How about instead of citing "science" as some vague authority on the subject, you quote us a peer-reviewed research paper or actual studies done?

Mentat, Mcjon01, and QuackingShoe already have given us quite a bit into the current theories of language acquisition, and I'm going to agree with them until somebody can give us to the contrary.

Honestly, I'd take any studies dealing with how the brain works that come out before the mid 2020s with a grain of salt. I mean, we've come a long way, sure, but we simply aren't able to map the brain with enough resolution to create a definitive model of what's going on in there. It's like we're groping around in a dimly lit room; we can kind of make out the main features, but that's no help when you're trying to figure out the color of the sheets on the bed.

mentat_kgs Wrote:Yup, not only my friends. Me too. Half of the english I heard was sung by Lucca Turulli and Hansi Kursch, maybe that's why I sound like a pirate when talking english. But hey! At least I dont have the peculiar "latino" accent!

Erm, just for clarification, Luca Turulli is italian and Hansi is german.
And I spent my life reading internet/scientific english, not shakespeare.
My sources were bad.

Btw, my output is much better than the output of my friends who took classes.

Now I'm watching My Boss My Hero and Tiger & Dragon.
I'm desperate to pick up some Yakuza slang. Hurray!

I feel there is no need to choose one over the other.

I think AJATT is right in saying that to be fluent in speaking naturally, immersion is the right way to go.

However, having done RevTK, I am 100% sure that RevTK is faster than any Kanji immersion I can think of...

Why choose one or the other? Use what works for you! After all, it's well accepted that different people have different preferential modes of learning (listening vs watching, active vs passive, textbook/systematic vs immersion, etc...) and we even switch those preferences ourselves, once in a while.

BTW, I'm sure Heisig does not deny that baby's brains are like sponges. But the trick is, if you are not a child, use what works for adults as an advantage. That was one of the sources of his inspiration behind RTK - take advantage of known English keywords and adult imaginative memory to sponge up those Kanji...

Kanji immersion also works - but may take a decade or more to get the basics.

Saw these videos a few days a ago. Good stuff. Katz is the man.

I think as adults we have learned to filter things that don't help us in daily life. For example, we don't listen for sounds that aren't in our native language because if we did, it would make hearing the language more difficult. In that sense, babies just listen with no preconceptions, which is an advantage. However, the advantage as an adult is that someone can tell us "listen to the way such-and-such sound is made in Japanese," and then we can hear it.

Another thing I notice is that people with confidence pick things up faster than others. I am in a professional school where people have to learn lots of different things very quickly, and the loudest, most obnoxious, rude, down-right full-of-himself guy is actually the fastest learner in many ways. Just because he thinks he is better than everyone else, suddenly he can do the work better than everyone else. I would never be his friend, but damn if he isn't good at this stuff (dentistry). On the other hand, babies have no reason not to be confident, so they don't impose that restraint on themselves.

His analogy with the runner not getting good on race day is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. He obviously never thought out what he was trying to say.

Runners get good at running by.. running a lot and getting better each time. They don't just look at people run a lot until they one day know enough about running to be able to get a gold medal themselves. Thus his analogy says the exact opposite of what he was trying to say (which was also dumb - that you don't need to bother with speaking practice because it's useless as study).

I know plenty of people who can probably read Japanese better than me, but can't hold a conversation to save their lives. Speaking is a skill that doesn't come for free with knowledge of vocab and grammar, it must be specifically trained as well.

It was also kind of odd how he bragged about his system for 30 minutes and yet didn't speak a word of Japanese through the whole thing.

Jarvik7 Wrote:His analogy with the runner not getting good on race day is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. He obviously never thought out what he was trying to say.

Runners get good at running by.. running a lot and getting better each time. They don't just look at people run a lot until they one day know enough about running to be able to get a gold medal themselves. Thus his analogy says the exact opposite of what he was trying to say (which was also dumb - that you don't need to bother with speaking practice because it's useless as study).

I know plenty of people who can probably read Japanese better than me, but can't hold a conversation to save their lives. Speaking is a skill that doesn't come for free with knowledge of vocab and grammar, it must be specifically trained as well.

It was also kind of odd how he bragged about his system for 30 minutes and yet didn't speak a word of Japanese through the whole thing.

Really, a spur of the moment analogy about how one does not become great at the competition, but in the practice leading up to it is the stupidest thing you ever heard. "the Google" and "the internets" ranks up there for me. Then you go describe a training technique in running that's not even close to reality (hint: Sprinters get good not just by running, but with diet, some medium distance work, weight lifting, power work.)

Yeah, I wouldn't attach a one to one comparison of learning Japanese (a vague skill) to sprinting (a competitive sport). But I doubt Khatz was doing that either.

As for those that read better than you, but do not speak better than you, how much more have they listened to Japanese than you? Khatz argues the input theory that you just need to listen to Japanese a lot to speak it better. If you read a lot, you get better at writing. So, can you WRITE better than those that read more than you do? If the answer is yes, then you've adding a point against the input theory. Don't confuse the argument.

Plus, Khatz has posted audio blogs (three I believe) if you want to hear him speak Japanese. In addition, he mentions he's disappointed it was all in English (and off the cuff, and that his hair, room, and clothes was a mess). Expect a Japanese video cast later.

Could you maybe link those audioblogs? Preferably one which is from around the time he finished (the 18 months) and before he started to work in Japan. I'm VERY confident he isn't even close to as natural in his Japanese as he claims AND I bet that if he is, the audioblog script was written before hand.

Just like Jarvik said, conversation is a skill which has to be trained independantly, even if you read japanese for 5 hours every day for 3 years, your conversational skills will be bad. Like I wrote in another topic, I know a guy personally who lived in Japan for a year, studying Japanese every day very hard and he still couldn't speak coherently because he spent too little time talking with japanese people. If living in Japan isn't enough immersion for Khaz theory that just input gives you perfect output in the end, nothing is.

I believe the imitating what you hear part, in AJATT, is pretty much practicing your speaking skills.

Many people Wrote:...blah blah blah...AJATT sucks...

I still don't understand why people waste so much time arguing about how good or not good the guy is at Japanese, or the effectiveness of his environment. Does it even matter? He is obviously happy with what he did to learn Japanese. He feels that it was effective enough to warrant sharing. Even if he were to be revealed as a charlatan, would that change anything? I suspect the people who are motivated by what he writes would still be benefiting in some way. Obviously, immersion is not for everyone. I don't have the stamina or drive to be bothered with immersion. Is it necessary for those who don't like it, or who think the guy is full of crap, to rain on the parade of those who love what he says?

dilandau23 Wrote:

Many people Wrote:...blah blah blah...AJATT sucks...

I still don't understand why people waste so much time arguing about how good or not good the guy is at Japanese, or the effectiveness of his environment. Does it even matter? He is obviously happy with what he did to learn Japanese. He feels that it was effective enough to warrant sharing. Even if he were to be revealed as a charlatan, would that change anything? I suspect the people who are motivated by what he writes would still be benefiting in some way. Obviously, immersion is not for everyone. I don't have the stamina or drive to be bothered with immersion. Is it necessary for those who don't like it, or who think the guy is full of crap, to rain on the parade of those who love what he says?

Yes it is. I don't know about you, but during my education, I learned to be critical of things and I consider it a very good trait. Instead of just swallowing what he's saying as perfect truth and then crusading about it like I've seen some people do, I try it myself and ponder and discuss the good and bad parts of his approach. That's how theories improve over time, by people evaluating them. Just being a sheep and following someone else is really nice because you don't have to think for yourself, but I personally think it's a good thing when people argue against Khaz technique, to find the weak spots and improve them.

Also, I do not think mimicking a line is conversation training. The hard part in conversation isn't to pronounce, it's to create creative output really fast in response to what your partner said. This can't be trained by just input, you HAVE to use output to become better and faster at it. That doesn't mean I don't agree that input is way more important since, like Khaz is saying, your passive vocabulary is always much bigger than your active vocabulary. But I find it odd when people claim one shouldn't try output ever until it comes naturally without mistakes... that won't happen, ever.

dilandau23 Wrote:

Many people Wrote:...blah blah blah...AJATT sucks...

I still don't understand why people waste so much time arguing about how good or not good the guy is at Japanese, or the effectiveness of his environment. Does it even matter? He is obviously happy with what he did to learn Japanese. He feels that it was effective enough to warrant sharing. Even if he were to be revealed as a charlatan, would that change anything? I suspect the people who are motivated by what he writes would still be benefiting in some way. Obviously, immersion is not for everyone. I don't have the stamina or drive to be bothered with immersion. Is it necessary for those who don't like it, or who think the guy is full of crap, to rain on the parade of those who love what he says?

Yes, when people are trying to work out the best study methods you have to look at everything critically. It is true it's nice he gets people inspired, but debating stuff he says might help people figure out better ways to study. As long as he advises methods and ways to do things, people should be able to debate them.

EDIT: Dang, posted too slow.

There is constructive-criticism and destructive-criticism. Towards AJATT, I often see much more of the destructive type, not unlike the kinds of criticism I read against RtK. If you think there is a better way, please propose alternatives. Maybe someone else who can't use AJATT can learn from your experience.

Tobberoth Wrote:Could you maybe link those audioblogs? Preferably one which is from around the time he finished (the 18 months) and before he started to work in Japan. I'm VERY confident he isn't even close to as natural in his Japanese as he claims AND I bet that if he is, the audioblog script was written before hand.

Just like Jarvik said, conversation is a skill which has to be trained independantly, even if you read japanese for 5 hours every day for 3 years, your conversational skills will be bad. Like I wrote in another topic, I know a guy personally who lived in Japan for a year, studying Japanese every day very hard and he still couldn't speak coherently because he spent too little time talking with japanese people. If living in Japan isn't enough immersion for Khaz theory that just input gives you perfect output in the end, nothing is.

No, the audio links are recent. However, (assuming you believe him), he did his interview with Sony in Japanese, processed his Visa in Japanese, and a number of other things. Now, that's WITHOUT anything such as: Japanese college credits or JLPT anything. Just his knowledge of Japanese and his technical abilities (programming). So, his writing, reading, speaking and listening abilities were at such a level, that he needed nothing in the form of certifications to prove his Japanese abilities to work for a Japanese company. Take from that what you will.

As for conversation skills, I guess I'm like your friend. I've been studying pretty hard since January (fell off the wagon a couple months here or there due to, well, having to babysit 30 people now and again). My conversation skills suck, my ability to listen suck (all this in my opinion). That's with "living in Japan" for 2 years (if you consider living on a ship in a US Navy base as living in Japan). Yeah, I basically feel like I'm not where I should be after 13 months. I'm not blaming the advice given on AJATT.

Part of my problem was overusing English subtitles. I encouraged watching a J-drama once with subs to get context and from then on without subs. The problem was I was not re-watching the dramas, so that's hours of potential native level listening that went kind of to pseudo waste (but then, I was not watching them without subs, oh if only the Battlestar Galactica DVD's were out in Japan last year). Part of my problem was spending too much time getting material gathered for SRS (UBJG and KO 2001). Part of it was starting over with audio. Part of my problem is a Japanese girlfriend that speaks better English than I speak Japanese. I keep saying "problem", but really it just slowed me down.

Granted, I'm not the poster child for AJATT. I've not been good at the immersion. Alyks sounds like he's doing all the steps, so he'll be one to look out for in a few months to see if the system repeats the results.

At least I can say Heisig's advice pans out pretty well on my end.

kfmfe04 Wrote:There is constructive-critical and destructive-critical. Towards AJATT, I often see much more of the destructive type, not unlike the kinds of criticism I read against RtK. If you think there is a better way, please propose alternatives. Maybe someone else who can't use AJATT can learn from your experience.

There is always destructive criticism without better alternatives. If the person giving the criticism can't provide the alternative, then that person is not one you should be listening to. If that person provides an alternative that has been proven to only produce mediocre/typical results that person should also be ignored in this case, as well.

One can carve a statue with but a spoon.

But that's wasting a crap ton of valuable life and time.

lots of people Wrote:...blah...blah...blah...English stuff...

Think about how long it took you to read these arguments. Think of how long it took you to write a thoughtful reply.
You could have been studying Japanese/immersing yourself. Instead we choose to try to convince others who already are convinced that they are right, argue semantics, &c.

This forum has outlived it's usefulness for me; If I ever feel the need to read internet arguments I'll go to 2ch or something.
I love this site, and everything it's done for my Japanese, but it's time for me to leave.

Be nice to each other

uberstuber Wrote:

lots of people Wrote:...blah...blah...blah...English stuff...

Think about how long it took you to read these arguments. Think of how long it took you to write a thoughtful reply.
You could have been studying Japanese/immersing yourself. Instead we choose to try to convince others who already are convinced that they are right, argue semantics, &c.

This forum has outlived it's usefulness for me; If I ever feel the need to read internet arguments I'll go to 2ch or something.
I love this site, and everything it's done for my Japanese, but it's time for me to leave.

Be nice to each other

Wait. We're discussing Japanese here? Not neuroscience and emergent technologies?

Hrm.

Discussions are actually informative and civil as compared to forums on most websights. The internet gives anonymity for those who want to be as rude as possible with no consequences. There isn't much of that here.

Nukemarine Wrote:Really, a spur of the moment analogy about how one does not become great at the competition, but in the practice leading up to it is the stupidest thing you ever heard. "the Google" and "the internets" ranks up there for me. Then you go describe a training technique in running that's not even close to reality (hint: Sprinters get good not just by running, but with diet, some medium distance work, weight lifting, power work.)

Yeah, I wouldn't attach a one to one comparison of learning Japanese (a vague skill) to sprinting (a competitive sport). But I doubt Khatz was doing that either.

As for those that read better than you, but do not speak better than you, how much more have they listened to Japanese than you? Khatz argues the input theory that you just need to listen to Japanese a lot to speak it better. If you read a lot, you get better at writing. So, can you WRITE better than those that read more than you do? If the answer is yes, then you've adding a point against the input theory. Don't confuse the argument.

Yes running isn't the only thing a runner does for training, but it is the main thing I'd say. One at the very least does try to run occasionally instead of just passively looking at people run right? Anyways, analogies are never good things to use in an argument imo.

As per your question re how much passive listening I do... I do none. I don't watch tv/movies or listen to the radio, podcasts, etc. I just chat with Japanese friends/girlfriend for a couple hours a day in 100% Japanese. Tobberoth got it exactly right. The hard thing (in the beginning) isn't the physical act of making Japanese come out of your mouth, it's the thinking on the spot in Japanese that you need to get used to. Passive study of Japanese will never get you that, but it IS a prerequisite of course. No one is saying that you only need active, but it's silly to say that active isn't needed.

I think Khatz's success with Japanese has NOTHING to do with his method and everything to do with his motivation/dedication. He couldn't even give it a rest for 30 minutes to conduct the interview

He lived with a Japanese room mate and had a lot of Japanese friends, so of course he had an opportunity to speak whenever he wanted to. I find it hard to believe he never spoke for eighteen months and then could do an interview. He probably spoke Japanese everyday for the whole time. I just wonder why he never attributes any positive effects to all that speaking.

As for offering a constructive alternative, how about doing all the AJATT stuff but also using your Japanese by speaking and writing.

Then Jarvik, can you provide a video (or just audio) contrasting your speaking abilities to those you consider sub par (yet exceed you at reading). This is not a light hearted request. A three minute discussion with a native speaker on the benefits (or detriments) of the Heisig method should be cool. I know I couldn't do it, without sounding stupid.

As to saying passive is ALL you need, that too is wrong. There's still the studying part (getting words and sentences) that's a REALLY BIG PART of any process. It's just you don't have to worry about a question "In Japanese, ask the customer if he would like 30 extra minutes in the VIP suite for only 4000 yen more, using the honorific tone". Instead, it says you just have to hear it and/or read it and understand the parts and the entire sentence to consider it correct. If you don't do the studying part, expect to need ALOT more of the passive input to get just as good.

phauna Wrote:He lived with a Japanese room mate and had a lot of Japanese friends, so of course he had an opportunity to speak whenever he wanted to. I find it hard to believe he never spoke for eighteen months and then could do an interview. He probably spoke Japanese everyday for the whole time. I just wonder why he never attributes any positive effects to all that speaking.

As for offering a constructive alternative, how about doing all the AJATT stuff but also using your Japanese by speaking and writing.

Not sure if he had a Japanese room mate, and his girlfriend (now wife) did not speak Japanese. He mentions looking for Japanese people to talk too (even in the video), so yes he practiced speaking. He also mentioned how he could not do this much as: they got tired of him, they did their own thing (different church). So yes, he was speaking Japanese.

Now, is it your opinion that's why he got good at Japanese? That on the occasion it came up, he could speak creatively (not mimicing, but producing) with a Japanese or Japanese speaking Korean friend? Is it living with a Japanese that brings fluency? I've seen guys that do both, and I'm not too impressed. Yeah, they speak better than me, but I can tell something's off (or wrong) when I hear them.

Point being, part of it his him talking about the theory of input. Part of it is talking about his refined method. He did not follow it 100% of the way, and some of his ideas change with time. It still boils down to listening to a lot of Japanese, in addition to SRS, in addition to reading, in addition mimicing.

Nukemarine Wrote:Then Jarvik, can you provide a video (or just audio) contrasting your speaking abilities to those you consider sub par (yet exceed you at reading). This is not a light hearted request. A three minute discussion with a native speaker on the benefits (or detriments) of the Heisig method should be cool. I know I couldn't do it, without sounding stupid.

Haha, I'd like to, but my Japanese friends are drinking buddies not study partners so it would be a rather awkward conversation filled with them saying どうでもいい、飲もうよ. If you asked me earlier I could have recorded 10 hours of drunken jp conversation from Friday.

I don't know how I'd ask the people I know in the department here to take part either.. "Hey I need an example of someone who sucks at conversation can you help me out?" I actually saw a couple people using RTK but they thought the stories in the book were actual etymology.

I don't really see what you'd get out of it anyways though.. I don't really follow any method other than my own and most of the people here just took whatever classes they were offered (I've never taken Japanese at this university). The only major difference is that I spend a lot of time speaking whereas they spend a lot of time reading manga or shousetsu or whatever they're interested in. Time put into practicing/using an aspect of japanese -> improved skill at that aspect.

I personally think it's important to put grammar in active memory, vocabulary is less important because you're usually talking about a specific subject, so your brain will understand what words are needed from passive storage. Thinking an extra second to find that word you want to use doesn't really make a difference in your ability to converse, it's worse when you have to think for a second to realize what grammatical structure you should use for the next sentence, especially if this thinking is needed in the middle of a sentence because that leads to bad sentences being made.

In summary, to give this "alternative" you guys want to warrant critizing:
Going 100% input will make you bad at output. However, if you focus on passive and only spend time to put grammar into active/output memory, you should be allright.

Of course, it's just my personal theory since my own experience tells me Khaz claims in this aspect are wrong. I'm not in any way promising my alternative is any better or more time efficient, but I personally believe it is.