I learn plenty from watching subbed anime. I've learned the skim the subtitles quickly, while still listening to the dialogue. Over time, you'll know when the translation is wrong anyway, because it won't match what you've previously learned. Once you're Japanese is at a higher level, though, it gets hard to listen to long sentences and read at the same time(I hear words and phrases, but if I watch without subs, I'd get the whole sentence. I should cut out the English subs from now on...)

"Dont let anime be your drug and learning japanese your excuse to use it."
-- some dude on youtube.

DBZ pretty much killed my interest in anime. I started watching it again only to be met with exactly what I hated about DBZ (uberfiller). So, I've pretty much given up on anime.

I have done this with fan-subbed comedies though, but in reverse- without subtitles then with. Then without again. It proves to be very enlightening.

I'm not trying to convert you or anything, because you can watch or not watch whatever the hell you want, but I just wanted to point out that the uberfiller issue is largely (exclusively?) a shounen series thing (DBZ, Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, etc). Largest indicator if you can't tell a shounen on sight is: if a series is marked to continue to episode 400, it's going to be 300 episodes of filler that make American soap operas seem fast-paced. If it's a 13, 26, or 52(questionably) episode anime (the usual spreads for anime with predefined endings), it'll all be significant, barring a recap episode or two. In the better ones, not even that.

Actually, that's specifically what I like about Japanese television. In the US, a series typically launches without any specified goal, and continues until ratings can it. In Japan (particularly in anime), the norm seems to be to tell a specific story within a specific number of episodes and then move on to a new project. In the US we occasionally get series that seem to ACT like that at first (24, Lost, Prison Break), but which end up delaying any kind of resolution and meandering on through 10 seasons of nothing, becoming progressively more ridiculous in story elements, until nobody cares anymore (...24, Lost, Prison Break).

That's interesting. I didn't know that. Bleach was the series that did me in. It started off well enough and then certain weird and irritating characters started to be added with no intention other than wasting screen time. I finally cracked after they literally interrupted the main story line to make up a story.

I must add, though these uberfillers are what killed it for me, my interest was already fading. The only series I actually liked in the last decade were Elfen Lied, Xcel Saga, and Bleach sadly (and I'm officially divorcing this one). Perhaps I'll find something I like if a delve into the more obscure corner.

On American tv: I saw this show called Heroes. I watched the entire first season online, so I never noticed that it was a commercial whore of a show. Also, it seems to be going off in random and obscure places with no end in sight.

Networks like Fox have a habit of saying screw you to it's show regardless of how well it's doing just to show a $baseball game/$. It even did this to the Terminator series (what the heck are they puffing).

I think it laughable that there is more than one season of Prison Break. It's like having multiple seasons of a show called Can Opener (okay we've opened the can, now what...open another one!) At first I was sad that shows like Torchwood weren't infinite occassions, but then I look at shows like these and quickly appreciate the sanity of the producers.

I won't mention anything about Gokusen

I had the same impression of Bleach, actually. I really enjoyed the first few episodes and thought it was going to be a really enjoyable series for me. But then it went off into.. well, wherever it went off to. The first few episodes were just so episodic, I was caught completely off guard and totally disappointed to find it launching into a.. 50? 70? episode storyline. I actually followed it for around 30+ episodes or so, because I still just thought the whole thing was just going to be a little adventure, but eventually gave up.

That's not to criticize anyone's enjoyment of these series, by the way. I've seen all of DBZ and have actually watched quite a bit of Naruto. I get the appeal, it's just not usually what I go in for.

I sympathize with the waning interest in anime as a general thing. I've found that I don't actually like most anime at all. That's not terribly surprising, since the rule of 90% of everything is crap is always true But more particularly, I don't like a lot of the stuff that gets especially popular in the States, which becomes a small problem every now and then. Once any anime fan finds out I 'like anime'(but it's a medium not a genre :/), there's always this question and answer session about it, and it's moderately painful because I hate everything they bring up, and if I bring anything up, they've never heard of it. I have a similar problem when people find out I 'like comics'(which is again a medium, and not a genre), because I don't really read Marvel and DC superhero stuff. Ah well.

Anyway, yeah, there's a lot more stuff out there like Elfen Lied Or Excel Saga (in scope), in most any genre. From all the usual recommendations, just look for any that are 26 episodes or less for the complete series. You'll get something concise. Whether or not the story is actually enjoyable is another matter
For stuff that's like Bleach or DBZ in that they're male-oriented action adventure that aren't very heady, stuff like Claymore, Fullmetal Alchemist, and I guess maybe Blood+ (so-so) are examples. I haven't seen all of the first, and as the latter two are 52 episodes they do meander, but it's in a different fashion. Rather than hovering on a single story thread (or battle) for several(dozens of) episodes, they tend to diverge off into short little sidestories a lot that aren't necessarily tied to anything.
For adventure that's completely episodic but where each episode manages to tie into the main thesis of the show in some way, there's always Cowboy Bebop and Trigun...
This is all stuff that's popular in the west, too, because I don't really go out of my way to find action-adventure stuff and don't know how far this stuff goes. My obscure anime is all in the slice of life and comedy section, heheh. So, you may have already seen and not liked them. Eh.

Anyway, other genres are everywhere, again, but I thought I'd point out some of the shounen stuff with concrete endings and no filler just as a direct comparison.

I'm done derailing now.

kazelee Wrote:At first I was sad that shows like Torchwood weren't infinite occassions, but then I look at shows like these and quickly appreciate the sanity of the producers

'Sanity' and 'Torchwood producers' aren't words I'd usually think of in the same sentence!

Lucky Star is kind of Otaku, but very addicting if you get into it...

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=LdzJ7qYmE8M

albion Wrote:'Sanity' and 'Torchwood producers' aren't words I'd usually think of in the same sentence!

How can a homo-erotic show about pathetic self destructive individuals with an even more pathetic indestructible flaming leader not be sane? Common now...

kfmfe04 Wrote:Lucky Star is kind of Otaku, but very addicting if you get into it...

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=LdzJ7qYmE8M

I don't know what the heck this show is but that opening theme is kinda hot.

*still watching*

DUDE!

WTF!?

*continues to part 2*

Seriously..what?

Ohhhh.....

*continues to part 3*

DUDE!

WTF!?

kfmfe04 Wrote:Lucky Star is kind of Otaku, but very addicting if you get into it...

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=LdzJ7qYmE8M

And exact j-subs are available too. What more can we ask for?
I can find them for you if you need them (there was a thread with a few links).

kazelee, you seriously need to watch some GOOD HIGH QUALITY anime.

I recommend:
Honey and Clover
Mushishi
Cowboy Bebop

Yes, the Lucky Star dance has actually caught on:

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=82URtK0g1zk
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=tiJa8PgHi-g

Apparently, it's possible to measure your aptitude in anime by watching Lucky Star; there are many, many in-jokes which only frequent viewers of anime will catch (otaku)

But even without that knowledge, it's still fun to watch, and a good break from studying Japanese...

Tobberoth Wrote:kazelee, you seriously need to watch some GOOD HIGH QUALITY anime.

I recommend:
Honey and Clover
Mushishi
Cowboy Bebop

IMHO, quality isn't just in the drawing or the music, btw...

Cowboy Bebop is excellent - if you like that, also check out Samurai Champloo...
Here's a spoof on Cowboy Bebop ala Lucky Star...

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=BUfs9Od9zWw

Tobberoth Wrote:kazelee, you seriously need to watch some GOOD HIGH QUALITY anime.

I recommend:
Honey and Clover
Mushishi
Cowboy Bebop

I actually saw Cowboy Bebop. The only episodes I liked in the series were the first one, the one where the pudding took over the ship, and the last one. The episodes had interesting names though. I particularly liked "sympathy for the devil." I lost interest in Trigun after the 4th episode.

I've never even hear of those other two. Once I plow through this latest batch of series I might check them out.

"Yes, the Lucky Star dance has actually caught on:

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=82URtK0g1zk
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=tiJa8PgHi-g

"

that's scary

I'm going to have to add to the list of best anime

Scryed
Read or Die (OVA is better)

Here is a link to Samurai Champloo

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=UfpfH1oSRXk

It was produced by the same guy who did Cowboy Bebop

albion Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:At first I was sad that shows like Torchwood weren't infinite occassions, but then I look at shows like these and quickly appreciate the sanity of the producers

'Sanity' and 'Torchwood producers' aren't words I'd usually think of in the same sentence!

I don't know, I think they're pretty sane. It reminds me of a lot of my favorite comic books so it quickly became pretty high on my list.

I used to watch anime with subs. First anime I watched partially unsubbed was the one about the school full of magic users (yeah.. I know.. that narrows it down, huh..) and back then I was really struggling and ended up not understanding a lot. Now, though, my Japanese is a lot better and I can basically follow most of an anime with no subs. Now, when I watch anime on youtube, if it's subbed (harder to find raw on youtube) I'll intentionally try to ignore the subs, or even move the screen down so the subs are hidden.

By the way, if you wanna see some really bad subs (from a big studio!) check this out: http://www.glowingfaceman.com/2008/09/go...grish.html

nac_est Wrote:

kfmfe04 Wrote:Lucky Star is kind of Otaku, but very addicting if you get into it...

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=LdzJ7qYmE8M

And exact j-subs are available too. What more can we ask for?
I can find them for you if you need them (there was a thread with a few links).

Exact J-subs for らき☆すた? I... ;<< I suppose I might accept those, if you insist.

Here: http://kitsunekko.net/JapaneseAnimeSubtitles.aspx
There plenty more besides らき☆すた. (This was first posted by shakkun)

cracky Wrote:I don't know, I think they're pretty sane. It reminds me of a lot of my favorite comic books so it quickly became pretty high on my list.

I haven't really seen much to properly judge. I just couldn't get past the second (?) episode with that stuff about forgetting who you were or where you are or something. That did it for me. It just seemed they were going for 'mature' by adding a load of swearing and sex in there.

snispilbor Wrote:By the way, if you wanna see some really bad subs (from a big studio!) check this out: http://www.glowingfaceman.com/2008/09/go...grish.html

I had a fun reading that.

One thing with the watching anime with subs thing.

I have taught about 400 Japanese students learning English over the last 6 months. I have also had a lot of experience with friends who can speak English.

I have never ever seen a student with natural sounding English who intersperses their English with Japanese, even when they speak to themselves. This is largely unrelated to ability. My boss at work has around a 900 score on toeic (which doesn't include speaking of course) but there is nothing natural about the way she speaks.

This probably doesn't sound so related to watching anime with eng subs, but I believe it is heading down a path to mixing up your Japanese and English. You need to keep them as seperate as possible if you want to really break out of speaking translated English.

To give you an idea of what I mean, my brain actually hurts if I have been speaking Japanese and I then start speaking English. I tend to back translate, from Japanese to English in this situation too, as I am in Japanese mode. I also sometimes do things like start writing my students names on the board in Hiragana as they read them out, since they are Japanese.

This is not to say that my Japanese is that great, it's not, but I think keeping your languages distinct (arguably unless you are already multi lingual) is key to becoming really natural.

I don't have trouble switching to/from Japanese and English(I don't separate the two languages, really). I don't need to translate anything back and forth either, and I don't mix anything up. I don't think watching anime with subs would cause these problems, not anymore than any Japanese that comes with an English translation(ex, textbooks).

I don't think anyone has to worry about mixing up the 2 languages. Everything I've read about not mixing languages says it's a myth. I doubt watching anime with subs is somehow going to ruin your Japanese. Almost everyone I know that can speak Japanese learned by having some of the words translated into their own language(at least at first). I've never had a problem with separating the 2, it's easy to turn one off, if you want to. I think a lot of people don't want to because when you're level is low you can't say anything. When your level is low you become a child again(helpless) and for many people that is a scary thing. I think most people want that safety net of their 1st language so they hold on to until they get to a level where they can have a semi-normal conversation.