I first thought that the keywords are the actual meanings of the Kanji. But is this not correct? I have read some topics in which people say that the keywords are not the kanji meanings. But Kanji like: in, tall, and so on, they really are the keywords right?
but someone wrote this:

You don't necessarily need to be able to recall the keyword, because you're not really trying to keep those in the long run, anyway.

what does that mean? why don't I need to keep the keywords in my head? That's the whole point of Heisig right? seeing Kanji and knowing what they mean in english?
But I agree on this: how to know meanings of words which have 2 kanji? for example: World, is 1 kanji, yet 'sekai' or ?せかい? uses 2 kanji: 世界, why generation and world, if this combination just means world, just use the kanji for world, right? so how would you know what that word means? I bet there are more better examples, on which I can't come right now.

If anyone has a clue what I am saying, I might be vague, please help!

-Mesqueeb

Think of it this way: Heisig is merely putting all the kanji into your head; this will GREATLY facilitate learning later on. The keywords are his way of creating 'slots' in your brain to hold the kanji. These aren't always correct, but they're not bad to the point of causing confusion or trouble when readings and compounds are learned.

Every kanji has several meanings, many of them aren't even connected. For example, the kanji with the keyword "dispose" means "place" as well.

While it might help you to learn new compounds AND help you somewhat understand words you haven't seen before, keywords really aren't important. When you actually know Japanese, you don't think "tall" when you see 高, you think たかい, and it helps you a lot more to know real japanese words using the kanji than some keyword in English which sometimes isn't even relevant.

Kanji are very flexible and can have various meanings in different contexts and compounds. Heisig tried to pick an English keyword that matches what that particuar kanji would usually mean. However, sometimes the keyword does not suit the kanji at all if it's in a compound. You won't be able to understand Japanese just by learning all the kanji through the Heisig method. It's just a good way to remember how to write them all and be able to recognise them.

Mesqueeb Wrote:I first thought that the keywords are the actual meanings of the Kanji. But is this not correct? I have read some topics in which people say that the keywords are not the kanji meanings. But Kanji like: in, tall, and so on, they really are the keywords right?

A keyword is one of the meanings for a Kanji or it gives you a rough idea what a Kanji means. A vast amount of vocabulary consists of multiple Kanji called Jukugo - each jukugo can have meanings that are unrelated to the individual Kanji, though, usually, there is some connection.

Mesqueeb Wrote:but someone wrote this:

You don't necessarily need to be able to recall the keyword, because you're not really trying to keep those in the long run, anyway.

what does that mean? why don't I need to keep the keywords in my head? That's the whole point of Heisig right? seeing Kanji and knowing what they mean in english?

That's right - you don't have to recall the keyword, but you must be able to write the Kanji when you see/hear a keyword.

Mesqueeb Wrote:But I agree on this: how to know meanings of words which have 2 kanji? for example: World, is 1 kanji, yet 'sekai' or ?せかい? uses 2 kanji: 世界, why generation and world, if this combination just means world, just use the kanji for world, right? so how would you know what that word means? I bet there are more better examples, on which I can't come right now.

Yes, 世界 is an example of Jukugo 熟語. I have no intention of scaring you, but there are tens of thousands of these Kanji combinations. In fact, many would argue that's where the "real vocabulary" is... ...but it's hard to do Jukugo without knowing your Kanji first, so one step at a time.

世界 uses the Heisig keywords "generation" and "world". The real vocabulary word is 世界, not the individual keywords/Kanji. The keyword is there to give you an anchor and to give you a rough idea of the Kanji's meaning - that's it.

Here are other examples of Jukugo using "in" and "tall":
中身 なかみ is "contents"
中国 ちゅうごく is "China"
高校 こうこう is "high school"
円高 えんだか is "strengthening in the yen"

the meaning is usually close to the Kanji, but quite often, not.

Why these combinations? Usually because it was used in China for many hundreds of years - but the Japanese also make their own combinations - if you want to get into the etymology of how this came about, you would have to do some research for each individual case.

Ah I understand!
One of the things I'd like to point out:
"You don't need to know the keyword if you see a kanji, but you need to be able to write the kanji if you see the keyword."

Why is this? If we can't recall a keyword if we see the kanji in daily life, you won't know what it means right? Why even bother linking all those kanji to keywords at all then? It not like I see english words and want to write them in Kanji... Only for the review this is used.
I am still vague in understanding the purpose in learning all the keywords, what does it accurately help you then?

-Mesqueeb

Think of the keyword as a method to help you "Review" kanji. I say "me", and out of all the variants of kanji that refer to yourself, you can write out 僕 because you associated the keyword to that kanji. However, you know that it means a masculine way to refer to I, me, myself, self, etc. The keyword is there in my mind to give you a flashcard method to review, with an anchor for a visual story. Nothing is written that you should not look up the actual meanings of the kanji. In fact, I encourage it.

Now, MANY keywords pretty much describe the kanji it's attach. A few are attached to rarer variants of combination words. Some are derived from the Thesaurus. Some just are Japanese (Rin, Ri, Nara, etc.). Look up the meaning, at it all becomes clear. With grease monkey scripts, this is easier than in the day and age that Heisig originally wrote RTK.

Mesqueeb Wrote:Ah I understand!
One of the things I'd like to point out:
"You don't need to know the keyword if you see a kanji, but you need to be able to write the kanji if you see the keyword."

Why is this? If we can't recall a keyword if we see the kanji in daily life, you won't know what it means right? Why even bother linking all those kanji to keywords at all then? It not like I see english words and want to write them in Kanji... Only for the review this is used.
I am still vague in understanding the purpose in learning all the keywords, what does it accurately help you then?

-Mesqueeb

Memory, in general, works best with associations. Generally speaking, the more associations you have to a piece of knowledge, the harder it is to forget that piece of knowledge. Think of the keyword as "scaffolding" - you build it in place initially so you have an anchor for your image, for the purposes of writing that Kanji from the keyword. As you practice more and more, and as you approach the end of RTK1, some of your stories will fall away, and you will go directly from keyword to writing the Kanji. Eventually, you will become so proficient that even the keyword will fall away. Someone will ask you, how do you write the Kanji for Kirin (giraffe), and you will simply write out 麒麟 without having to think about the keywords...

Technically, you could associate 中 with the onyomi ちゅう, the kunyomi なか, the vocabulary 中国, the color red, or even to your Uncle Sam, if that helps you, somehow. But for someone who has no knowledge of Japanese, Heisig decided what is best is probably an association from an English keyword (which invokes a story or imagery) to a Kanji. Assuming you already know English, that is the minimum you need to make an association from something you already know to something you don't know yet: the writing of that Kanji. You can learn all the other things that go with 中 later on.

This way works well with Japanese because there are so many other things that "go with" 中. You will see in some other threads for Hanzi (you can think of them as Chinese Kanji) that some learners, like Serge, suggest that you learn the readings along with the Hanzi - because the extra things that "go with" 中 is very minimal in Chinese, compared to Japanese. There is so little extra to learn, in fact, why not learn the Simplified character, too? But I am going off topic here...

If you don't have the RTK1 book already, you should buy it and read the introduction carefully. He explains it in much better and deeper terms. He even explains why going from 中 the Kanji to the keyword is not as important, initially. Go buy the book and read it - it will also help explain all the radicals and the reasoning behind many, many more questions you may have.

Let me just say: It helps!

Before I started learning Kanji meanings, I'd look at a page of Japanese text and be completely lost. Now, with a frightening small amount vocab about about 1100 kanji meanings, I can pick things out that actually mean something. Even without knowing how to pronounce it, I know that 閉店 has something do with closing a store. Add in a little grammar and I know whether it's closing, has closed, etc by the kana around it.

If you're doubting whether RTK is useful, don't. It -is- useful. Plus, it gives you a huge confidence boost as well when you aren't staring at a page full of things you can't begin to understand.

Honestly, I don't know how people ever stood to learn kanji the old way. It's so much easier to learn the readings and vocab after you've memorized what a bunch of them mean.

The point of RTK is well said in its name. "Remember" the kanji. RTK will help you remember them. Recognizing the kanji is muuuuch easier. Writing they from memory is much much harder. That is RTK's goal.

Once you finished RTK your work will still not be over. The path is a bit longer:

keyword -> KANJI -> meaning/reading -> japanese.

RTK covers the keyword -> KANJI part. After doing RTK you'll still have to learn how to read them, and of course, learn the language.
The reason it is worthful to do RTK is that it can be done quickly and it fits well with SRS reviews. Some do it in 1 month, you should aim for that.

CONS:
- They are useless once you know enough vocabulary.
- They might be confusing or misleading.

PROS:
- They help you identify the kanji, so you can review them with an SRS efficiently.
- They don't force you to have previous knowledge of vocabulary.
- They fit well with mnemonics memory techniques.

mentat_kgs Wrote:Once you finished RTK your work will still not be over. The path is a bit longer: keyword -> KANJI -> meaning/reading -> japanese.

RTK covers the keyword -> KANJI part. After doing RTK you'll still have to learn how to read them, and of course, learn the language.
The reason it is worthful to do RTK is that it can be done quickly and it fits well with SRS reviews. Some do it in 1 month, you should aim for that.

I think mentat's reminder that RTK is just one step really good - it helps manage expectations (before the investment ). Similarly, I wouldn't want people to underestimate the time commitment. Most people are not able to manage it in 1 month (see other threads). This would involve a massive number of reviews and hours/day (and completing the 4 reviews/kanji may not even be possible?). The point is: find a workable pace without losing momentum.

Hi Mescqueeb: The intro to the RTK book is available here. , but you'll want to have a copy.

Most keywords do reflect a specific or general meanings of the kanji and having a sense of the meanings is helpful when learning vocabulary later on. Eventually you'll retain the meanings (where appropriate) without the English keyword.

Yup, it is very hard to do it under 1 month, but it is doable and it works.

It took me 3 months with 3hours/day of study. I tried to do it under a month. Even if I have not reached my goal, I still consider the 3 months a total success.

Another use of keywords:
You can type a kanji into your computer even if you don't know its reading. It's much faster than using a kanji pad, or browsing by components.

iSoron Wrote:Another use of keywords:
You can type a kanji into your computer even if you don't know its reading. It's much faster than using a kanji pad, or browsing by components.

Microsofts IME can't do that

Thank god for jisho.orgs radical search.

I use anki search with RTK keyword.

Tobberoth Wrote:

iSoron Wrote:Another use of keywords:
You can type a kanji into your computer even if you don't know its reading. It's much faster than using a kanji pad, or browsing by components.

Microsofts IME can't do that

Thank god for jisho.orgs radical search.

Kanjidic can, so can this website.

I understand it now I think, however, I am obliged to stop using RtK for a little while, because I am having 3kyu test in December here in Japan. And it's really something else.
^^
I live in Japan until July, I hope to be able to start RtK once more, and finish it around end February. Then comes the learning how to say it. Is that something that occupies the rest of your life? Or is there also a method to do it in a few months? (all the onyomi and kunyomi I mean)
By this time I already speak basic Japanese, because I go to a Japanese High school, and it's funny how I sometimes only know the Kanji instead of the word. xD
^^
(my name is Mesqueeb, not Mescqueeb >,<)

-Mesqueeb

Mesqueeb Wrote:I understand it now I think, however, I am obliged to stop using RtK for a little while, because I am having 3kyu test in December here in Japan. And it's really something else.
^^
I live in Japan until July, I hope to be able to start RtK once more, and finish it around end February. Then comes the learning how to say it. Is that something that occupies the rest of your life? Or is there also a method to do it in a few months? (all the onyomi and kunyomi I mean)
By this time I already speak basic Japanese, because I go to a Japanese High school, and it's funny how I sometimes only know the Kanji instead of the word. xD
^^
(my name is Mesqueeb, not Mescqueeb >,<)

-Mesqueeb

There are techniques to learn on'yomi quickly. Alkys on this forum "invented" a movie method where you can learn one on'yomi for every kanji, and he did that (and learning kanji with the same technique) in like, 50 days.

Personally, I learn using context instead, but it depends on how you work as a person. I seriously doubt there's a good technique to learn ALL kun'yomi and on'yomi since there are so many and they are so different.