Hello everyone.

I just came up with this concept and I'm calling it "talking cards".

Here's the link:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=4QR16LHW

One problem that I often have with grammar is that I don't use many
grammar patterns simply because I don't remember them when I'm speaking.
I spend hours studying patterns, but they just don't come to my head when speaking.

So here's what I did.

I wrote down all the grammar patterns in the Unicom JLPT 2 Grammar book.

I crossed reference them with the "500 Essential Japanese Expressions: A Guide to
Correct Usage of Key Sentence Patterns". This book breaks down all JLPT 1and 2 grammar into 30 categories. Some grammar patterns are listed under more than one category.

I took each of the 191 patterns in the Unicom book and organized them by these 30 categories. I managed to squeeze everything into exactly 2 pages using tables.

The idea is that you would have these sheets in front of you when
talking (hence the name "talking cards").

For example, one category is "Compare/Contrast". When you're talking and suddenly
want compare/contrast something, look down at the sheet and see what patterns
are available. Then, pick the most appropriate one.

There are no grammar or usage rules. It's up to you to study
that on your own and know it well enough to use it daily speech.

Note this is only a rough draft (some categories need revision) and I'm probably also going to do the same thing for JLPT 3 grammar patterns(by cross-referencing the 200 Essential Japanese Expressions" book)

Let me know what you think.
Thanks.

I would strongly advise you against doing this. I've studied both books, and a great majority of the grammar points are only used when writing. I know that 500 Essential Japanese expressions does state when a phrase is used in writing or if it's formal, but even grammar structures that aren't marked sometimes never get used when speaking. You'll end up sounding like exactly what you're doing; a text book that speaks.

JLPT 2 (and 1) grammar is useful if you want to increase your reading comprehension and pass the JLPT, but that's about it.

If you want to increase your fluency in the language, just start listening to a LOT of Japanese talk shows, dramas, radio, etc. They all provide natural speech that you can safely mimic without sounding like a professor giving a lecture. (And of course if you have Japanese people at your disposal, by all means, buddy up to them and start talkin!)

samesong Wrote:I would strongly advise you against doing this. I've studied both books, and a great majority of the grammar points are only used when writing. I know that 500 Essential Japanese expressions does state when a phrase is used in writing or if it's formal, but even grammar structures that aren't marked sometimes never get used when speaking. You'll end up sounding like exactly what you're doing; a text book that speaks.

JLPT 2 (and 1) grammar is useful if you want to increase your reading comprehension and pass the JLPT, but that's about it.

If you want to increase your fluency in the language, just start listening to a LOT of Japanese talk shows, dramas, radio, etc. They all provide natural speech that you can safely mimic without sounding like a professor giving a lecture. (And of course if you have Japanese people at your disposal, by all means, buddy up to them and start talkin!)

I wouldn't really agree with that. It's true that some of the grammar points in JLPT2 and 1 are only used in writing, but some are used in both though MOSTLY in writing.

Example of good JLPT2 grammar which are very usable in conversation:
に従って
によって
と共に
だらけ
にかわって

etc etc.

Yes, there are a handful of grammar points that are used in conversation, but writing out a list of all the level 2 grammar points, putting it in front of you, and looking down at that list every time you want to form a sentence would not be very beneficial.

For one, there isn't any textbook in the world that fully explains the subtle nuances of certain grammar points; it's something you just have to get a "feel" for after repeatedly reading and hearing them in context. And even if the nuances are explained well enough, looking through each grammatical point, reading which to use, how to conjugate it, etc, would certainly interrupt the flow of conversation.

Take for example chapter 9 of "500 Essential". We have these phrases: ~ばかりでなく、　～ばかりか、～に限らず、～ただ～だけなく、　and ～にとどまらず all defined as 「～だけではなく」. Would it really be beneficial to look down at your list and take 5 minutes to figure out exactly which of those grammatical patterns should be used?

Out of experience I can say that Khatzumoto hit the nail on the head: attempting to force particular vocabulary or grammatical patterns into a conversation makes you sound awkward and unnatural. It's far, far, better to passively learn the grammar points, understand them, know how and when they are used in a particular context, and then let them naturally come out of your mouth when the situation arises.

I personally don't believe that approach works. My personal experience with people learning Japanese and their varying skill in using grammatical structures correctly in speech clearly shows that people who output a grammatical pattern a lot will use it more often and more naturally. Yes, it will be forced in the start and yes, there will be mistakes, but that is how one puts it in their active vocabulary.

As an example, I know what に応じて means and I could probably write a good natural sounding phrase using it, but I NEVER use it in conversation simply because it never comes up in my brain. と共に however I liked and found to be useful, so I started to use it in easy sentences (which is odd in itself since it's a decently advanced grammar pattern) and now I use it perfectly and it DOES pop up naturally in my head when having a conversation. I forced it into my active vocabulary and now it stays there.

samesong Wrote:Yes, there are a handful of grammar points that are used in conversation, but writing out a list of all the level 2 grammar points, putting it in front of you, and looking down at that list every time you want to form a sentence would not be very beneficial.

For one, there isn't any textbook in the world that fully explains the subtle nuances of certain grammar points; it's something you just have to get a "feel" for after repeatedly reading and hearing them in context. And even if the nuances are explained well enough, looking through each grammatical point, reading which to use, how to conjugate it, etc, would certainly interrupt the flow of conversation.

Take for example chapter 9 of "500 Essential". We have these phrases: ~ばかりでなく、　～ばかりか、～に限らず、～ただ～だけなく、　and ～にとどまらず all defined as 「～だけではなく」. Would it really be beneficial to look down at your list and take 5 minutes to figure out exactly which of those grammatical patterns should be used?

Out of experience I can say that Khatzumoto hit the nail on the head: attempting to force particular vocabulary or grammatical patterns into a conversation makes you sound awkward and unnatural. It's far, far, better to passively learn the grammar points, understand them, know how and when they are used in a particular context, and then let them naturally come out of your mouth when the situation arises.

He's not trying to use this to learn them though. This is for when he already knows something but just can't recall exactly how to say it. So he just looks at his sheet and it helps him recall and will probably reinforce his memory of it. This is more of a cheat sheet than a study tool.

I mean: sometimes I can't remember the exact word I want so I have to get out a thesaurus. I already knew the word, I just couldn't recall it at the time. I don't see how this can really hurt him.

If he is wanting to use this list for talking, then I assume he is talking TO someone, most likely a native Japanese, who is going to respond to what he is saying. I would think the nature of the situation would allow someone using this sheet to find the most natural usages of these words more quickly.

If someone sat down to talk to me and had a sheet of English phrases, I would be more likely to help them with which ones sound more natural in which situations than if someone were just incorrectly using grammar in a way that is unnatural but understandable. In other words, I wouldn't volunteer, "That sounds really awkward. Say 'xxx' instead," if someone just said something to me. But if I know they are choosing from a list, I might say, "This word is more natural." Or, "You used the word correctly, but it sounds bookish."

Looking at it from a "trying to force some bit of random grammar into a sentence without any feedback" perspective, it looks like a bad idea. You would just force some rarely used grammar into your own common usage vocabulary. But to me it looks like a way to open up the person you're speaking with to correct you without feeling awkward themselves or give better insight than just, "That sounds funny." Maybe they will give you some info on some words on the list that you hadn't even tried using.

We communicate in ways other than words. Holding a sheet of grammar points communicates, "I would really like to learn more about this stuff." Which will gain different responses from the listener than just inserting random grammar and watching their reactions. Just my opinion.