Hello, this is my first post. First off, I love this site, as it provides a sense of the community progressing with you, and also aiding you with helpful advice an stories for each Kanji learned.

As for my question, this is my 4th day on my Joyo Kanji learning adventure. I do an average of 30 Kanji daily, and I am very strict to it, 20 at least if it is a bad day. I love learning them, but I will admit that it gets frustrating when I go through 10 Kanji as they are more complicated in the 60s+, and can't seem to remember a lot of them when I take the test.

I have now* dropped down to doing increments of 5 Kanji per testing. Meaning I would add 5 cards, study them, then take the test usually achieving 95-100%. I can no longer do sets of 10 without having studied for 30 minutes or more straight. If I do 5, I can manage a 10 minute study time and ace the test. I sort of feel like some of the kanji isn't getting as much attention.

Back when I was doing early Kanji, it wasn't as difficult to take 10-20 at a time and acing a test. Now with more primitives, it becomes complicated (for me) to advance doing sets of 10, then a test.

Any advice? If this is difficult to understand, I would be happy to re-explain.

Thanks guys!

+Candy Cane

What I did to maintain my 50/day schedule:

1. I made it a habit to do my daily memorizing at the same time everyday. This helped a lot.
2. I used a victory board:

3. I ignored retention rates.

alyks: You need one of those "hang in there" cat posters next to it.
I've never seen anyone actually use motivational phrases in real life.

My motivation was wanting to continue studying other stuff (I already had a lot of Japanese under my belt before starting) but restricting myself to RTK until it was done.

Alyks, I really admire your motivational approach, as I do the same thing. I love how you have that phrase at the bottom, hah. I laugh because I do the same thing, thinking no one else does it. Every time someone enters the room, I attempt to run them out or hide it.

I will follow your 'way' and see how I turn out. I am sure I will be fine, probably just over-worrying which is what I tend to do a lot. Not good for me or my learning progress I know.

+CandyCane

CandyCane Wrote:Alyks, I really admire your motivational approach, as I do the same thing. I love how you have that phrase at the bottom, hah. I laugh because I do the same thing, thinking no one else does it. Every time someone enters the room, I attempt to run them out or hide it.

I will follow your 'way' and see how I turn out. I am sure I will be fine, probably just over-worrying which is what I tend to do a lot. Not good for me or my learning progress I know.

+CandyCane

Actually, it only said that for a short while. Most of the time it said "Totally screw up your Japanese teacher's world view. How? Keep going!"

Let me ask one more thing, directed to you Alyks. When reviewing new cards, how many times do you write them out to remember them? Yes I know the importance of stories, but I understand writing them+reinforcing the story at the same time may be a better approach.

+CandyCane

I don't, really. There are probably some kanji I know and can write out, but have never actually *written out*. Most of the time I just visualize the element placing. This is partly because it's faster, but mostly because I'm lazy.

I don't think it's necessary to write them out at all to memorize them when you're learning them like this, based on my personal experiences. I'm sure some other members here will be able to write more on the subject.

Most people recommend writing it once. I usually write it between one and three times, just because I tend to take a second to mull over it after I've already gotten it (refresh my mind), and while I'm doing that my hand kindof just keeps going.
That's when reviewing, mind. When learning, I did the same thing, but ended up writing it down a lot more since I'd take a long time thinking up the story, writing the whole time (unconsciously).
On the other hand, now that I'm done with RTK, and I don't actually use stories or any mnemonics anymore, I don't even write kanji when I first see them. I only write them when they pop up in sentences I'm reviewing for production, when I feel like writing them out (which isn't all the time). It hasn't affected my retention, so...
But, yeah... one is enough.

I only wrote when reviewing on revtk, never when I was actually learning.

I'm currently doing 20 kanji a day and I am now on 560 kanji. I started on the 7th of September with a couple days doing 30 or 40 kanji.

The current process I have now is that I do my 20 kanji each day, every day. I suggest that you get a designated work area for your "kanji stuff." My desk is nice in that it has a second tabletop that I can slide out (it is essentially a glorified keyboard shelf) and have my RTK book on with some paper to work from. I also did a Google search for "Graph Paper Generator" and found one and printed a dozen pages of graph paper. Somehow writing on those tiny squares keeps me going because I'm so excited to switch to a fresh piece of paper after they're all filled.

When I study my kanji, I look at the keyword and the shape of the kanji in the book and then come to this site for a story. When I find one I like (or create my own), I draw the kanji in the air with my finger while repeating the story to myself as I write the primitives in it. I then write a large, clear version of the kanji on a regular lined sheet of "scrap paper," again repeating the story to myself as I write it. I then write it on the little graph paper square and move to the next story. This generally works well for me.

When I've finished doing my 20, I update my RTK stack with my new cards but I do not review them until the next day. After that, I open an Excel calendar I've been keeping and write down how many I've done that day. It's really motivating to see the days fill up with the amount of kanji I've learned that day, as well as how many reviews I've done that day (which I do before going to bed).

Finally, I have a laminated poster with all the RTK kanji in order on it. After I've updated my stacks here from studying, I sit down at my bed with it and a dry erase marker and start to iterate through the kanji. I will write the kanji with the marker right over the printed kanji while trying to recall the story that I have associated with that kanji, and the word eventually comes to me. I find that this context-switch of studying is good for helping it solidify in my mind, as well as being a colorful visual indicator of my success.


I guess to summarize this whole thing, I suggest coming up with a formula, and a way of visual charting your success. It is really motivating to open your calendar and see how much work you've done each day. It's hard to break the streak when you've been doing it for a month!

Yes Codiferous, I mark my daily progress as well. It makes it difficult to "break the chain". I recommend anyone looking for a good external motivator, google breaking the chain by Jerry Seinfeld. Also, you taught me an effective way to solidify my stories in my head, the part where you said to draw each primitive in the air while explaining the story.

Thanks guys for the answers, all of you really helped me.

The other thing that worries me is that I do them in spurts of 5, then do the test, move on to the next 5, etc. I'm afraid I am not learning properly.

+CandyCane

CandyCane Wrote:Yes Codiferous, 吾 mark my daily progress as 井ell. It makes it 難ifficult to "break the 鎖hain". 吾 薦ecommend anyone looking for a 良ood external motivator, google breaking the 鎖hain by Jerry Seinfeld. Also, you taught 僕e an effective way to solidify my stories 中n my head, the 分術rt where you said to draw 各ach primitive 中n the air while explaining the 階tory.

Thanks guys for the answers, 皆ll 之f you really helped 僕e.

The 他ther 物hing that worries 僕e is that 吾 為o them 中n spurts 之f 5, then 為o the test, 動ove on to the 次ext 5, 等tc. 吾'm afraid 吾 am 勿ot learning properly.

+CandyCane

吾 為o it 5's, and 吾 着on't feel like 吾'm doing it wrong >_>

If you wanted to know, my retention rates are usually 85-95% a 日ay, and I'm at 1650 kanji so far.

My personal schedule:

Morning (as soon as possible):
Review all my expired cards. (Usually between 40 and 60 kanji).
Midday/Noon:
Do my previously added kanji and check my failed pile if it's there.
Study 10 kanji and insert.
Evening:
Study 10 kanji and insert.


And that's it. So I never insert a kanji and study it at the same day (I still have 100% retention most of the time since I really let myself take my time when doing the stories). I also do not fix my failed pile at the same time as when I failed it, I let it sink in for a while first.

CandyCane, I'd recommend just getting down to it. It'll probably take you until around frame number 300-400 before you settle into your own groove.

First things first: no offense to Heisig, but dump his stories right now. Seriously. Use the book for reference and stories for primitives, but that's it. Heisig's life is not yours, and you will notice HUGE improvements by making your stories just that: your OWN stories. If you're stuck trying to come up with a story, use the submissions on this site. Heisig's stories should be your absolute last resort.

Don't worry about only studying 5 frames at a time. I tried doing that, too (because of the same perceived benefit you believe it provides), but found that it honestly didn't help my retention rate (retention rate for 20-at-a-time was the same as 5-at-a-time). More important than how MANY you're tackling at a time is when/where/what-kind-of-distractions. If you can't concentrate, you're not gonna remember anything. As long as you are getting around 75-100% retention rates during review, don't sweat it. The review-->fail-->learn-from-failure process is supposed to help you weed out those stories that you know (and thus don't need to bother your mind with) versus those that you don't (and thus should be focusing your energy on). Don't test your newly-added cards too quickly after studying, either. That just reinforces your short-term memory. Test them the next day (24 hours later). If you fail all of them, that's fine -- it just shows that you need better stories, 'cause the ones you got ain't stickin'.

Don't write the kanji more than twice during the learning stage. More than this and you're just wasting time. Write each kanji on paper (not just in the air or on your palm) during the review -- the visual feedback will help your brain notice mistakes -- but only write a kanji a second time if it's *really* tricky for some reason.

If for some reason, you're finding your fail pile growing by leaps and bounds, it's a sure sign that you're not making stories that are memorable. Make sure not to confuse a catchy phrase with a visual story -- occasionally catchy phrases do work, but use them ever-so-sparingly.

Try not to think of the pass percentage during the review in the same sphere as a test. It's more like playing music. When you make a mistake on a test, you usually think "oh crap, well, whatever...next time". Reviewing the Kanji isn't like that at all. When you make a mistake while playing music, you go back and TWEAK how you played a note/section. That's what you should be doing. You should be finding your mistakes and tweaking the things that aren't working. You'll likely even to find yourself going back to tweak frames that you studied weeks/months ago, just because you later figured out how to make it better.

I found that I wasn't letting some of the keywords play an active role in my Kanji stories, some of them were just passive. For example; "Two joint sunflowers awaking early to say goodbye to the moon, bringing morning" for the kanji 'Morning'. This had little to do with morning, and wouldn't help me remember it if I only saw the keyword. So I expect to fail a good amount of them, and I will better recreate my stories to allow the keywords an active role.

Also I wasn't studying then testing the next day, I was studying, then doing the test. Thanks for that tip, it really helps me.

+CandyCane

To help with retention of your stories, I would suggest you take the time to fully visualize them in your mind while saying your story. Using your example for morning, I would close my eyes and visualize a misty morning, to the left you can see the sunlight glinting through the mist (with the beams of light above and below the sun glinting in the shape of the kanji for needle/ten), and to the right you can see the moon just disappearing behind the horizon, and instead of the "Man in the Moon," the moon has 月 printed on it. If you take the time to place yourself within this scene, visualizing it fully in your head while saying your story, you'll have a visual memory associate with the kanji in case you can't remember a keyword in your story. For particularly difficult kanji, I will also visualize the pieces of the kanji within the scene, like picturing the "mist" kanji right over the sun, and visualizing the word "morning floating in the sky in very large letters - (letters which I picture as being lit by the misty morning light on the left and that of a waning moon on the right - ha ha).

I also write them out when I learn them and when I "answer" when I review them - I think it helps in retaining them. If you've written something a few times it helps you get the feel for the placement of the primitives. That way you have some muscle memory as well as your visual memory and mnemonic memory to draw from.

Don't put yourself in too much of a rush - whatever pace is best for you is what you should do. It's not going to do you much good to rush ahead too fast while forgetting Many of the later kanji are built from the earlier ones, so I find that it's been best for me to get them really solid in my memory before progressing.

You are correct about that Davis. I find myself forgetting many of the 30 I study sometimes, I think I need to slow it down a bit and make it more concrete.

I've encountered the same problem as candycane, in not making the keyword the active part of each story, and have had to correct many stories (currently in the 700s).

I just couldn't handle 30 a day. I went up to about 15 a day and found myself quickly avalanched by reviews and couldn't put the time in to make stories stick, so my retention went way down. I've had to drop it a bit further still, and am still working at making a good 150 kanji done during that period stick. But it's more manageable now.

well, ive only JUST started the other day, but my plan, also for 30 a day is:
1. wake up
2. review 30 from day before
3. eat & brush my teeth
4. learn 15 (either 15 right off, or broken up into chunks of 5 with mini testing if they are hard)
5. take dog for a walk, ala cesar milan
6. test - i also write out the answer and keyword
7. continue with my day
8. before bed, i do the same with another 15, but broken up with evening type things

i read somewhere in my 2345234234 bookmarks on learning japanese, that you tend to remember more from study in the morning and just before bed
i needed to learn 24/day in order to learn them all by new years, so im trying for 30, i may do 40 or 50 on days when i have a LOT of free time, or they are coming to me easier.. this is to make up for the days further down where it seems people have a harder time keeping up a pace
so hopefully, itll all still finish out by new years



btw, any crazy good programmers out there
would it be possible to make a flash card type program where its more like a cube on yer screen
and you randomly get 1 side of the cube
with the sides broken down into: kanji/composed of primitives.../english meaning/user input for their story
ok so a 4 sided.. err.. cube
and to review youd hit like "shuffle" and all ur words would show up in ONE of the above forms, and youd have to think of the others?

that may not have made any sense, and in fact it might need to be in its own topic.. doh!

I'm certainly not the most qualified to give advice on RTK since I'm only nearing the 1000 mark myself, but I can hopefully offer a few pointers to you nonetheless.

I have gone through periods where I've added between 20 and 50 new kanji a day. To keep up the pace, perhaps one day I'll slack off and not review expired kanji. Then, perhaps, I'll avoid testing the new cards I added until a few days after. Pretty soon it's been a few days since I've done any sort of substantial review, and lo-and-behold, when I do finally get around to reviewing properly, my retention is awful. My advice, then, is quite simple.

Study your 30 new kanji (don't rush through them, of course) and write them on some handmade flashcards. Leave them and return ten minutes later to see what your retention is like and if you have forgotten any then study the appropriate ones and leave them again. Then return in perhaps an hour and check again. Then once in the evening. If you have sorted out your new kanji up to here, then add them to your stack here and test them the very next day without fail. This should help you get a good initial grip on the kanji.

That aside, just make sure you keep up with any expired cards and do not allow failed kanji to just sit there. Try a story, put it back in there. If it fails again then so be it; the worst thing you can do is leave them there stagnating.

Hope that helps pal.

I think writing the kanji is very important.

Kanji were designed to be written. They are a written art form. You need to practice and practice to learn to write them well. Pay attention to relative sizes and positions of primitives and try to keep them nicely arranged in their square, especially more complicated ones.

Writing is also a useful aid to memorization. Now since you're using imaginary scenes and stories as the mnemonic device, I would agree that writing a kanji twice while you're learning them is probably the optimum, max four times for a complicated one.

One word of caution. If you're finding a kanji difficult to write one, i.e., to put it together neatly, then by all means practice your heart out until it comes out looking right. However, if you're finding yourself writing it out over and over because it's difficult to remember, then the problem is that your mnemonic is wrong. You need to come up with a memorable story, scene, sentence, something that helps you link up the pieces with the meaning (or at least the keyword). Writing primarily for the purpose of memorization might work for a small alphabet, but it won't for learning 2000+ kanji.

I totaly agree. Heisig himself advises that. I do it once for every review and my handwriting is getting neater. It was very ugly in the beggining. Now it is better, but it is still far from perfect.

About your pace. I did not followed that. Somedays I did none and somedays I was doing 100. Maybe that's why it was so painful. A good pace seems a good idea.

I guess some mistake erased my earlier post.

Anki can work like the cube thing you want. You just have to setup 4 models for your cards.

I used to write each of them out, then I stopped because I was lazy. Then I realized that it was taking me more time to draw them with a finger in the air than it did to actually write them. Plus if you write them you can more reliably check if you answered it correctly.

Candy, the best piece of advice that I can give a beginner is to make sure you have really poignant images or stories even for the ones that seem very easy now, and make sure that it incorporates the EXACT keyword. Later you'll have some with almost identical keywords and that'll trip you up.

If I could give one piece of advice, it would be never ever ever learn less than one new kanji per day.