I have had this theory rattling around my head for a while that I use when I study. Basically when you study something, outside of the actual method used, is the tone of the study. You mental state and how you are approaching studying. EG.

- This is so much fun! YAY!
- Oh I'm so tired, I can't wait to finish my stupid reviews.
- I'm only doing an hour a day for now, only 22 minutes left!
- I WILL master Japanese! LETS ROCK!
- I wonder if my interview will go well tomorrow, oh right gotta keep studying.
- God that guy sitting next to me is loud, ugh!
- I failed another one, I suck!

I think there are an infinite number of tones which depend on your mind set, setting, overall personality and current attitude towards studying. I believe that this tone has a huge impact on the benefit of the study, not just in the current session but reaching into other sessions.

This is because, the human body is actually really smart. We are changing constantly and we constantly tell our bodies how to change. How do we do this? There are 4 main ways.

1. We are over-adequate for something.
2. We are inadequate for something.
3. There is an excess of something.
4. There is a lack of something.

For example, if every day I run to exhaustion the result is that my body concludes that my current level of fitness and muscle is inadequate, so it makes more. I am not saying there is a subconscious process that does this, but that basically it more or less works as if there is.

Or alternatively, if I just sit on my ass all day, I am telling my body it is over-adequate for something. I don't need this muscle to be maintained.

Another example is eating. If I stuff my face every meal, I am telling my body that I have a huge excess of food (the body wants to store this excess of food for fat for leaner times) so my body concludes that my appetite is inadequate and increases it. It will keep increasing it until the food supply is no longer sufficient. This all works in reverse of course.

So basically, our body adjusts depending on what we do with it. Simply put, use it or lose it. This is why I believe that the tone of our study has a huge impact on the efficiency of that study. If you study with the attitude of "god I can't wait until this is over", you are telling your brain that the study is not important. It is an unimportant chore not worthy of your full attention, which stands in the way of the more important stuff. In short you are not pushing your limits so you are not telling your brain to grow or to even remember this stuff.

It's like running 5 minutes a day. The body is currently capable of this, so it doesn't need to change. It will change if you push it is someway. Running to exhaustion or running as fast as you can. Similarly you have to push yourself when you study. You need to REALLY try to remember and memorize stuff. Don't give up, unless you really can't remember something. Then you are telling your brain that it has to develop and that this stuff is really important. And just like running to exhaustion, trying really hard and failing is excellent for you. You brain will change to cope with this inadequacy.

You can see this principle really well, if you imagine being washed up on some desert island and having to learn the natives language. Aside from being surrounded all the time with it, you MUST learn the language. You can't afford to be complacent. Further more you are going to be failing constantly. You try to understand, but fail. You try to speak but fail. fail fail fail! This is when your brain goes freaking nuts and develops.

So when you study, when you watch Japanese TV or anything to do with Japanese. You need to be trying really hard, then your brain will grow to cope and will remember what you take in. I found this out first hand going through RTK1. I did it half-heartedly and found I was forgetting everything. Then I started really straining when I studied and then I was remembering fine. So yeah, bring on the mental sweat.

Admittedly, sometimes I study when I am tired and I don't strain so much to learn, but I believe doing so is optimal and should be done whenever possible. I would also note, that you need to positive about it all. Don't be so negative when you fail stuff. I think this works against your goal of becoming proficient in Japanese. I think you can see the good tone I am talking about when you read Khatzumoto's stuff and get a feel for his attitude.

以上です。

I agree motivation is important, and if you need to learn something, you will. But you can learn in a relaxed fashion also. You might need more exposure, but it's possible.

So you're saying... make learning habitual?

I know what you mean. When I am in school, I see so many people frantically taking notes in class, trying to copy down exactly what they hear, but they forgot to actually THINK about what the teacher is saying. On the other hand, I come into class, never take a single note, sleep half the time, but the time I am awake and listening, I am really focusing on what the professor is saying and really thinking about what he/she is saying. In the end, I do just as well, and very often better than the other people on tests and have a better grasp of the material. I don't think I am smarter than them, they just aren't engaging their brains like I am. I think engaging your brain is a learned skill.

[ファブリス]

Not unlike gaining pounds at the gym ;-)

alyks Wrote:So you're saying... make learning habitual?

It seems he's saying constantly push yourself to keep your brain in learning mode. Don't learn inside your comfort zone, keep the difficulty high enough that you can't relax into it.

What I got from this (pure gold, btw) post is that your body/brain/subconscious will evaluate your current level of Japanese as "inadequate", "perfect", or "overadequate" based on how well it meets your needs.

And then your body/brain/subconscious will adjust its "energy budget" accordingly.

For example if you know no Japanese, and go a Japanese rural 田舎 where noone speaks a word of English, your body will quickly realize, "Oh snap! Current Japanese levels are way inadequate!" And then lots of energy will be sent to learning Japanese. Same effect could be stimulated by watching lots of raw anime.

Or for example if you stop using Japanese for five years, your brain will be like, "Hey, here's some excess stuff I don't need anymore... *forget!*"

Excellent post, thermal, I love it!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts thermal, I think you hit the nail on the head.

snispilbor Wrote:What I got from this (pure gold, btw) post is that your body/brain/subconscious will evaluate your current level of Japanese as "inadequate", "perfect", or "overadequate" based on how well it meets your needs.

And then your body/brain/subconscious will adjust its "energy budget" accordingly.

For example if you know no Japanese, and go a Japanese rural 田舎 where noone speaks a word of English, your body will quickly realize, "Oh snap! Current Japanese levels are way inadequate!" And then lots of energy will be sent to learning Japanese. Same effect could be stimulated by watching lots of raw anime.

Or for example if you stop using Japanese for five years, your brain will be like, "Hey, here's some excess stuff I don't need anymore... *forget!*"

Excellent post, thermal, I love it!

My personal experience however is different. When I feel I really know japanese, like when I got the positive result from my JLPT2 test, or when I can watch a whole episode of a JDrama and understand everything, I get very happy and get tons of motivation to study since I realize it has paid off, big time.

When I feel my skill is inadequate however, I lost my motivation. It feels like a waste of time, that I'll never get better.

I have to say, after reading this thread, I realized that it's pretty true. I used to watch Game Center CX raws for hours each day, and whenever I went into RTK afterward, I would be beaming. Then I slowly stopped watching it, and now (even though I've been doing my repetitions every day) I haven't actually learned any new kanji in almost a week.

I think I'm gonna start watching Game Center CX again.

Thanks guys.

I see this quite clearly with my students learning English. One of the schools I teach at the students pay quite a lot of money, but effectively can take an infinite number of lessons. They the spend a lot of time in English classes and some seem to think this is enough to become good at English. However, every word they say I have to rip out of them and it will be the simplest answer they can manage. Unless they are a natural at learning languages their level never changes. I don't think you can improve at something being so complacent about it.

I think you got the right word, thermal. Complacent. You can't force english trought their throats.

I do agree with some points but I disagree overall. I'm able to retain the most when I can have a clear head and focus on every new thing I'm learning. I retain the least when I am straining or struggling. It's nice we have stuff like anki now to check our personal performance over long periods of time.

cracky Wrote:I do agree with some points but I disagree overall. I'm able to retain the most when I can have a clear head and focus on every new thing I'm learning. I retain the least when I am straining or struggling. It's nice we have stuff like anki now to check our personal performance over long periods of time.

Sorry, I think my overall meaning wasn't so clear.

If you are focusing on every new thing you are learning then this is the really good study that I am talking about. I consider this straining as you are putting in the maximum effort you can into your study.

As an example I study from audio to kanji sentences and vice versa. Sometimes I notice that I am just listening for the words in the audio that are new and testing I understand the meaning and kanji whilst ignoring the meaning of the sentence. I am trying to do the minimum amount of effort possible to get through the cards. This results in the minimum amount of learning overall and I am not pushing myself. If I notice it I then either take a break or knuckle down so as to make sure I am really trying hard. This is when I think the brain really remembers and adapts to it's inadequacy. You could equally call this focusing I think.

It's like trying to improve as a pitcher throwing a ball. If you only half heatedly throw the ball each time, even if you fail, you won't improve so much. But if you always throw trying to be as accurate as possible, really straining to do it well, this is when the fast progress can occur. As despite your best effort, you are communicating to your body that you are inadequate.

So I think people need to pay attention to the tone of their study and adjust it when necessary (reading AJATT does it for me).

Also failing is a great motivator. I changed jobs about 4 months ago and as part of my new job I have to evaluate potential students and sometimes communicate my evaulation in Japanese to staff trying to enlist the students. This has been stressful and sometimes difficult for me. This is not idle chatting with friends, this is a busy work place and I need to be accurate and clear. I have had to try really hard with this. It's been great.

Great post. I haven't been pushing myself lately, or focusing(ex. if I take notes, I don't really get around to studying them after). And I have noticed a difference in my ability to learn and study compared to when I used to study Japanese like crazy. Now I'm inspired to try harder :D

Although I'm wary of doing a one for one comparison of mental to physical training, there's merit in what's being discussed in this thread. Motivation is very quirky and changes from person to person. Likewise, putting the body (or mind) in discomfort (exercise, studying) causes the body to react.

However, if we want to compare physical and mental, take the CrossFit.com theory of exercising. Their idea is General Physical Fitness. No day is ever the same as the last, everyday you measure how well you did. Example: Monday you do in 100 pull-ups, 200 push-ups and 300 air squats as fast as you can (try for under 20 minutes). Tuesday you find the max weight you can squat 5x in a row, and you get five chances to get your max. Wednesday you run 5 km as fast as you can. Wednesday rest. Thursday Do three rounds of 400m sprint, 50 sit-ups, 50 back extensions for time. Thursday do 21 pull-ups, 21 95# thrusters, 15 pull-ups, 15 95# thrusters, 9 pull-ups, 9 95# thrusters for time (aim for under 10 minutes), etc, etc.

The above workouts take very little time per day (usually under 20 minutes), yet create a physique like the actors in the movie "300" (in fact, the trainer Mark Twight used CrossFit ideas to train the actors). In addition, you can do a number of physical events at above average levels (you're not outstanding in any one thing, but are great at many things). Diet was very important (Zone diet, which is 40, 30, 30 of Carbs, Protein and Fat calories). Plus you scale the exercise to your current level (either reducing the weight or the reps).

How to equate to Japanese? Vary your "study" methods. Only watching Anime? Then add in Dramas, Music Videos, the News. Only reading Manga? Read a novel, the newspaper, the carton of milk. Only talking to school friends? Get on skype and talk to anyone.

With the above, you may not be speak as well as those that train just talking. However, you'll find you can read, write, listen and speak on average better than any student who excels at one area of training.

Keep it short: Long stretches of studying is like long distance running. Completely useless for training. Short bursts of intense training creates a body that'll adapt quickly to long haul events. However, with the mind, I think it's 30 minutes on, 10 minutes off for a couple of hours.

Diet, rest and exercise are important to learning Japanese. A healthy mind needs food, water, and blood flow. Stop downing the Mountain Dew and Cheetos.

Take a day off every so often from intense studying. You mind needs to recover like anything else.

Track your results. Write down your sentences, your kanji, track how many sentences or words you can remember over a month's time (the mature cards in Anki). It's not how many sentences you have, it's how many you've internalized that'll matter.

Keep adding pressure. Imagine if you only did variants of Watashi wa gakusei desu. You're not going to be fluent. Throw on just a little more every day so your mind cannot adjust. Not so much that your mind cannot push back though. Keep that +1 concept in play.

Sorry, got long winded there. Good thread topic.

Positive impact on my results?
- This is so much fun! YAY! (yes)
- Oh I'm so tired, I can't wait to finish my stupid reviews.(no)
- I'm only doing an hour a day for now, only 22 minutes left!(no)
- I WILL master Japanese! LETS ROCK!(yes)
- I wonder if my interview will go well tomorrow, oh right gotta keep studying.(no)
- God that guy sitting next to me is loud, ugh!(no)
- I failed another one, I suck!(no)

thermal Wrote:So when you study, when you watch Japanese TV or anything to do with Japanese. You need to be trying really hard, then your brain will grow to cope and will remember what you take in.

I think I agree with this for the most part. Like when I really wanted to finish Heisig. But if it gets too tough, it can reverse itself. Too much stress to meet a deadline, for example, can make me much less efficient. Also, too much failure can make me inefficient. After all, if failure is always a good thing, then why not always use native material? All that failure will surely get us fluent in no time

thermal Wrote:Don't be so negative when you fail stuff.

Excellent advice. I'll try to follow it.

thermal Wrote:I think you can see the good tone I am talking about when you read Khatzumoto's stuff and get a feel for his attitude.

Everybody's different, of course, but when I read his stuff I hear "do it my way or you suck, and give me money", so it doesn't set a good tone for me. But there are many other things I can do to maintain a good attitude when I learn, so I know what you mean.

@Nukemarine

Very very true. I think looking after ourselves physically and also emotionally are crucial to study. In particular I think it is important to not evaluate yourself on your ability to speak Japanese. To be honest I used to feel bad about myself when I failed in some situation and conversely feel good about myself when I succeeded.

Now I am more chill about it. Of course I feel happy when I have a good experience with Japanese, but it's not so important to my self esteem anymore.

@leosmith

Very true there is such a thing as too much challenge. I think you want to be careful when adding sentences that they are a good level for you. However, its great to get your ass kicked every now and again. Watch a movie with no subtitles, go out with Japanese friends without your dictionary. Somehow I think being thrown in the deep end keeps you from getting a big head about your level and inspires you to improve further.

Really? I hadn't gotten that from Khatzu. Check out the FAQ under "Joseph Bloggs at http://www.howtoreallylearnjapanesemothertrucker.com says your method sucks and Stephen Krashen has cooties".

thermal Wrote:@Nukemarine

Really? I hadn't gotten that from Khatzu.

I certainly did get that feeling from him, at least lately. Every link on his site is turning into a referral link or affiliate program.

I've pretty much stopped reading his blog. I like the motivation but it's turning into a capitalist venture instead of a learning one. It feels like I'm a reader being used for cash.

Instead, for motivation now all I need to do is look back at how many kanji I semi-know compared to even last month. What I've done lately is go through a practice JLPT or two and it's both a morale-booster and downer because it shows I know a lot but also that I don't know enough.

*ahem* Back on topic..

Great post thermal! I know for a fact that I'm one of those people who feverishly take notes and never actually listen. I took a whole binder full of lecture notes last year for a class and I never studied them again after I wrote them. I don't think it's strained learning when you're straining to stay awake

This reminds me a lot of my Spanish class. I used to go into class being complacent - expecting it to teach me instead of me to teach myself. But this year, I went into it with a different attitude. I sit in class and listen but I try to take it further than that. I don't want that class to just be a credit tickmark; I want it to be a language fluency tickmark. Studying Japanese has changed my stance on studying in general.

The problem with learning is that if you don't build a fire you'll never be warm but if you build one too big you'll burn your house down. It's all about balance.

thermal Wrote:However, its great to get your ass kicked every now and again. Watch a movie with no subtitles, go out with Japanese friends without your dictionary. Somehow I think being thrown in the deep end keeps you from getting a big head about your level and inspires you to improve further.

Sure. And I might add stop spending such a high percentage of your study time with flashcards. Get a skype language partner, read a reader, listen to a podcast, write a love letter to your Japanese girlfriend, etc.

thermal Wrote:Really? I hadn't gotten that from Khatzu. Check out the FAQ under "Joseph Bloggs at http://www.howtoreallylearnjapanesemothertrucker.com says your method sucks and Stephen Krashen has cooties".

The title was funny. I tried to find the source of the criticism, but failed. Is there such a blog, or was he just making one up as an example? Anyway, he made it sound like someone attacked his method from a linguistics standpoint, and he goes on to say that it's essentially a waste of time to compare methods when we could be studying. Then he says methods don't matter, etc, etc.

But as a whole, the blog is chocked full of "my method is best, your method sucks" comments. And he's pretty aggressive about asking for donations. That's why I get that feeling. Little disclaimers here and there, like the example you gave, don't change the tone of the blog for me.

Wel, 10 years from now these question will all be answered.

thermal Wrote:If you are focusing on every new thing you are learning then this is the really good study that I am talking about. I consider this straining as you are putting in the maximum effort you can into your study.

As an example I study from audio to kanji sentences and vice versa. Sometimes I notice that I am just listening for the words in the audio that are new and testing I understand the meaning and kanji whilst ignoring the meaning of the sentence. I am trying to do the minimum amount of effort possible to get through the cards. This results in the minimum amount of learning overall and I am not pushing myself. If I notice it I then either take a break or knuckle down so as to make sure I am really trying hard. This is when I think the brain really remembers and adapts to it's inadequacy. You could equally call this focusing I think.

Oh, thanks for explaining it more. I agree then, this is a pretty similar to what I do.

The only thing I really am against is studying when you are already mentally exhausted. There are some times when you just aren't getting good results no matter how hard you try.

I personally don't look at focusing as working out but more of just creating the connections and such you need to recall these things. True it is stressful, but I think it's more of a direct cause and effect than the stress telling your brain it needs to work harder.

leosmith Wrote:But as a whole, the blog is chocked full of "my method is best, your method sucks" comments. And he's pretty aggressive about asking for donations. That's why I get that feeling. Little disclaimers here and there, like the example you gave, don't change the tone of the blog for me.

What motivation has he got to keep updating his blog if he doesn't get anything out of it? I think it's fine having a donate button at the bottom of every post, also I don't think he's ever actually asked for donations in a post. And who cares if he uses affiliate links? Does it inconvenience you or cost you anything at all to use his link? If you really want you can just search for the book or DVD yourself.