Virtua_Leaf Wrote:Thanks once again Tobberoth.

In that case I might use that grammar sparingly (been saying it a lot lately... may have come across as big-headed).

Tobberoth Wrote:As for learning slang, i really don't think there is a definite good way of learning slang in particular. Watch japanese movies/series, read books and manga, talk to japanese people... Simply put yourself in a situation where you hear a lot of slang. Personally I wouldn't recommend Making Out In Japanese, it mostly teaches you "funny" set-phrases which are often not even useful.

I am currently reading manga which has a lot of slang in it, but I'm more just reading it and wondering the hell what it means rather than picking it up. I've realised basic things like saying じゃねぇ～ instead of　じゃない etc., but most of it just goes over my head.

I guess just sentence mining some slang would do the trick, right? I might ask here again when I come across structures I truly can't make heads or tales of.

Do you know any good sources ready to be copy and pasted? Online manga scripts etc.?

I actually have no idea, I learned almost all my slang knowledge from context while living in Japan... I feel that most slang is simple enough and usually consists of set-phrases so you don't really have to study them or know them, you simply have to hear a sentence you understand, but with slang used, often enough. There are of course exceptions to this, and in those cases, I personally have no better method than asking my japanese friends. If you find a really good way of learning slang, I would in fact love to hear it ^^

I noticed I didn't finish a sentence for ってわけ. It's also used to show another way of saying something. (Xだ。つまり、Yというわけだ。Paraphrasing an example from the book I mentioned before: 彼女の母さんは俺の親父の妹だ。つまり、（俺と彼女は）いとこ同士ってわけだ。Her mum is my dad's sister. In other words, we're cousins.) That doesn't look like the case here, but it's always nice to know.

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:Does this mean the に is being used like an 'and' particle?

Sorry, I meant to put that. Yeah, it can be used to mean 'and'.

Quote:Is this one of those cases (like a newspaper headline) where the particles are done away with and only the essential information is left?

I think it probably is, to make a snappy little phrase (like 安全第一, safety first). You apparently see that 注意一秒怪我一生 a lot around factories.

Quote:Ahh, I see it now. But what does にも mean?

It's に, showing a location (near/around Bart) and も, 'also'. Maybe he thinks there's other uncouth people around the world, and now they're here too?

Quote:I'm always seeing stuff like このメイソン and そんな俺 etc.. What purpose are these 'this/that' words serving?

I don't know how to explain こんな俺 or　このメイソン (at least beyond what Tobberoth has already said). Where as この俺 could sound like you think a lot of yourself, こんな俺 seems like the opposite to me. Like you think lowly of yourself? Google gives a lot of hits with こんな俺でも, 'even me [who is like this]... [can do that, so it's easy and anyone can do it]'.

I think once you learn some basic rules (like how sounds change, such as with the ～んな or how こわい becomes　こえー), then slang gets easier the more you're exposed to it.

I've only looked at the first couple of chapters of MOIJ, which didn't seem that bad. Pretty basic, but not that bad.

Personally, when I see に used to mean "and", I like to think of it more as "on top of", which makes a bit more sense compared to what に "usually" means. The most common "expression" where this kind of に is used is それに, which is used to start sentences which continue a previous sentence. For example:

もう食べたよ。それに、凄くたくさんだったので、もう本当にいっぱいだ。

Which I would translate to as something along the lines of "I already ate... On top of that, (and,) it was very much, so I'm already truly stuffed."

It's similar to それで、but not 100% same.

Tobberoth Wrote:それに, which is used to start sentences which continue a previous sentence.
<snip>
It's similar to それで、but not 100% same.

Yeah, it's 66.6% the same but the last syllable is different :-)

Seriously, I don't think they're very similar. それで expresses a kind of "because of that", "so" relation, whereas それに is (as you say) "on top of that", "in addition". They're not generally interchangeable.

I was thinking, after I posted, how に sounds more like you're listing things off than just simply saying 'and'.

Looking through the book I keep mentioning and am not in any way affliated with (日本語文型辞典), I found an example sentence with both に and それに:

カレーにハンバーガー、それにライスもお願いします

それで only mentions it being used to state a reason for something.

A:昨日、突然田舎から親戚が出てきまして・・・。
B:それで。
A:それで、あのう、今日の残業は・・・。
B:かまわないよ、はやく帰りなさい。

In that sense, used to prompt the conversation, I guess it's kind of like the English "and?" Or in general maybe, but more of an "and so..."?

On the subject of slang, それで gets shortened to just で in causal conversations.

albion Wrote:I think once you learn some basic rules (like how sounds change, such as with the ～んな or how こわい becomes　こえー), then slang gets easier the more you're exposed to it.

I've only looked at the first couple of chapters of MOIJ, which didn't seem that bad. Pretty basic, but not that bad.

That's nice to know. ～んな gets me quite a lot. But in particular the quote particle does (I have enough trouble with it in it's regular form).

Also, while MOIJ is pretty basic (for example, 「何？」 had a whole sentence dedicated to itself) it has taught me a couple of handy things that nowhere else seems to have.　当たり前でしょう is one example. Simple but quite helpful.

So the vibes I'm getting, slang is just a slurred version of normal talk. So I'll just notice patterns in slang, and basically just keep studying normal sentences. Then hopefully it'll just all merge as time goes on.

Also, semi-related, you know the whole sentence method thing? Is it literally just, if you see a sentence containing words you don't know, you can add it? Because just looking at this Xenogears script, I could almost literally add sentence after sentence.

Is it okay if I just take things from the same source?

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:Also, semi-related, you know the whole sentence method thing? Is it literally just, if you see a sentence containing words you don't know, you can add it? Because just looking at this Xenogears script, I could almost literally add sentence after sentence.

Is it okay if I just take things from the same source?

That is the sentence method indeed. Point being, if you add every single sentence which has new material in it, you will have 10 000 of sentences in no time and no time to do them. What you have to do is be selective. Find sentences which you can see yourself using. Look for words you don't know which you feel you need to know. While it's certainly cool to understand Xenogears 100%, is it worth the time it will take, when you can spend it learning sentences which will help normal life in Japan?

It's all up to you and what you find interesting

You could try limiting how many you add, if you think it's too much. Like adding 10 from a scene or something. And you can always come back later and add the others if you want. It's a gradual process, so if you added say 100 from Game X, you'll understand a bit more than you would have before of Manga Y, from which you add another 100. Then the same for Book Z, then Drama W, so on and so forth. Having a limit might help you move on to different sources and get a bigger variety of sentences.

Unless you can keep going with Xenogears without feeling tired of it, then keep on with it. It's not like you can only do one thing at a time. Do Xenogears one day, something else another (for two days of XG and one day of something else, etc.). What matters most is you being able to carry on with it and keep it up.

I think as long as you're doing some more practical stuff as well, it shouldn't be a problem.

Thank you. I figured instead of wasting time worrying what's good to learn and what isn't, as long as it's Japanese it must have some value, whatever it is. Even if a sentence is something of a time waste in regards to what I NEED to know, it'll waste less time using it than worrying whether to use it or not.

So I'm pretty much sticking with Xenogears now and a bit of Neon Genesis Evangelion. Okay, so I won't need "The phaze is neutralising!" in day to day life but the contents of these sources do tend to bounce of each other (what with the Gears and all) and I've learnt a surprising amount of useful speech.

This said I really could use some more 'normal' knowledge. I can understand a lot of stuff in RPGs now, but I'm dreadful at understanding forum posts etc..

Anyway, another sentence I'm slightly confused about, this time it's just a particle thing:

面倒くさいのと（待て）、ゲームウォッチでまとめられているので、

It's the のと I don't get.

I guess it's a context problem, but I translate that to

"The one which is tiresome and, is ordered in the gamewatch."

Probably refering to an earlier or later sentence. adjectiveのと means "and the one which adjective". I have zero idea that the （待て) is supposed to mean.

Tobberoth Wrote:I guess it's a context problem, but I translate that to

"The one which is tiresome and, is ordered in the gamewatch."

Probably refering to an earlier or later sentence. adjectiveのと means "and the one which adjective". I have zero idea that the （待て) is supposed to mean.

I got it from a forum, from a thread about the Tokyo Gameshow. Here's the entire sentence:

本来なら、各社のゲームショウ特設サイトのリンクをまとめようと思ったのですが、
面倒くさいのと（待て）、ゲームウォッチでまとめられているので、そちらのリンクも張っておきます。

I think it's something like:

"Originally, I thought I'd gather all the links for each company's special websites but,
annoying (wait for it), they're gathering the links at Gamewatch (I think this is a website) so lets pull (take?) their links."

I get the impression the （待て） is sarcasm, and that perhaps Gamewatch is renowned site for stuff like this.

I didn't know のと was an adjective, but this sentence still isn't making much sense to me.

Edit - Here's a new sentence if anyone can help:

ラムサスは目標に向かってまい進している。

Does anyone know what the まい means?

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:I got it from a forum, from a thread about the Tokyo Gameshow. Here's the entire sentence:

本来なら、各社のゲームショウ特設サイトのリンクをまとめようと思ったのですが、
面倒くさいのと（待て）、ゲームウォッチでまとめられているので、そちらのリンクも張っておきます。

I think it's something like:

"Originally, I thought I'd gather all the links for each company's special websites but,
annoying (wait for it), they're gathering the links at Gamewatch (I think this is a website) so lets pull (take?) their links."

I get the impression the （待て） is sarcasm, and that perhaps Gamewatch is renowned site for stuff like this.

I didn't know のと was an adjective, but this sentence still isn't making much sense to me.

Edit - Here's a new sentence if anyone can help:

ラムサスは目標に向かってまい進している。

Does anyone know what the まい means?

Ah yes, in context it makes perfect sense.
Your translation is mostly correct, but after "special websites but," it should be:
"special websites but, it's annoying and the links are allready ordered at Gamewatch so lets take their list" more or less.

のと isn't an adjective, it's put after an adjective (in this case). mendokusai no (koto/mono) to. In this case, it's basically the same as 面倒くさいので but there's one more reason so と is used.

As for the new sentence, I'm guessing it's 邁進 but he didn't know the first kanji/didn't want to write it.

EDIT: In fact, Microsoft IME even suggests writing it まい進, so it's probably a common way of writing it.

Quote:"Originally, I thought I'd gather all the links for each company's special websites but, annoying (wait for it), they're gathering the links at Gamewatch (I think this is a website) so lets pull (take?) their links."

Just as a small note, here, 張って would be "post" instead of take or pull.

At first I thought ゲームウォッチ meant that hand-held thing from years ago (Game&Watch). But then I remembered the site.

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/

The way I read it, I'll show with a little amendment to the original:

「面倒くさいの」と思って（待て）、ゲームウォッチでまとめられているので、そちらのリンクも張っておきます

In English, something like:
"[I thought], 'that's a pain [can't be bothered]' (hold it [that's lazy of me, etc.], and since they're all collected [compiled] on GameWatch, I'll put a link there as well."

I read it as the と here signalling their thoughts/feelings on the matter, and the verb to go with it was just omitted.

But a more knowledgeable opinion than mine certainly wouldn't go amiss.

まい進 is 邁進 (まいしん：　恐れることなく突き進むこと。元気よく、ひたすら目的に向かって進むこと). They just wrote the first half in kana. Another common (in my experience) of this 仮名交じり?-- is that what it's called?-- is せん滅　（殲滅）.

I'm only guessing, but perhaps because:

1) when writing, it's easier to leave those out
2) easier to read
3) if it's a computer/game, then the font being used doesn't include that kanji

I don't recall coming across it - perhaps I've forgotten or it depends on type of media/genre.

btw - thanks for the reference to book on Japanese expressions. Could you say whether it covers less common expressions/structures or is similar in content to other grammar dictionaries (the Dictionary of Intermed/ Advanced Japanese Grammar, for e.g.)?

It happens pretty often with the less common kanji (though the cause and effect relationship of that I'll leave up to you to decide!). It's just like 凄く being written すごく a lot of the time, or 貰う もらう, and etc. Except that it looks weirder in these compound words, heh.

Thora Wrote:btw - thanks for the reference to book on Japanese expressions. Could you say whether it covers less common expressions/structures or is similar in content to other grammar dictionaries (the Dictionary of Intermed/ Advanced Japanese Grammar, for e.g.)?

The one I mentioned?

I've not got the Dictionary of Intermediate/Advanced Japanese Grammar, but from the index and examples I could find online (Intermediate and Basic), the 日本語文型辞典 is more succinct in its explanations. You get 4 to 6 examples, and a short commentary on it (usually short; a few are rather long). Pure Japanese, not a word of English in the entire book.

The index looks about the same, but in sheer number of entries 日本語文型辞典 (3000) overshadows the whole Dictionary of Japanese Grammar line (Intermediate: 200, Advanced: 230, I can't find a number for Basic but even assuming around 1200 [two entries a page, which I could see isn't the case] it's still short). And it seems to be a lot cheaper than even one volume of DJG, at least from English-language sites.

That said, I don't think having more than one reference would hurt. It's good to get a second opinion on things, maybe learn a different aspect not mentioned in the other book.

I'm sold. And I appreciate the bit of research you did, Albion, to be able to make the comparison.

Wow this has been incredibly helpful. And I've seen のと in numerous other places since asking.

Thanks everyone, always appreciated.

Edit - hold on a minute, it's not the same thing I've been seeing. Nearly though, this time it's との. Here are the two (unrelated) sentences:

旧アヴェ司令官が転属してきているとのことです。

これが国境付近に配備されたとのことでしたよね？

Any ideas what this means?

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:旧アヴェ司令官が転属してきているとのことです。

これが国境付近に配備されたとのことでしたよね？
Any ideas what this means?

との is basically the same as という here.

"とのこと" is a set phrase in itself, like だそうだ・ということだ, used to mention what you've heard from someone else.

And into Anki it goes.

Thanks!

Okay how about this. This is from 2ch and the thread can be found here:

http://schiphol.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/gs...222752718/

そしてストーカー地味た真似をしてしまうんですね。

And so, will do a [plain; simple; subdued; sober] stalker mannerism.

Okay it doesn't help matters not knowing what 地味 means, but even if I did, what's the た after it? It's obviously a follow up to the original post (describing some sort of otaku I guess) and I think they mean "and then you go ahead and stalk them" or something. But this 地味 (let alone with a た at the end) doesn't seem to fit.

Edit - no idea what this means either. Same thread, presumably talking about types they don't like:

呼吸するように嘘付く奴
少しでも指摘されると物凄い勢いで逆切れして場の雰囲気を道連れに自爆する

Guys that lie as much as the air they breath (can't stop lying?)
If something gets clearly pointed out to them even a little, with amazing force they'll blame the other person, and self-blow up the place's atmosphere towards their friend.

...help!

I misread that sentence as ストーカー気味な真似をしてしまうんですね, which would make sense (then you go and do some stalker-ish thing). But I don't know what else to say about 地味た.

The trouble with 2ch is that people don't write things properly or use their own vocabulary. Like 逝ってよし, 氏ね, 乙. When I noticed it was た, I thought it might be a made-up verb. I don't know if this is some new word, though I can't really find anything on Google for it. So, unless it's wrong, I don't know what to say.

呼吸するように嘘付く奴
Guys who lie so naturally (or so much) it's like breathing to them?

少しでも指摘されると物凄い勢いで逆切れして - even pointing something out [flaw/mistake?] just a little, they flip out with great force
場の雰囲気を道連れに自爆する - self-destruct, taking the mood of the place with them

逆切れ（逆ギレ） is when the 'assailant' gets angry at the 'victim'. It's meant to be used when the person who should have people angry at them ('assailant') suddenly gets angry at the person who should technically be angry ('victim'). But sometimes people use it for people just getting angry.

It comes from 逆, reverse, and キレる, to get angry.