How would you say this compares with iKnow's sentences?
2009-02-18, 9:50 am
Bought this book when I was in japan last year as one of my teacher was a big advocater of the method. I was pretty intense on it for a couple of month and then... nothing. I got nowhere and I'm afraid I forgot most of those insignificant piece of conversation . There's no structure whatsoever , obviously no specific interest in the material , it's divided in 5 level of difficulties but this division is a bit arbitrary and what is more bothersome it doesn't cover enough ground to be decisive (when it comes to kanji for instance KO2001 is not something that I would qualifiy "engrossing" nevertheless it's damn efficient. Same thing goes for RTK and you can even get some laugh with this latter)
I would say it's useful for having SOME reflexes, some very nice sentences you learn by heart.... but that's the kind of thing you can get and at a way higher level if you're really into the AJATT method , especially now with subs2srs . The little chit chat... take a casual highschool anime and break it with subs2srs to get all those little lines that makes a conversation lively . You don't need this book which can make you look like fluent for ....10 seconds to 1 minute (optimistic point of view) . The extent and depth are just too narrow. You need thousands and thousands of little expression to have real fluency .
I pass on that and I would disadvise anyone from spending some bucks on it . It's like most of the japanese book : not bad but not seminal . Except if you got load of cash and time you've got investment with better rate .
> nest0r
To answer your post post , I never USED I know (don't intend to either after KO2001 but I find it some real value though) but I took a look at it and it's just totally different . Shadowing aims at some kind of verbal fluency (very limited I must say.see above) . Iknow aims at a more general result in proficency . Iknow could be a rival to KO2001 (and KO2001 would win hands down
) not to shadowing.
As far as I'm concerned one should have real motives and very ACCURATE OBJECTIVES to use grammar/kanji/formal book . Otherwise it's about learning general japanese and the REAL japanese (newspaper , drama , anime , technical books , forums, etc....) is just better . In my opinion so far I've only found two books that are definetely in the first category : RTK and KO2001 . Otherwise you have to set clear goals : if you want to learn keigos then OK you can buy keigo books , if you want to pass JLPT OK you can buy unicom's , kanzen , etc.... whatever . Shadowing is NOT a subtitute to real stuff so there is no real goal and interest in buying this book.
I would say it's useful for having SOME reflexes, some very nice sentences you learn by heart.... but that's the kind of thing you can get and at a way higher level if you're really into the AJATT method , especially now with subs2srs . The little chit chat... take a casual highschool anime and break it with subs2srs to get all those little lines that makes a conversation lively . You don't need this book which can make you look like fluent for ....10 seconds to 1 minute (optimistic point of view) . The extent and depth are just too narrow. You need thousands and thousands of little expression to have real fluency .
I pass on that and I would disadvise anyone from spending some bucks on it . It's like most of the japanese book : not bad but not seminal . Except if you got load of cash and time you've got investment with better rate .
> nest0r
To answer your post post , I never USED I know (don't intend to either after KO2001 but I find it some real value though) but I took a look at it and it's just totally different . Shadowing aims at some kind of verbal fluency (very limited I must say.see above) . Iknow aims at a more general result in proficency . Iknow could be a rival to KO2001 (and KO2001 would win hands down
) not to shadowing.As far as I'm concerned one should have real motives and very ACCURATE OBJECTIVES to use grammar/kanji/formal book . Otherwise it's about learning general japanese and the REAL japanese (newspaper , drama , anime , technical books , forums, etc....) is just better . In my opinion so far I've only found two books that are definetely in the first category : RTK and KO2001 . Otherwise you have to set clear goals : if you want to learn keigos then OK you can buy keigo books , if you want to pass JLPT OK you can buy unicom's , kanzen , etc.... whatever . Shadowing is NOT a subtitute to real stuff so there is no real goal and interest in buying this book.
Edited: 2009-02-18, 10:08 am
2009-02-18, 3:29 pm
Ghinzdra your post doesn't really make that much sense to me. You say you "forgot" most of the conversations in this? Why were you memorizing them in the first place?
You also say it has no structure? I argue that it has all the structure it needs for beginner level material. It's divided into 5 sections based around general grammar constructs. Besides this is book/CD isn't supposed to be a pure grammar book or a huge vocabulary builder.
What it IS designed for is building a really good listening/pronunciation foundation for beginners by using very natural and full speed Japanese. From my use it has done exactly that. I'm still at a VERY beginners level when it comes to grammar and listening to this CD (I have ripped some of it to MP3) has gone along perfectly with my grammar studies. Listening to just the first few lessons I immediately started hearing those same constructs all over the place in "real" Japanese speech (TV shows, movies, etc). I'm not sure what more one could ask for.
IMO I now believe the best way to use this book is to just forget SRS'ing it. Do your grammar SRS'ing and vocabulary building with whatever material you are currently enjoying but then use the audio that comes along with this to reinforce those concepts and train your listening ability. Rip it to MP3, put it on shuffle and then just let it play.
You also say it has no structure? I argue that it has all the structure it needs for beginner level material. It's divided into 5 sections based around general grammar constructs. Besides this is book/CD isn't supposed to be a pure grammar book or a huge vocabulary builder.
What it IS designed for is building a really good listening/pronunciation foundation for beginners by using very natural and full speed Japanese. From my use it has done exactly that. I'm still at a VERY beginners level when it comes to grammar and listening to this CD (I have ripped some of it to MP3) has gone along perfectly with my grammar studies. Listening to just the first few lessons I immediately started hearing those same constructs all over the place in "real" Japanese speech (TV shows, movies, etc). I'm not sure what more one could ask for.
IMO I now believe the best way to use this book is to just forget SRS'ing it. Do your grammar SRS'ing and vocabulary building with whatever material you are currently enjoying but then use the audio that comes along with this to reinforce those concepts and train your listening ability. Rip it to MP3, put it on shuffle and then just let it play.
Edited: 2009-02-18, 3:30 pm
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2009-02-18, 3:41 pm
The reason I asked how it compares to iKnow, I was just wondering, in the past tense, whether I would have preferred it to iKnow--for me, iKnow's primary function is providing audio that I can imitate in clear, native voices that are professionally attuned to emotive speech, and it happened to be in basic sentences so I could get vocabulary and polish my basic grammar all in one go with the audio aspects. So I was mostly curious about how 'natural' the folks reading the sentences were in this book, that is, I know native speakers of English who can't read aloud properly at all, who mumble or sound awkward when they're consciously trying to be clear for an audience (recorded or otherwise), et cetera.
And of course the nature of the sentences, is there some special way they're oriented to shadowing that makes them more suitable than the structure of the iKnow sentences, something to differentiate them and make the price worthwhile (versus iKnow being free). I am asking not for my benefit but for purposes of recommendations to others and for kicking myself in hindsight, perhaps. The speed, for example, is that different? I heard iKnow is slower than usual?
For me, shadowing seems to have a 'non-SRS' kind of feel so I somewhat see it different from what I do with shadowing sentences in Anki, but I prefer to incorporate that sort of thing into my SRSing, except of course when aiming for lengthier speeches and such (and even then I'm working out a plan to integrate more extensive speaking practice into Anki).
And of course the nature of the sentences, is there some special way they're oriented to shadowing that makes them more suitable than the structure of the iKnow sentences, something to differentiate them and make the price worthwhile (versus iKnow being free). I am asking not for my benefit but for purposes of recommendations to others and for kicking myself in hindsight, perhaps. The speed, for example, is that different? I heard iKnow is slower than usual?
For me, shadowing seems to have a 'non-SRS' kind of feel so I somewhat see it different from what I do with shadowing sentences in Anki, but I prefer to incorporate that sort of thing into my SRSing, except of course when aiming for lengthier speeches and such (and even then I'm working out a plan to integrate more extensive speaking practice into Anki).
Edited: 2009-02-18, 3:44 pm
2009-02-18, 3:51 pm
Well I only give point of view sometimes advices when I practiced something extensively (for instance RTK it works ) . But I'm not willing to cripple anyone's progress on the contrary .
So what I can do for you nestor as I own the book , if you're REALLY interested into shadowing , is rip some tracks , upload them on a fileshare website and give you the adress so that you might make your own opinion . A sample to know what you're buying.
It's up to you.
) . But I'm not willing to cripple anyone's progress on the contrary . So what I can do for you nestor as I own the book , if you're REALLY interested into shadowing , is rip some tracks , upload them on a fileshare website and give you the adress so that you might make your own opinion . A sample to know what you're buying.
It's up to you.
Edited: 2009-02-18, 3:53 pm
2009-02-18, 4:01 pm
activeaero Wrote:Ghinzdra your post doesn't really make that much sense to me. You say you "forgot" most of the conversations in this? [/b]Why were you memorizing them in the first place? [/b][/b]Why were you memorizing them in the first place? [/b]
You also say it has no structure? I argue that it has all the structure it needs for beginner level material. It's divided into 5 sections based around general grammar constructs. Besides this is book/CD isn't supposed to be a pure grammar book or a huge vocabulary builder.
What it IS designed for is building a really good listening/pronunciation foundation for beginners by using very natural and full speed Japanese. From my use it has done exactly that. I'm still at a VERY beginners level when it comes to grammar and listening to this CD (I have ripped some of it to MP3) has gone along perfectly with my grammar studies. Listening to just the first few lessons I immediately started hearing those same constructs all over the place in "real" Japanese speech (TV shows, movies, etc). I'm not sure what more one could ask for.
IMO I now believe the best way to use this book is to just forget SRS'ing it. Do your grammar SRS'ing and vocabulary building with whatever material you are currently enjoying but then use the audio that comes along with this to reinforce those concepts and train your listening ability. Rip it to MP3, put it on shuffle and then just let it play.
well I don't know ... maybe because it's written both in japanese and english that the eventual goal is that dialogue "really becomes part of your japenese and (that ) you'll be able to use it properly in real life situation"
I'm a bit naive .I'm likely to believe what I read
sorry just teasing.
I agree there are other goals and intermediate steps , I also agree that it's some good japanese , very casual , very natural . But I still think that it's unefficient. And DEFINETELY NOT FUNNY. And I want at least one of them :efficience or fun (i'm not learning as much japanese when I'm playing my DS as some other activies but i'm still learning and this a real leasure for me ,tons and tons of fun . ) . And both is better (AJATT.....) .
Edited: 2009-02-18, 4:02 pm
2009-02-18, 4:02 pm
nest0r Wrote:The reason I asked how it compares to iKnow, I was just wondering, in the past tense, whether I would have preferred it to iKnow--for me, iKnow's primary function is providing audio that I can imitate in clear, native voices that are professionally attuned to emotive speech, and it happened to be in basic sentences so I could get vocabulary and polish my basic grammar all in one go with the audio aspects. So I was mostly curious about how 'natural' the folks reading the sentences were in this book, that is, I know native speakers of English who can't read aloud properly at all, who mumble or sound awkward when they're consciously trying to be clear for an audience (recorded or otherwise), et cetera.Take this from the perspective of a beginner, but I'm sure others that have used it will agree, the speech is about as natural as it gets. IMO the audio is much superior to iKnow in that regard and yes iKnow's speech is definitely slowed down significantly in comparison. There are parts on the Shadowing CD where I know EXACTLY what they are supposed to be saying yet still can barely pick out of the individual sounds, which is good because that's exactly how it sounds when I hear it from other real Japanese sources.
And of course the nature of the sentences, is there some special way they're oriented to shadowing that makes them more suitable than the structure of the iKnow sentences, something to differentiate them and make the price worthwhile (versus iKnow being free). I am asking not for my benefit but for purposes of recommendations to others and for kicking myself in hindsight, perhaps. The speed, for example, is that different? I heard iKnow is slower than usual?
For me, shadowing seems to have a 'non-SRS' kind of feel so I somewhat see it different from what I do with shadowing sentences in Anki, but I prefer to incorporate that sort of thing into my SRSing, except of course when aiming for lengthier speeches and such (and even then I'm working out a plan to integrate more extensive speaking practice into Anki).
And yes I agree it does have a "non-SRS" feel to it and I think that's how it should be used. It's really good listening practice, using realistic speech at full speed, that stays within the boundaries of basic grammar.
2009-02-18, 4:04 pm
Yeah but why not watch television or listen podcast if you want casual speech at normal speed ? you'll get a lot more of that ... and it's not that difficult to find some on the web . Khatzu provides some interesting podcast I think....
Edited: 2009-02-18, 4:06 pm
2009-02-18, 4:10 pm
ghinzdra Wrote:Yeah but why not watch television or listen podcast if you want casual speech at normal speed ? you'll get a lot more of that ...I thought you were just talking about being efficient? Listening to a speech where a large majority of it involves grammar you haven't learned along with having no native transcript isn't exactly what I would call efficient. A Japanese novel has more "natural" sentence patterns than KO2001 so why doesn't everyone just start with that? Reason: Because for a beginner it has a lot of stuff you haven't learned yet, nor need to learn at that moment.
IMO one should listen to both, which is what I do.
BTW no need to upload example tracks. You can listen to a few of them here:
http://www.whiterabbitpress.com/catalog/...16500.html
2009-02-18, 4:22 pm
Interesting... you'd think I'd be able to definitively say for myself whether iKnow is slow, but I guess I'm just focused on speaking for those sentences, I never really thought about it. Taking dictation with Misaki at high speed for a while makes me think everything sounds kind of slow, too. ;p
The reasons I'd prefer 'shadowing' to be outside the SRS, aside from the extemporaneous on-the-fly possibilities, is because that way I could have longer passages to shadow and try to mirror as I listen, rather than waiting for it to play then repeating. I guess this is a major idea of shadowing in the first place, perhaps to 'speed up' one's ability to follow speech, but another concept I'm interested in, very speculatively, is enhancing my ability to listen and subvocalize at the same time (not necessarily subvocalizing what's currently being heard)--studies on phonological loops and articulatory rehearsal show that verbal interference disrupts the process, but it's also a skill you develop over time mostly from internalizing the language so that you're processing multiple layers more easily, so I'm hoping to work out specific ways to enhance this aspect of working memory in controlled ways within Anki, in addition to non-SRS stuff.
As for subs2srs, though I think we've already got the extemporaneous bits covered as I rambled about to Nukemarine in that thread, I think it'll be a little while before there's a structure in place to to establish foundational shadowing collections based on native media, though of course that's a primary interest I have, in addition to the fact that subs2srs-mediated sources are what I'll soon be using to create new speaking materials.
The reasons I'd prefer 'shadowing' to be outside the SRS, aside from the extemporaneous on-the-fly possibilities, is because that way I could have longer passages to shadow and try to mirror as I listen, rather than waiting for it to play then repeating. I guess this is a major idea of shadowing in the first place, perhaps to 'speed up' one's ability to follow speech, but another concept I'm interested in, very speculatively, is enhancing my ability to listen and subvocalize at the same time (not necessarily subvocalizing what's currently being heard)--studies on phonological loops and articulatory rehearsal show that verbal interference disrupts the process, but it's also a skill you develop over time mostly from internalizing the language so that you're processing multiple layers more easily, so I'm hoping to work out specific ways to enhance this aspect of working memory in controlled ways within Anki, in addition to non-SRS stuff.
As for subs2srs, though I think we've already got the extemporaneous bits covered as I rambled about to Nukemarine in that thread, I think it'll be a little while before there's a structure in place to to establish foundational shadowing collections based on native media, though of course that's a primary interest I have, in addition to the fact that subs2srs-mediated sources are what I'll soon be using to create new speaking materials.
Edited: 2009-02-18, 4:32 pm
2009-02-18, 4:39 pm
Yeah, the example on the website sounds great.
To do shadowing, obviously you need the book (a transcript) + the sentences.
Thanks again for the discussion - this seems to be exactly what I'm looking for and will be ordering it soon.
ghinzdra - I'd say that both are important. You need to use audio that you're prep'd for (i.e. with transcripts) for shadowing purposes, but listening to real audio "in the wild" puts you in a situation where you don't know what they will say next (which is good as well). I listen to podcasts daily, but the audio really just blows by me a lot of the time. I get the gist, but couldn't possibly shadow it.
And I'll be taking the advice to leave it off my SRS, which will be nice. I've been looking for ways to study Japanese that aren't in front of my computer. That's the main reason I don't do iKnow. heh.
To do shadowing, obviously you need the book (a transcript) + the sentences.
Thanks again for the discussion - this seems to be exactly what I'm looking for and will be ordering it soon.
ghinzdra - I'd say that both are important. You need to use audio that you're prep'd for (i.e. with transcripts) for shadowing purposes, but listening to real audio "in the wild" puts you in a situation where you don't know what they will say next (which is good as well). I listen to podcasts daily, but the audio really just blows by me a lot of the time. I get the gist, but couldn't possibly shadow it.
And I'll be taking the advice to leave it off my SRS, which will be nice. I've been looking for ways to study Japanese that aren't in front of my computer. That's the main reason I don't do iKnow. heh.
Edited: 2009-02-18, 4:41 pm
2009-02-18, 4:42 pm
is there a thread/link to all those japanese podcasts you guys are talking of?
2009-02-18, 6:08 pm
A lot of people like structure, and that's what I think this book provides (to some extent).
Sure, you could go to TV/podcasts/movies/anime etc, but, with the exception of maybe a few podcasts, is there going to be much in terms of scripts and the like? This is natural Japanese conversation with a full script! It let's you look up vocab/grammar and listen to native Japanese speakers. And if you follow it's advice, begin to speak in the same way as native speakers. I really can't think of anything that could do more for you.
Also, I've had my native speaker friends tell me multiple times that dialogues from movies/anime/tv shows (drama type shows) are not the most natural Japanese at all... so I don't know how good it would be to use those solely to learn how to speak.
Sure, you could go to TV/podcasts/movies/anime etc, but, with the exception of maybe a few podcasts, is there going to be much in terms of scripts and the like? This is natural Japanese conversation with a full script! It let's you look up vocab/grammar and listen to native Japanese speakers. And if you follow it's advice, begin to speak in the same way as native speakers. I really can't think of anything that could do more for you.
Also, I've had my native speaker friends tell me multiple times that dialogues from movies/anime/tv shows (drama type shows) are not the most natural Japanese at all... so I don't know how good it would be to use those solely to learn how to speak.
2009-02-18, 6:28 pm
It's quite a cheap book, I liked it. Even now I can't repeat some of it without reading along, it is that fast. I listen to it in the car and try to follow the convo and repeat. It's fun, as long as it's on shuffle, fun to mimic. Most of the sentences are meant to be short and common phrases. What you are trying to internalise are all those verb endings or particle combinations that come up again and again.
2009-08-24, 1:47 pm
Whoa, why can't the audio in KO2001 be this good?? The audio in this is waaaaaaaaaaaay better. I think I'll try and get this... uh... somewhere...
2009-08-24, 7:27 pm
glad someone necro'ed this... so what's the consensus. from the audioclips it does sound good, and its easy to follow, i dont have to worry that its not JLPT 2 or anything.. so this combined with tae kim, Iknow 2k would give a decent base to build from?
Better than Jpod's ?
I've favoured that link, and id consider purchasing it if i thought it would provide a solid learning material and not something you'd throw aside after 5 mins.
Better than Jpod's ?
I've favoured that link, and id consider purchasing it if i thought it would provide a solid learning material and not something you'd throw aside after 5 mins.
Edited: 2009-08-24, 7:27 pm
2009-08-25, 1:15 am
What the book does:
-It provides lots of example dialogues
-It provides translations and explanations of some phrases
-Good quality audio
-It separates the dialogues into difficulty level, giving you an indication of how common the content is
Everything you hear is stuff that you hear in normal conversations. You can of course get this from Japanese TV or radio, but stuff on the TV hasn't been broken down into bite size chunks and you don't get translations and explanations of tricky phrases.
-It provides lots of example dialogues
-It provides translations and explanations of some phrases
-Good quality audio
-It separates the dialogues into difficulty level, giving you an indication of how common the content is
Everything you hear is stuff that you hear in normal conversations. You can of course get this from Japanese TV or radio, but stuff on the TV hasn't been broken down into bite size chunks and you don't get translations and explanations of tricky phrases.
Edited: 2009-08-25, 1:16 am
2009-08-25, 1:17 am
Here are a couple of gags from the book that I can remember:
内容がないよ～！
このカッターは切れなかった～！
Geddit?
内容がないよ～！
このカッターは切れなかった～！
Geddit?
2009-08-25, 1:48 am
Common: 内蔵がないぞ〜！ ((you/I) have no brain!)
One I made up: 二泊足袋を履くたびに吐く (Every time I wear tabi for two nights I throw up) More of a tongue twister than a bad pun though...
One I overheard from an old man while waiting at a deli: What do you call a camel with no hump? -
-> Humphrey
Wait, isn't this offtopic?
One I made up: 二泊足袋を履くたびに吐く (Every time I wear tabi for two nights I throw up) More of a tongue twister than a bad pun though...
One I overheard from an old man while waiting at a deli: What do you call a camel with no hump? -
-> Humphrey
Wait, isn't this offtopic?
Edited: 2009-08-25, 1:50 am
2009-08-25, 2:08 am
Someone gave me this book as a gift about 2 years ago but I haven't really used it. From what I'm reading, it sounds like I should give it a try.
2009-08-25, 2:08 am
wrightak Wrote:What the book does:yeah but it s dead boring.
-It provides lots of example dialogues
-It provides translations and explanations of some phrases
-Good quality audio
-It separates the dialogues into difficulty level, giving you an indication of how common the content is
Everything you hear is stuff that you hear in normal conversations. You can of course get this from Japanese TV or radio, but stuff on the TV hasn't been broken down into bite size chunks and you don't get translations and explanations of tricky phrases.
I mean RTK, KO2001 ,UNICOM/kanzen/Tae even Iknow all this stuff is formal . BUT it s effective .
No matter what khatz or others may say I definetely endorse those as first step in japanese .
What is really annonying me with shadowing is I did it for a couple of months and I didn t see a signicative improvement in my ability . While you can have an overall understanding of japanese with 1000 kanjis You must know way more than 1000 sentences to get a grasp on hearing and speaking. Shadowing approach is basically flawed.
As for me once you completed RTK , KO2001 and a couple of grammar book you re done with formal stuff . You must dive into real japanese (which means interesting and done for the japanese) . There is enough drama , anime , movie for you to make a shitload of little sentences. And trust me this is way more fun .
Edited: 2009-08-25, 2:09 am
2009-08-25, 2:33 am
Shadowing - the idea of repeating something vocally as soon as you hear it - doesn't work for everybody. Including me. I prefer to listen very carefully to something short and then repeat it in order to improve pronunciation. For comprehension and general listening ability, I prefer to sit back, listen to the dialogue and analyze the bits I don't understand.
Despite the title, you don't have to shadow with the material in the book. You can use it in any way that works for you. For me, I enjoyed learning all of the conversational phrases.
As a disclaimer, I should point out that although I do not financially benefit from sales of the book, people I know and like do.
Despite the title, you don't have to shadow with the material in the book. You can use it in any way that works for you. For me, I enjoyed learning all of the conversational phrases.
As a disclaimer, I should point out that although I do not financially benefit from sales of the book, people I know and like do.
2009-08-25, 2:39 am
Jarvik7 Wrote:-> HumphreyLol. For more off topic hilarity: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotl...216991.stm
Wait, isn't this offtopic?
2009-08-25, 2:49 am
wrightak Wrote:Lol. For more off topic hilarity: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotl...216991.stmHaving read this yesterday, last night I was trying them out on a Japanese person. No. 2 is easy if you know the phrase ニワトリが先か卵が先か.