And the word is "の"!

As in それから星の破片の落ちたの拾って来て、。。。。


Slightly more than mildly more than just a bit more confusing.

Star's fragments of fallen, came to pick up?

I think it would translate to something like, I picked up the fragment of the fallen star...

I'm just not sure how the verb 落ちる　is used here.

Edit: If I read it backwards it makes more sense. From there (?), I came to pick up a fallen fragment of a star.

This reminds me of something, 2 things actually. The first is My Boss my Hero, first episode. The other is: あそこの本棚の上の棚の右の方の大きい字引の隣の本。 = The book next to the big dictionary on the right side of the upper shelf of the bookshelves over there.

Sounds like someone is describing what happened, like saying in English. "Then there was the picking up of the fallen star fragments (meteorites?)" きて just meaning they were picked up and brought back to wherever.

Not 100% on that though.

I think the sentence sounds odd, it would be nice if you could post a context as in what sentences surrounded it. However, I think the two の in this sentence have different meanings, remember that の after a verb makes the verb into a noun, same as if putting こと after it.

"And then I gathered a fragment of a fallen star, [then did something else]"

Natsume Soseki?

Edit: Here's the original text, Ten Nights of Dream.
This is an excerpt from the first dream (first chapter).

The last の is a nominalizer, as Tobberoth have suggested.

Is this "standard Japanese" or is there some grammar/wordplay going on, with so many の? Japanese seem to like to play around with their language in literature and pop culture. I wonder if the flexibility of the language encourages people to be creative in the way they express themselves...

Soseki,


自分はそれから庭へ下りて、　真珠貝で穴を掘った。　真珠貝は大き滑らかな縁の鋭い貝であった。　土をすくう度に、　貝の裏に月の光が差してきらきらした。　湿った土の匂もした。　穴はしばらくして掘れた。　女をその中に入れた。　そうして柔らかい土を、　上からそっと掛けた。　掛けるた毎に真珠貝の裏に月の光が差した。

それから星の破片の落ちたの拾って来て、かろく土の上へ乗せた。星の破片は丸かった。　長い間大空を落ちている間に、角が取れて滑らかになったんっだろうと思った。　抱き上げて土の上へ置くうちに、　自分の胸と手が少し暖くなった。


I've only recently began to grasp the... と思った　と　といった. It's seemingly beauty.

kfmfe04 Wrote:Is this "standard Japanese" or is there some grammar/wordplay going on, with so many の? Japanese seem to like to play around with their language in literature and pop culture. I wonder if the flexibility of the language encourages people to be creative in the way they express themselves...

Nah, の is one of those particles which is almost overused. Not only can the genetive の be used TONS in a normal sentence, it can also be a nominalizer or put at the end of a sentence like da and ka, so you can easily have standard japanese sentences with at least 4 の in them without it being considered odd.

Tobberoth Wrote:I think the sentence sounds odd, it would be nice if you could post a context as in what sentences surrounded it. However, I think the two の in this sentence have different meanings, remember that の after a verb makes the verb into a noun, same as if putting こと after it.

I can handle the ending の, now. It's the two preceding ones that are driving me nuts.

It's hard to make sense of it when I put all three elements together. It literally feels like a hole is there in my brain where the comprehension should be.


*takes a long, very long break*

And let's not forget that the ん in んだ is actually a short の.

I had an instructor from 東大 once complain that Chinese students of Japanese tend to overuse の 。

Tobberoth Wrote:

kfmfe04 Wrote:Is this "standard Japanese" or is there some grammar/wordplay going on, with so many の? Japanese seem to like to play around with their language in literature and pop culture. I wonder if the flexibility of the language encourages people to be creative in the way they express themselves...

Nah, の is one of those particles which is almost overused.

Maybe it is a light wordplay. He could have written 落ちた星の破片, couldn't he?

iSoron Wrote:Maybe it is a light wordplay. He could have written 落ちた星の破片, couldn't he?

Nah, that'd have made it a little too easy.

kazelee Wrote:それから星の破片の落ちたの拾って来て、かろく土の上へ乗せた。星の破片は丸かった。　長い間大空を落ちている間に、角が取れて滑らかになったんっだろうと思った。　抱き上げて土の上へ置くうちに、　自分の胸と手が少し暖くなった。

You've quoted the text incorrectly. In particular, you've missed an を. I believe the text should read:

それから星の破片の落ちたのを拾って来て、かろく土の上へ乗せた。

Consider rephrasing like this:

それから星の落ちた破片を拾って来て、かろく土の上へ乗せた。

Then it makes perfect sense, except for the fact that I have no idea what かろく means. Perhaps an old fashioned way of saying 軽く? I would translate the sentence like this:

Then (I) picked up the shard which fell from the star and lightly placed it on top of the earth.

(I don't know whether 'I' is the appropriate subject since I haven't read the context and I guessed that かろく meant lightly)

This text is beautiful but difficult. There's lots of stuff which is easier and just as enjoyable to read.

Yeah, I figured I was bound to miss something.

The　かろく is listed as lightly in the definitions at the bottom of the page.

Your rephrasing makes perfect sense.

I know this is difficult, I use it for shadowing mostly. This part happens to be the most troublesome for me of the entire story.

Could you recommend some easier pieces (preferably actual books with audio I can find online)?

I'd liken what I'm doing to learning a Chopin Etude (piano) only 2 months after learning to read sheet music (something I've actually tried, and wouldn't recommend). It's not something the sane would do.

Looking at the list of audiobooks (http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=752), I'd say that there are some easy stories there. I found "The Little Prince" and "The Fox Boy" quite easy.

The children's fairy tales are also, of course, quite easy but I find them particularly boring, and the hiragana spamming does not help either, not to mention they're translated from English.

I found this story ゆきの物語 (http://www.citlink.net/~richvh/) quite readable, easy, and interesting but unfortunately it seems to be written by a non-native speaker, and I can't tell whether the quality is good.

kazelee Wrote:Could you recommend some easier pieces (preferably actual books with audio I can find online)?

What kind of stories do you like?

Given the context of star shards falling to earth, you may be interested in 銀河鉄道の夜, which has an audio version on the thread linked to in the post above. Pros are that it's a classic, there are plenty of translations, there's an animated film and it's aimed at junior high school kids. Cons are that it's slightly older language (early 20th century anyway) and it's long.

I just read that first dream (too much free time at work) and it's not as hard as I thought from your quotes. It's also got the massive plus point of being short. I enjoyed it.

I read a bunch of short stories in a class once and they were really great. They were mystery style and kept you gripped right to the end. They start with a strange event and you keep reading to find out why the event happened. Forgotten the names so I'll try and find out what they were and then I'll post.

wrightak Wrote:I just read that first dream (too much free time at work) and it's not as hard as I thought from your quotes. It's also got the massive plus point of being short. I enjoyed it.

Speak for yourself

I've found an audio recording where the speaker doesn't talk nearly as fast as the one I currently use. Makes it seem a bit easier. The slower one seems to be shorter than the faster one. I would guess because they use such different beats. The faster one seems to take longer pauses.

Quote:What kind of stories do you like?

That's a good question. Mostly I just read informational books. I guess mystery or horror or something with a hint of weird.

kazelee Wrote:I'd liken what I'm doing to learning a Chopin Etude (piano) only 2 months after learning to read sheet music (something I've actually tried, and wouldn't recommend). It's not something the sane would do.

Heck, there's always the Trois Nouvelles...

I tried that back when I was 17.

It's been about five years. I managed to do the opus 10 no 6 and no 12. I spent almost 2 years trying to master opus 10 first etude. I even gave some Godowsky transcriptions a try (sans success).

I used to practice hardcore, like 3-5 hours a day. I'll admit, though, in the last two years I haven't practiced very much. I'd gotten to the ending section of his 3rd ballade and Liszt's Gnomenreigen before I started slacking.

I've currently picked out two Scarlatti sonatas in order to break myself back into piano. I just need to pace myself with Japanese and school before getting back on the saddle.

I think this is a case where の　can replace が and the meaning is like それから星の破片が落ちたの拾って来て、 although I have to look at my particles handbook to remember when you use の instead of が. Something of emphasis if I recall, like が throws the emphasis on the subject but の doesn't.

Anyway, thinking of it as the subject marker (like が) when used between a noun a verb-like clause should help make more sense of it.