It has nothing to do with biology. It has to do with habitual tendencies within a culture. We all change our behavior according to what society expects to some degree. If it hurts us socially then we might change a positive habit into a negative one through peer pressure.

In college I was told to drop any class that had a large number of Chinese students because scores were given on a curve. Everyone just believed they were smarter. They never paid attention to the fact that the Chinese students were in the library studying from the time it opened until the time it closed. It was taught to them by their culture.

In America, black Americans tend to score lower on tests than the population at large. There is no difference in potential between the black student and the Chinese except habitual tendencies that can be changed with effort. There is great peer pressure not to put forth effort in studies for many in that segment of the population

Nevertheless, prejudging any particular individual based on these criteria is ethically horrendous.

QuackingShoe Wrote:Nevertheless, prejudging any particular individual based on these criteria is ethically horrendous.

Maybe so, but at the same time, you have to think of practicality.

Lets say I'm walking down the street in the middle of the night. On the road to the right, a group of 5 white people come walking. On the road to the left, a group of 5 arabs come walking. (I'm seeing this from a Swedish standpoint, if you're american you can switch arabs to blacks). I can go either left or right to get to my goal. The utopian view would be that I simply walk the first direction that comes into my mind. The actual happening will be me walking to the right, simply because I know that statistically there's a bigger chance the arabs will be a threat to me (I'm still talking Sweden here).

This doesn't mean the arabs would have hurt me. It doesn't mean the whites won't. But I had to make a choice and as a smart modern person, I go for what brings me the most benefit, even if it's ethically wrong.

Uh, what!?

That makes no sense. It makes more sense to walk in the street. 3 or more people in any group tend to use group think. Which means they use being in the group as an excuse to do things they normally wouldn't.

The smart choice is to avoid both groups.

I should have made it clear I was referring more specifically to the example of hiring practices, where it's substantially more ethically horrible, and also illegal in the US.

While ideally one would act entirely impartially on principle at all times, 'practicality' may juddge that in many private situations and particularly with any safety-related issues, judgments will be made. As irritating as I find it to be dodged by women and be glared at whenever I end up talking to a child that isn't mine in public, I accept that I might be inclined to do the same.

However, these things are fairly easy to say, coming from a position primarily of privilege. On the other hand, African-Americans or Latinos (in my area) in the United States deal with substantially more of this, and their overall quality of life is damaged by everyone's small need to feel a little safer in a situation that is most probably not dangerous in the first place. Getting bad looks from a lone woman at night in the middle of a bad area now and then feels pretty rotten; getting these looks from everyone at any time and in any place must take it's toll, don't you think? There's something to be said for standing on principle.

kazelee Wrote:Uh, what!?

That makes no sense. It makes more sense to walk in the street. 3 or more people in any group tend to use group think. Which means they use being in the group as an excuse to do things they normally wouldn't.

The smart choice is to avoid both groups.

The point was obviously that I had to pick one way.

In that situation, whether you were accosted or not has nothing to do with the color of your skin away. Chances are they'd just walk past you. Or if they see you cross they'd go, "what's up with that."

The most important factor is the temperament of the group you pass, not the color of the skin.

No offense, but your "night walking" scenario makes you sound really sheltered and overly analytical. Do you also avoid going outside during a thunderstorm because there is a slight chance you could get hit by lightning? Or do you wear a helmet when you climb the stairs? Seriously, I would never be able to enjoy my life if I let fear dictate every minor life decision. And choosing to walk on a certain side of the street is about as minor as they come. It's not practical. It's just silly.

It is wonderful if you would not give preference to a Japanese national over an American born citizen for employment but most likely your business would take a financial hit over this noble act.

I work at the airport along side those born in Hawaii and others who are born in Japan aiding tourists. Those born in Japan go above and beyond what is asked of them and those born in Hawaii are continuously on smoking breaks or in the bathroom. Being an American myself there is pressure on me to stay on "Hawaiian Time" and relax while the Japanese do all the work.

It is high-minded to not see differences but also naive. Maybe we should all do like was encouraged in the movie Bullworth and "do everyone until we are all the same color" :-)

I hope I did not offend any women by saying I only date Japanese. For what it is worth, Western women are not missing out on anything. I am not really sure how Japanese can stand me. I spend most every waking moment working or studying and haven't even seen a movie in 6 months. All income beyond my basic living expenses goes to a charity I volunteer for so I can't even be counted on for financial stability :-)

kazelee Wrote:In that situation, whether you were accosted or not has nothing to do with the color of your skin away. Chances are they'd just walk past you. Or if they see you cross they'd go, "what's up with that."

The most important factor is the temperament of the group you pass, not the color of the skin.

You're completely missing the point. It's all statistics. If you take 100 groups of whites and 100 groups of arabs, the ratio of violent groups to friendly groups would be completely different. I don't have any solid statistics to back it up, but lets for the example say 10% of the white groups would be looking for fights while 30-40% of the arab gangs would.

It's not about "wearing a helmet while going up the stairs" because I can personally make sure I don't trip and fall, and even if I do, the chance of me hurting my head is almost zero. When I walk past a group of arabs instead of a group of whites when I have to choose, I'm downright stupid. It would be more like deciding whether I should speed up or slow down when I'm in a really complicated and dangerous traffic situation.

"The most important factor is the temperament of the group you pass, not the color of the skin." Yes, unfortunately their temperament is influenced by their culture. It's naive to think otherwise. If statistics say I'm going to get hurt by an arab group and not a white group, I would personally be smart enough not to get to close to the arab group.

Tobberoth Wrote:It's all statistics. If you take 100 groups of whites and 100 groups of arabs, the ratio of violent groups to friendly groups would be completely different. I don't have any solid statistics to back it up, but lets for the example say 10% of the white groups would be looking for fights while 30-40% of the arab gangs would.

....

When I walk past a group of arabs instead of a group of whites when I have to choose,

I would like to see some statistics here..
First saying that it's all statistics and then that you don't have any, sounds a bit fishy..

I really don't think the arab bunch would attack a complete stranger any more than the white one would but it certainly is easier to provoke some groups of people to beat the s**t out of you than others but.. You aren't wearing a jacket with cartoons about Muhammad or something, are you?

[ファブリス]

I really don't like this topic going into "arabs" now, whether it's about a race or culture. For what it's worth a very good friend of mine, an "arab" (born in Belgium but from Moroccan parents), was bullied once in the subway by a group of ... "arabs"!

Likewise, there are other parts of Belgium where you are much more likely to be bullied by "white" people. Lack of education, unemployment, ignorance, stupidity (youth), group behaviour, etc. apply to any race.

There is definitely something to be said about your own attitude. If you feel fear or have a negative sentiment it is going to show on your posture and on your face, and it is in fact going to increase the likelyhood of getting bullied by those groups. So, whatever your statistics are, all these negative assumptions (i.e. racism) don't help.

ファブリス Wrote:I really don't like this topic going into "arabs" now, whether it's about a race or culture. For what it's worth a very good friend of mine, an "arab" (born in Belgium but from Moroccan parents), was bullied once in the subway by a group of ... "arabs"!

Lack of education, unemployment, ignorance, stupidity (youth), group behaviour, etc. apply to any race.

There is definitely something to be said about your own attitude. If you feel fear or have a negative sentiment it is going to show on your posture and on your face, and it is in fact going to increase the likelyhood of getting bullied by those groups. So, whatever your statistics are, racism doesn't help.

I never said racism helped, I'm talking cynically here. This is how people work, like it or not. It isn't about whether or not "arabs" or any other race is worth less than mine, it's the pure simply FACT that different races have different cultures and thus different values and different ways of acting.

I KNOW the VAST MAJORITY of street violence in Malm? (a city in Sweden) involve arabs. I don't care about skin color, what country they were born in or what religion they practice. All I care about is that if the vast majority of violence involves arabs, I know that arabs are a bigger risk to me. I'm not blaming their race, I'm just seeing the relation. Can this problem be solved by screaming "Arabs are evil!"? No. But should it be ignored just because it happens to have a relation to race? No.

Tobberoth Wrote:"The most important factor is the temperament of the group you pass, not the color of the skin." Yes, unfortunately their temperament is influenced by their culture. It's naive to think otherwise. If statistics say I'm going to get hurt by an arab group and not a white group, I would personally be smart enough not to get to close to the arab group.

Let's be realistic for a moment. What society has a culture in which it's people just get together for no reason in a group and accost strangers? The only culture to do so is gang culture (or group think drunks) and they are usually just testing a person's resolve while boosting their own egos. Gangs aren't limited to a specific color or ethnic group. They are everywhere.

There is a greater chance (in America) of a crime happening to an Afrikan-American than any other ethnic group. The chances of a crime happening to a person goes up inverse and/or exponential proportional to income going down. Therefore, it can be concluded that a middle class Caucasian male is at little risk regardless of side of the street he walks on. I have no knowledge of European statistics but I would assume it would be the same on that continent as well.

Don't by into stereotypes. Especially, not stereotypes of crime perpetration.

kazelee Wrote:Let's be realistic for a moment. What society has a culture in which it's people just get together for no reason in a group and accost strangers? The only culture to do so is gang culture (or group think drunks) and they are usually just testing a person's resolve while boosting their own egos. Gangs aren't limited to a specific color or ethnic group. They are everywhere.

There is a greater chance (in America) of a crime happening to an Afrikan-American than any other ethnic group. The chances of a crime happening to a person goes up inverse and/or exponential proportional to income going down. Therefore, it can be concluded that a middle class Caucasian male is at little risk regardless of side of the street he walks on. I have no knowledge of European statistics but I would assume it would be the same on that continent as well.

Don't by into stereotypes. Especially, not stereotypes of crime perpetration.

Unfortunately, this isn't a stereotype in Sweden. It is fact. I know several white people who have, for no reason, been attacked in Malm?. In ALL cases, the perpetrators were non-swedes. While you can stay in your utopian state of mind and claim it could have just as well been swedes who did it, fact remains it wasn't and it almost never is. Sure, I've been attacked by Swedes, I'm hardly saying it never happens, but it's WAY more uncommon and in those situations, there's almost always SOME arabs in those groups as well. In Sweden, the vast majority of gangs are made up of Arabs because they feel segregated from the rest, especially in Malm? where the integration is so extremely bad. Like I said, I'm not putting the cause in the race, i'm putting it in culture. Whos fault it is, is irrelevant. If there's a higher risk of a perpretator being arab, it's common sense to feel safer among non-arabs, and that's why racism is a part of human life as long as cultures differ.

[ファブリス]

@Tobberoth: But you say "their temperament is influenced by their culture". This is a dangerous statement. First you have to consider who are "they", whose culture are we talking about? Probably you are thinking about "arabs" who live in your town or your country. This cultural/social group is different than the one which lives in their own country. Or you will be making a broad generalization by comparing groups of "whites" and "arabs" by ignoring all the environmental factors like I said: unemployment, lack of education, etc. Even their cultural values results in different outcomes for those who live in their country and those who live here.

I am not blaming you, we should all do what we think is most appropriate in any situation, with what we have learned. I have myself being bullied once by "arabs" here in Brussels in the subway too. I also don't feel very secure if I walk past a group of those guys in the street, in some parts of town. These guys are young and stupid, they're noisy as hell, and seem to have no respect for anything. And yet I refuse to make generalizations because I see behaviour that could apply anywhere else in the world with the same conditions, the same environment. Is a baby "arab" born with the will to bully people? It is very dangerous to entertain those negative assumptions about different groups of people, because they will shape your emotions,and your emotions will shape your actions. Soon enough, you will be another one of those dumbasses voting for the extreme right here, promoting hate and discrimination.

If you get a small group of people from one culture and put them amongst a larger group of people of another culture, then the small group will automatically be disadvantaged. This disadvantage is what usually drives minorities into crime, violence, hatred etc. Immigrants to another country often have less language, less skills, less money, less education etc. than the natives, and from these deficits come problems.

The point is, it's not so much because the groups of people mentioned above are 'arabs' or any other race or culture, it's just because they are the minority that they often get into a bad way of life.

Tobberoth Wrote:While you can stay in your utopian state of mind and claim it could have just as well been swedes who did it, fact remains it wasn't and it almost never is. Sure, I've been attacked by Swedes, I'm hardly saying it never happens, but it's WAY more uncommon and in those situations, there's almost always SOME arabs in those groups as well.

I don't really have the liberty of living in a Utopian state of mind.

What I'm saying is that culture has less to do with it and more economic status. You're entitled to make whatever snap judgments you want. In certain situations they can be helpful. You are a smart person, and you should realize that these assumptions can be part of the problem.

People pick up on it when they are judged. How they respond to it can't be predicted. A large wall of assumptions and judgments on both sides perpetuates conflict.

ファブリス Wrote:Is a baby "arab" born with the will to bully people?

It seems you and I agree mostly, we're just wording it differently. If I ever made it seem like I think arabs are inately bad or willing to bully people, I have to apologize because that's pretty much as far as it gets from what I mean. What I'm saying is that there are subcultures in our society and some of them are dangerous. Many arabs in Sweden are part of a certain subculture, which is dangerous. As you can't simply ask them "Are you one of those people who like hitting other people?", you have to go by something else, and you automatically go by them being arabs. Not because you think every arab is a criminal, but because you think that many arabs in Sweden are part of a subculture which IS criminal. You might be saying to yourself "There's a 20% chance that Arab is a criminal, I should watch out". Look at that procentage there. 20% is a farcry from a baby being born with a will to do harm. This is just when you're walking down the street, I'm not saying you should judge all arabs on 20% of all arabs when you're employing people, that would be wrong and stupid. Especially since you in an employment situation have the ability to learn about the individual, you don't have to include any form of assumptions at all.

Maybe Sweden is different, but I will relate my experiences walking around aimlessly at night here in the US.

Since I was 16 years old, I suffered severe anxiety at night and to relieve it I would put on headphones and walk around my small Midwestern USA town until I exhausted myself. Unsurprisingly, I never had a problem with people bothering me there.

For the last several years, I have lived downtown in Sacramento, the capitol of California. For the first year and a half, I lived next to a Salvation Army adult rehab center and a small park. Seeing homeless people passed out on the street, foraging through trash, and begging for change were daily sights. My daily commute to college involved taking the light rail commuter train four blocks away. This is known as the Alkali Flats stop and is well known in my area as a place that crack cocaine is sold nearly 24 hours a day by street gangs. They are easily recognized by their matching colored shirts, occasional bandanas, and their tendency to suggest a purchase of crack cocaine. I have made small talk with these people, asked the time, and even asked twice if they sell weed (which is nearly decriminalized here and available by loose medical recommendation anyway). Street gangs do commit most unpremeditated acts of violence in my city but it is almost always directed at rival gangs who are trying to edge in upon drug-selling turf or botched drug deals where attempted theft occurs. Like almost everybody in society, if you respect them, they will usually respect you. The worst thing they have ever done to me is repeatedly bum cigarettes! Keep in mind though that these are almost always guys with deeply troubled pasts who will be more aggressive than usual if you mess with them.

Now I live about 8 blocks away from the state Capitol building, and nearly every weekend I drink between 12 to 15 beers and walk to the Capitol to see it lit up at night (usually after 1 or 2 in the morning). It's beatiful and there is a nice big park next to it.

On a trip last year to New Orleans, I spent a week walking all over the town by myself including sites like the French Quarter, garden district, and St. Louis Cemetery. I had read so many scary travel articles before going that claimed there were many random muggings and that New Orleans was the "Iraq of the USA.". Even I was a little afraid at first, but everybody was so super-friendly there that I quickly forgot everything I read, although locals, including a homeless black man who I befriended and got drunk with, kept telling me to avoid walking in the projects a bit past the cemetary, and so I heeded their advice.

I have only been physically accosted twice in my adult life (I am 27 now) and both times they have been unexpected irrational encounters by heavily inebriated men in bars looking to pick fights. Never once on the streets or the public transportation that I take everywhere.

I could go on and on, but the moral of the story is that, if you have ever had a bad random street experience (at least here in the US), it was most probably either a freak ultra-rare thing, or you either inadvertently or intentionally did something wrong or that could be interpreted as an insult, or you were really in an area you shouldn't be in. A man was shot here in Sacramento just a few weeks ago by a homeless woman who was begging for change, but only after he insulted her by telling her to get a job instead. I would also recommend walking with confidence as somebody already mentioned. If somebody sees you crossing the street to avoid them, this could be interpreted as an insult and is probably more likely to get you harassed.

I used to have fears of some of the same things you guys are describing here, but I felt so much more empowered and positive about life once I got out more and faced these fears. Coming from a person with a severe anxiety disorder, i can tell you that irrational fear really is a force that drags you down and limits your ability to experience the fullness of life.

Well said...

ファブリス Wrote:I really don't like this topic going into "arabs" now, whether it's about a race or culture. For what it's worth a very good friend of mine, an "arab" (born in Belgium but from Moroccan parents), was bullied once in the subway by a group of ... "arabs"!

Likewise, there are other parts of Belgium where you are much more likely to be bullied by "white" people. Lack of education, unemployment, ignorance, stupidity (youth), group behaviour, etc. apply to any race.

Amen that. I only had problems in Schaerbeek once, never had a problem in Brussels when I lived there. The only problems I had with "arabs" was to be blamed on "kids trying to play it rough to get street cred", said kids were promptly handled by their older siblings... both in Schaerbeek and in Droixhe.

The same cannot be said about the racism we encountered in Antwerp, in Brugge or even in my hometown in the south of Luxembourg.

We do suffer from less racism now that we live in Germany

Its funny... My prejudice is that I've always considered Arab areas to be about as safe as it get where I live.

[ファブリス]

[Disclaimer: totally out of topic ]

Dragg Wrote:Coming from a person with a severe anxiety disorder, i can tell you that irrational fear really is a force that drags you down and limits your ability to experience the fullness of life.

Have you ever tried a 10-day Vipassana course?

I was also suffering from anxiety since a child. It reached a peak in around 2000 and I had a depression in 2001. Thankfully I've never been good at drinking, but there was a point where I drank a bottle of cheap wine at mid-day because the anxiety was almost unbearable. Nobody can see it, nobody understands, it's just your own self-made hell. Doctors don't understand either, those psychos just want to fill you up with medicines and turn you into another zombie. So much for "science". Psychologists... maybe... but even their help is limited, they only address symptoms.

Around 2005 my anxiety was raising again and after hearing a lot of good about it, I went to a 10-day Vipassana retreat, the ones from "Goenka". Those 10 days are among the best days I've ever spent in my life. I was so desperate I tried to apply myself and make the most of it, up to 9h of meditation per day. It was hard. It wasn't panacea either. After the retreat I continued to meditate 1h morning and 1h evening for several months. Now I am feeling far far better. I don't drink or take any medicines. Anxiety is gone for the most part.

The 10 day Vipassana courses are given for free all around the world. They are run by volunteers and by the donations from people who have gotten something out of it. Teachers are all ancient students (many, many years). The courses from "Goeanka" teach a method of Vipassana where you observe the body, rather than the thoughts. It is easier to do, and it works just as well (for reasons he explains in length in the talks you can listen to during the course, and which of course you have to practice and verify by yourself).

After those 10 days you will have experienced probably the most calm and peaceful state of mind ever... you will love the sound of that bell. It was really hard for me. I had tons of negative images coming up during the meditations... I also had one very vivid nightmare. It's a big "mental clean up". It can stir up some old emotions, I heard people cry there in the hall... but it is all release. At the end of the 10 days everybody is smiling. For some people it is a permanent release. I shared a room there with an ex-alcoholic. He came a 2nd time with his girlfriend. For some people it also clears physical pains like pain in the back, or knee, ... headaches (because many of those are tied to mental "knots"). All sorts of people, I was surprised that there were many young people too. Also after those 10 days when you go back to the rush of the city it is very strange It's noisy and agitated all around and you feel like you are very present, very aware, and yet completely unaffected, it feels great but it only last a couple days. After that it is your own call whether you continue to meditate daily at your home as they recommened or stop altogether. If you can live 10 days without addictive substances (tobacco, alcohol, ... ) it is absolutely worth it.

It is an experience absolutely unique and personally I believe everyone should try it once!

As for anxiety at night.. actually from the course I started doing something that brought me complete rest now when I sleep. This may be hard if you never tried meditation I don't know.. You lie down flat on your back, purposely, so as not to fall asleep too easily. Once you are comfortable you then lie there like a stone, without moving ANYTHING. Only your chest for breathing. You can NOT scratch. You have to stay absolutely paralysed for as long as you can take it, and when the urge to move legs come (you might feel stress mostly in the legs), you have to learn to observe the unpleasant sensations without reacting. Hence not moving. When I started doing this I remember once I had a wave of stress coming from my feet so strong I felt shaken for a moment. But dont grind teeth or fight it. You have to observe how all sensations just come and go. If you don't have serious stress or anxiety it may seem easy of course..
Anyway now I never feel any stress when I lie down, I think I've done that sometimes up to an hour. In fact it can become very restful, even though you are awake

Best advise ever on a Japanese language forum!