your head initially, the more you are going to benefit from audio. However there is also no line where it would have been appropriate to start so the best perhaps would have been to listen to graded audio from the start. The problem is finding this audio. So AJATT method in this respect is right and wrong, graded audio would be better, but it's hard to get, so anything is better than nothing.

So lately I can say a lot of things, I can read very well for that amount of time and I can write if I need to. However I can't understand spoken normal Japanese, even gist wise, this skill is really lagging. If I can't hear the question, then I can't respond. I can't really remedy this situation quickly as I'm still not in a position to listen to Japanese all day. However, from my own experience, I advise not to wait to start audio, even if you are going to be wasting a lot of time listening to things you don't understand and don't benefit from. The habit is more important.

You should measure by hours spent, not sentences. Khatzu may have had only around 7000 sentences, but he avoided English like the devil (and by extension, learner's sources). Because of this, he had massive amounts of hours of reading and listening to Japanese. The sentences came after the fact, not as a goal.

Mentat's audio comprehension didn't get good until he started listening to the shows he watched over and over (He loves Tiger and Dragon like a mad man, to name one) even though he sucked at listening in the beginning. He listened to them a lot, and now he's good at listening. Because listening to spoken Japanese is more than just understanding the grammar and words. You build up your comprehension by slowly putting the pieces in like a puzzle, it will be hard until you can see the overall picture.

It's like using a monolingual dictionary. I sucked when I started, now I'm awesome at using it. I suck right now at reading manga, but I read everyday all day, and I expect it to improve the more I read.

Whether or not you're good at it at first, do it anyway. There is no graded path and there is no shortcut. You get good at doing something by doing it. You get good by sucking a lot at first.

Phauna, I agree with your post completely. In particular, I think a person has to have internalized a fair amount of grammar points before being able to benefit from audio that is not specifically geared towards beginners.

I hope I'm at the level where I can learn from miscellanious entertainment audio, but I guess I won't know for sure until I've tried it out for a while.

Alyks, how are you so confident that there are no shortcuts or at least less time-consuming routes? As far as graded paths, aren't those what Japanesepod and Iknow seem to be?

Tell me how it goes when you're finished with Japanesepod and you start trying to listen to real sources. Genuine curiosity, not criticism.

iKnow has far too much English for me.

How much English is too much?

I have to write a disclaimer here.

It was the 7th episode of the second season of a shoujo anime: nodame cantabile.
I was already confortable with the vocabulary used in the series.
Btw, shoujo anime/manga are the easiest to understand.

And I really think that the uninteligible audio really helped.
Maybe it worked because was allways clear to me that my japanese understanding was really bad and that I had to do much more work to get it right.

I still have some trouble to understand Tiger and Dragon, there is much vocabulary that I have still not met in my sentences, but the chit chat, even in yakuza slang, goes ok. I listened to each episode more than 10 times each.

alyks Wrote:You should measure by hours spent, not sentences. Khatzu may have had only around 7000 sentences, but he avoided English like the devil (and by extension, learner's sources). Because of this, he had massive amounts of hours of reading and listening to Japanese. The sentences came after the fact, not as a goal.

My point was that my time was skewed towards sentences and reading and away from audio sources. So I read pretty well, I have a large passive vocabulary, reading-wise, but I think I need more balance with audio to consolidate things. It's not like I'm not spending hours doing Japanese stuff, it's that the mix of stuff is also important. I can read, write and speak, but not listen, and listening is important, whereas writing is not so important.

Khatzu also had a job and stuff, I mean, I don't really have that. I look after my daughter and she is the main reason I can't listen to Japanese all the time, she needs her hours of input to learn English. At her age she has the priority and I get by watching a movie or drama every now and then and some headphone use. Also, I can't refuse to speak to her in English throughout the day. However, I'm free to read all day, do sentences all day if we are just sitting at home or something. So I probably have more time than Khatzu did.

My point, through my experience, is that audio should be at least fifty-fifty with sentences and reading. Sentences and reading are kind of the same really.

phauna Wrote:My point, through my experience, is that audio should be at least fifty-fifty with sentences and reading. Sentences and reading are kind of the same really.

Are you implying that listening environment is 50% of the process? Such that on a daily basis of study, half of your time should be spent on listening and the other half sentences/reading?

That will make it extremely hard to rack up your listening hours (10,000) if you're following the AJATT method. Khatz stresses that the listening environment be turned on at all times, at least so that during the times where you can't listen to it, you've already done some extra credit in the sense.

I've been following strictly the listening environment for about 3 months when I first started the method. I have school and work, but I'm fortunate to get away with listening to Japanese in some classes and even work, so my Japanese is on nearly 18-24 hours (approx. 1100-1440 total) a day (sometimes my headphones fall off during sleep).

After 3 months of a strict listening environment, I'd say the pay off is slow, but what little it gives me at an interval of time, keeps me happy and motivated until I acquire another piece of that pay off. One thing I noticed that is new to me recently is that I'm starting to build a "recall" where I can repeat a phrase or sentence right after I just heard it.

Looking back at how diligently I've spent my time listening (and also how easy it was doing it), and the fact that I've been only doing it for 3 months gets me excited for what the new boundaries I'll hit when it doubles after 6 months, and even a year after that!

I've only been doing the sentence method for about 2 weeks now, (276 cards so far) so my vocabulary is limited: however, my listening is to the ability where I can hear words that I don't know yet, so it's relatively easy for me to hear the word, look it up, and get a clarified reading and meaning right away. I just don't think I would have that ability if I didn't keep my listening environment on while doing PHASE 1: RTK1.

This is one of my first posts outside the "Finish RTK, Congratulate me" thread, but I really like this site. Very nice and generous people here!

I have to say that I am definitely a big proprietor of the whole listening to audio thing, even if you don't understand it. Let me give an example of how it helped.

My experience with Japanese was two years of University classes with, unfortunately, limited exposure outside of class. It was only after I started getting sick of my super slow progress that I began to search for other methods to learn by myself (I know, I was an idiot. I regret it constantly). However, I would say at this point my vocab was about... 700-1000 words. I probably could have passed JLPT 3 (never tried). Either way, listening to Japanese was a really, really hard thing for me. I would hear it, and it would mostly sound like a jumbled mess.

So, what I did is I listened to what was said on AJATT, and I started listening to audio like a fiend. I brought Shrek, Harry Potter, Pirates of the Carribean, etc in Japanese, ripping the audio and throwing it on my iPod. I listening to Japanese rap like it was going out of style. I did this obsessively for the whole summer, listening to it perhaps 18-19 hours a day.

When I came back for the next semester, I was incredibly surprised how much it had helped! I didn't even really do that much looking up. My brain just seemed to have worked out how to listen, so I could actually break up sentences as they were speaking. Now, whenever the teacher spoke in Japanese, or whenever I was listening to my friends, it was incredibly easy to hear what they were saying, even if I didn't know the words. You know how in English we can hear someone say something and immediately be able to repeat it, word for word? This was the same thing. I could do that now. It was invaluable for picking up words and being able to actually USE my vocabulary.

So, I am going to say listening to Japanese, even if it is unintelligible at the time, is extremely useful! Don't ever underestimate it.

In my opinion, if you're unable to read and understand, without a dictionary, the transcript of an audio recording, there's little to no value in listening to it. Your time would be better spent trying to making sense of the transcript. [For the anime fans out there, that would mean read, and understand, the original manga/novel first, then watch the anime.]

Listening to massive hours of gibberish may work, but IT IS brute force.
Just like writing each kanji a million times.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:So, what I did is I listened to what was said on AJATT, and I started listening to audio like a fiend. I brought Shrek, Harry Potter, Pirates of the Carribean, etc in Japanese, ripping the audio and throwing it on my iPod. I listening to Japanese rap like it was going out of style. I did this obsessively for the whole summer, listening to it perhaps 18-19 hours a day.

When I came back for the next semester, I was incredibly surprised how much it had helped! I didn't even really do that much looking up. My brain just seemed to have worked out how to listen, so I could actually break up sentences as they were speaking. Now, whenever the teacher spoke in Japanese, or whenever I was listening to my friends, it was incredibly easy to hear what they were saying, even if I didn't know the words. You know how in English we can hear someone say something and immediately be able to repeat it, word for word? This was the same thing. I could do that now. It was invaluable for picking up words and being able to actually USE my vocabulary.

So, I am going to say listening to Japanese, even if it is unintelligible at the time, is extremely useful! Don't ever underestimate it.

I think your post complimented mine. Thanks! And yeah, I'm listening to Japanese hip-hop like it's going out of style as well (Even now!). I always go for the faster music since it's more closer to the natural speed of the language. There's also a lot of other stuff that I listen to like News podcasts (like the speed-talking ones) and ripping movies and shows with lots of dialogue.

iSoron Wrote:In my opinion, if you're unable to read and understand, without a dictionary, the transcript of an audio recording, there's little to no value in listening to it. Your time would be better spent trying to making sense of the transcript. [For the anime fans out there, that would mean read, and understand, the original manga/novel first, then watch the anime.]

Listening to massive hours of gibberish may work, but IT IS brute force.
Just like writing each kanji a million times.

I have to disagree with you, sir. There is always value in listening; the payoff isn't clear in the beginning, but it's forever growing at a slow pace in the background. I understand what you're trying to say, but didn't you realize that those two things can both be done at once? And I wouldn't compare writing to listening as one is output, the latter input. You don't have to do anything for listening except have it on. Once that baby is on, you can go about your day doing whatever you want. You can even attempt to make sense of that transcript with it on, and get the best of both worlds.

I think learning, as you said, with the added benefit of listening is key because when you learn the transcript completely, how well will you hear it if you lack the time spent listening to real japanese? I guess what I'm trying to say is that one is good, but you can't beat both at the same time.

I hear a lot of stories (even on this site) of people who have a profound vocabulary and understanding, but have very weak listening comprehension which hinders them being able to comprehend what others Japanese speakers have to say. And honestly, whenever the day comes that I reach their level of understanding (and they have ascended further and probably have sorted out that listening problem by getting some listening input), I don't think I'll have the same problem. So if you really believe that listening isn't worth it in the beginning while it's jibberish to many, then at one point would you draw the line and consider it worthwhile?

KREVA Wrote:I hear a lot of stories (even on this site) of people who have a profound vocabulary and understanding, but have very weak listening comprehension which hinders them being able to comprehend what others Japanese speakers have to say. And honestly, whenever the day comes that I reach their level of understanding (and they have ascended further and probably have sorted out that listening problem by getting some listening input), I don't think I'll have the same problem. So if you really believe that listening isn't worth it in the beginning while it's jibberish to many, then at one point would you draw the line and consider it worthwhile?

That somewhat describes me.

Oddly enough, I can more or less say what I want -- and think to my self in Japanese easily -- but I have a hard time understanding spoken Japanese at a more than intermediate level.

I actually think it's more of a vocabulary problem, cause I can _think_ fluidly -- and I don't have trouble understanding simpler sentences, even at very fast speeds.

Dragg Wrote:As far as listening, I can understand very little. Just about every Japanese show or movie sounds like a blizzard of words still. I can make out fragments but sometimes I even miss the general idea of what is happening.
...
Mentat, sorry I missed your post directed towards me. Currently, I listen to only about a half hour to an hour of raw audio a day.

phauna Wrote:Personally I didn't and don't believe the usefulness of listening to native audio for comprehension from the beginning.
...
However I feel lately that the audio part is extremely important to the method and I don't feel near fluent.

playadom Wrote:

KREVA Wrote:I hear a lot of stories (even on this site) of people who have a profound vocabulary and understanding, but have very weak listening comprehension which hinders them being able to comprehend what others Japanese speakers have to say. ...

That somewhat describes me.

Oddly enough, I can more or less say what I want -- and think to my self in Japanese easily -- but I have a hard time understanding spoken Japanese at a more than intermediate level.

vosmiura Wrote:...but I do find that when watching dramas, by rewinding some segments over & over, I can pick up more each time.

mentat_kgs Wrote:I'm for 2 months already only watching anime without subs. About 2-3 episodes/day. In the beggining, I could not understand much, but for instance, yesterday, I watched the episode 07 of nodame cantabile pari hen and I think I could understand 99% of it.

Nukemarine Wrote:AJATT made a tip way back to rip audio from movies, break it up in 3:30 minutes, and play it on random.
...
The gibberish decreases. I need to do this with more shows now.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:...I did this obsessively for the whole summer, listening to it perhaps 18-19 hours a day.
...
When I came back for the next semester, I was incredibly surprised how much it had helped! I didn't even really do that much looking up. My brain just seemed to have worked out how to listen, so I could actually break up sentences as they were speaking.

KREVA Wrote:...so my Japanese is on nearly 18-24 hours (approx. 1100-1440 total) a day (sometimes my headphones fall off during sleep).

After 3 months of a strict listening environment, I'd say the pay off is slow, but what little it gives me at an interval of time, keeps me happy and motivated until I acquire another piece of that pay off. One thing I noticed that is new to me recently is that I'm starting to build a "recall" where I can repeat a phrase or sentence right after I just heard it.

uberstuber Wrote:...at about 5000 sentences and an average of about 10 hours of 'gibberish' a day, I can understand about 97% of brand new generic television shows/drama. (I still have some trouble with news/some other stuff, working on that).

I dunno about you guys, but I'm noticing a pattern.

KREVA Wrote:I have to disagree with you, sir.

We all disagree somewhere.

Quote:I understand what you're trying to say, but didn't you realize that those two things can both be done at once?

You can't analyze spoken text as you analyze written text. It's way too fast, and too fuzzy. You have no time to check a dictionary, for example. You do can study the text first, and then listen do the audio, but, well, that's what I recommended in the previous post.

Quote:And I wouldn't compare writing to listening as one is output, the latter input. You don't have to do anything for listening except have it on.

That's why I never mentioned writing anything.

Quote:So if you really believe that listening isn't worth it in the beginning while it's jibberish to many, then at one point would you draw the line and consider it worthwhile?

Yes. When you can read the transcripts, but you can't understand the audio, you've crossed the line. Although, I must say, that never happened to me with Japanese, as it used to happen, a lot, with English.

I don't understand what the big objection is to listening to audio all the time. There's no reason you have to limit your listening time to 50/50 with sentences. When you're working on sentences, throw on some audio. Carry around a portable music device when you go places. Its really not that hard. Even if you think it doesn't help (and I believe it does immensely), it can't hurt you.

iSoron Wrote:Listening to massive hours of gibberish may work, but IT IS brute force.

Do you have a better option? And it's definitely not as mind taxing as brute forcing kanji.
To a certain extent, learning something as massive as a language requires 'brute force'ing reading and listening skills. No amount of graded readers will get you to fluency; you will have to listen to many hours of natural speed Japanese. No reason not to start now, or at least in the times you aren't listening to graded readers.

Also, it's not just gibberish. Surely you know enough to hear short phrases quite often, it gets you used to the flow of the language, makes your word parsing skill better, &c, &c, &c.

Having done 'mostly Japanese most of the time' for about a year now (I started jlpt4 level experience), at about 5000 sentences and an average of about 10 hours of 'gibberish' a day, I can understand about 97% of brand new generic television shows/drama. (I still have some trouble with news/some other stuff, working on that).
This absolutely floors me every time I watch something new, and to me, its proof enough that this stuff works very well.

iSoron Wrote:You can't analyze spoken text as you analyze written text. It's way too fast, and too fuzzy. You have no time to check a dictionary, for example. You do can study the text first, and then listen do the audio, but, well, that's what I recommended in the previous post.

Perhaps some people cannot actively listen to it while analyzing text, but you will hear it if it is on.

Quote:That's why I never mentioned writing anything.

I'm pretty sure you did. Read the last sentence in your previous post.

Quote:Yes. When you can read the transcripts, but you can't understand the audio, you've crossed the line. Although, I must say, that never happened to me with Japanese, as it used to happen, a lot, with English.

It's still not making much sense to me.

I just do both, and I receive benefits over time from both.
The most important thing for me is that it's fun; i like doing both, so that will be a part of my method until I cross the finish line.

Now that I think about it, whether it is listening or reading, you're getting input and so long as you continue doing it, you will grow in both categories over time.

One thing you have to be aware of is that "jibberish" is merely a phase. You have to give your mind some time to adjust to all of these foreign sounds that it's hearing. It's kind of like magic where you wake up one day and pop the Japanese back in (if you don't sleep with it on; i do) and you start to pick up stuff and less of it sounding like it's going over your head. Even the things you don't now yet are becoming clear because you've reached a level where you can become more or less aware of the limited number of Japanese sounds that you hear, and you can look those new words up.

The problem with listening is that the payoff is not immediate. It is not like you read a sentence, look up the words you don't know, then suddenly you can understand a sentence where you couldn't before. That is why reading can be more gratifying. But for listening, the payoff takes weeks/months, but what you are learning is all the little things you can't describe, the things that really bind together all your current knowledge and propel you to understanding more in the future.

Once I did RTK I started reading and I could feel my ability growing by leaps and bounds. Now finally, I am confident enough to start listening and watching things, and slowly, but in a better way I think, my ability is getting higher and higher.

Alyks, there is a pattern to what you quoted, but you also left out a lot of important facts. For example, I had tried the all-audio-all-the-time in the past; the reason why I lowered to the hour a day was because I didn't feel like I was getting results. But my grammar, vocab, etc. were a lot weaker then.

In contrast, I had almost immediate results from systematic learning methods which were of quality but emphasized the verbal aspect less or simply ignored it. That is why I am now turning back to the audio: It was a huge gap in my learning.

To me, the common pattern is that the constant audio seemed most benefical to those who had at least some graded exposure to Japanese in order to learn the most basic foundations in the language first. For example, Mentat had started out with Pimsleur and a bit of Japanesepod. Someone else who extolled the benefits of constant listening had previously taken two years of college-level Japanese.

I have switched my position somewhat based on the contents of these various posts. I can now see that constant listening is of a larger benefit to those who have reached a certain level; definitely more useful than I had previously thought. However, the question remains as to whether or not graded systems that include audio like Iknow or Japanesepod are more efficient in terms of achieving a goal in a shorter time, even if they are more boring or use more English.

A few posts back, KREVA stated his headphones sometimes fall off during sleep while claiming he's listening to japanese 24 hours a day.

Let me get this straight KREVA: You seriously think you're learning Japanese because you listen to Japanese audio while you sleep?

KREVA Wrote:Are you implying that listening environment is 50% of the process? Such that on a daily basis of study, half of your time should be spent on listening and the other half sentences/reading?

That will make it extremely hard to rack up your listening hours (10,000) if you're following the AJATT method. Khatz stresses that the listening environment be turned on at all times, at least so that during the times where you can't listen to it, you've already done some extra credit in the sense.

Here is the problem, people blindly accepting something without thinking about it. Khatzu says something and you all accept it immediately. He has lots of nice ideas but also some weird ones.

For example, listening while you are asleep will not do anything, there have been many studies totally debunking subliminal learning in this way. So these hours don't count. It may feel like you are being hardcore but if it has no effect, then there is no point to do it.

Doing sentence while listening to Japanese audio is another hellish creation which is counter-productive. I find that I don't really pronounce things properly, I skim meanings, and when adding new cards they are harder to remember initially if I have some sort of audio on in the background. To me it is obvious that doing two things at once with the same part of your brain is pretty ineffective. This is not like jogging and listening to Japanese, this is trying to parse text while trying to parse audio. They interfere with each other, or you must block one out to such an extent that it is not going to have much effect anyway. So I can't count hours of audio that are heard while reading or doing sentences.

So listening is important, very important, but the above examples show why you cannot have twenty four hours of useful, effective listening. Nor can you somehow gain hours of listening while doing something else in Japanese. Not all your listening has to be active, but doing two language tasks at once is not helping.

Actually I have a great example. I've been doing French lately, and I thought in my AJATT scheme of things that I should perhaps listen to it a lot at first. I had an idea to listen to French while doing Japanese sentences, or reading in Japanese. Now, according to AJATT, this should be fine and good, you can magically parse two things at once. However I think most people hearing this idea would feel somewhat apprehensive about it to say the least. My question is, why should doing audio and text in one language be different from doing it in two languages at once? Khatzu says you can parse it, it's doing it's thing in the back of your brain or whatever. I'm not sure that I agree.

KREVA Wrote:One thing you have to be aware of is that "jibberish" is merely a phase. You have to give your mind some time to adjust to all of these foreign sounds that it's hearing.

Indeed. And how much Japanese audio do you have to listen to until you know all the Japanese sounds? 1 hour? 10? Maybe, but certainly not more than that. After that, it's all about being fast enough to connect your vocabulary and grammatical knowledge and understand something fast enough. Hell, Dattebayo (the fansubbing group) is proof that even if you have listened to japanese audio for several 100 of hours, you WILL make mistakes on even japanese sounds, simply because you don't have the vocabulary and grammatical knowledge. (I'm talking about their incorrect karaoke of the latest Bleach ending where the singer sings "yureru" and dattebayo has transcripted and traslated it as "fureru".)

Recognizing sounds is important, but the most important part is knowing the vocabulary and grammar, that's what gives you the context to understand and fill in the parts you can't hear. It's also why listening to "jibberish" is useless. Even if you train at hearing sounds, it won't let you parse anything because you don't have the basis to parse anything on.

Tobberoth Wrote:A few posts back, KREVA stated his headphones somtimes fall off during sleep while claiming he's listening to japanese 24 hours a day.

Let me get this straight KREVA: You seriously think you're learning Japanese because you listen to Japanese audio while you sleep?

Yep. I said that, but I also said "sometimes" which means that occasionally I can hit that full 24 hours, although my headphones would have to not fall off during my sleep for such a thing to happen. But in other cases to assure I'm getting some input at night, I use speakers instead of headphones.

Learn? No. Hear? Yes, seriously.

KREVA Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:A few posts back, KREVA stated his headphones somtimes fall off during sleep while claiming he's listening to japanese 24 hours a day.

Let me get this straight KREVA: You seriously think you're learning Japanese because you listen to Japanese audio while you sleep?

Yep. I said that, but I also said "sometimes" which means that occasionally I can hit that full 24 hours, although my headphones would have to not fall off during my sleep for such a thing to happen. But in other cases to assure I'm getting some input at night, I use speakers instead of headphones.

Learn? No. Hear? Yes, seriously.

I hope you realize that your sleep is the time when your brain takes a rest. It is in control of your dreams during REM sleep, but safe to say, it does not register audio playing in your ears. If it did, you would be extremely tired all the time because your brain would be processing things when it's supposed to rest.

I mean, you say you hear, not learn. What's the point? You aren't processing it. You aren't learning anything at all. You simply have audio playing while your brain isn't processing or even registering it.

Another AJATT fanatic who read what Khazu says and take it as law. "Japanese all the time" isn't to be taken literally. Listening to Japanese 24 hours a day won't make you good at Japanese faster than someone who listen to Japanese activly 10 hours a day or even 5.

Granted, thinking that listening while asleep will help you is a bit misinformed, Khatzu himself does not claim that's why you should do it.

And stop badmouthing AJATT. I'm an AJATT fanatic and proud of it. Even if the average guy does go up and blindly accept everything he says, that's still the method that got Khatzu fluent in 18 months. By no means is it bad.