Okay,
so I finished RTK1 a while ago and then started with KO.
I realized that it's still hard to remember all the readings and (like I thought) I often am not sure if it's (e.g.) リョク,　リオウク,　ショ,　ショウ,　シュ,　シュウ

So maybe it's a good idea to stop doing KO here and insted start something like your method or Kanji Town.
You said it took you 50 days (50kanji/day), but for people like me who have already finished RTK1 (so we don't have to think of any new keywords, we just place them in the fitting location) it should be possible to do it in less time, right?
I'm just wondering how long it will take me to get through this.
While I think it's a necessary step and it'll definitely make things easier later .... I somehow can't wait to get back to study "real" Japanese.

So, I guess my question is:
How long do you think it'll take me? Anybody who finished RTK1 tried this method? How long did it take you?


Also ... I'm not familiar with enough movies, so I need to use something else.
I was thinking about maybe anime series, .... but I'm not sure if I know enough in such great detail.
So maybe I should use anime characters instead. Each on-yomi stand for ONE anime character. And then I just place the keywords like that: like who he/she meets, what he/she does, where he/she goes etc.
You think that'll work out or is it not a good idea? If so, why?


Last thing: I have a list of all the RTK1 kanji sorted by on-yomi (I think it's the kanji town file).
Before I start I wanna use a "good" list, so any recs would be highly aprreciated.


That's all.
Hope that some of you can help me out here. I wanna start asap!

I'm doing it too. I started to do sentences, but some readings for some kanji, were not sticking so easily.

The biggest problem is that you don't want to change your RTK stories. So you gotta do this in another layer.

I think the anime character thing is great. I chose to use familiar locations. For example, Rock Show for the ショウ reading.

So I'm connecting my RTK stories to these locations, slowly, while doing the sentences.
When I get to a kanji for wich I can't remember the reading, I go to my spreadsheat, and put the link to the location there.

The thing is that sounds stick much easier than kanji, so it was not really needed to setup some special review system.

When I see the back of the card, with the readings, it is very easy to remember the locations, and after that, the "link".

It is working well, but I cant give you quantitative results, as I'm doing it as I go throughtout the sentences, 15-100 sentences/day.

Might seem obvious, but good subtitutes for movies (because who really knows 300-odd movies that well) are anime, TV shows, comics, video games, books......You could do locations as well, although I'm not sure how well mixing the two would work. I think I'd choose to link to either media, or locations, but not both.

I quite like the look of the method, but since I'm so close to the end of RTK (1880 and counting), I'm pretty sick of not learning proper Japanese. I just can't wait to get stuck into the sentences. Mentat, your approach seems interesting though. I might nick it, depending on how difficult I find remembering the readings.

I don't think using a single person for each reading will be effective. It could end up being very confusing having the character involved in so many different things. That aside, I myself used characters in nearly every single image I created. People are great for remembering.

Think of the method as a way to link kanji together while maintaining complete independence from each other. It it's bear bones it is this:
A location has many points without order. In any of these points you will create memories associated with them. This will allow you to maintain independence. These locations can be anywhere, as long as they share something in common. The reason location works is because it allows you to avoid confusion that shared elements might be subject to.

That's really the best way I can explain it.

As for speed, I can't comment. It might be possible to do a lot in a single day as long as you're able to link kanji to reading easily

@mentat_kgs: Sounds very interesting. Could you describe your method in more details. I'm still not sure if I get what exactly you're doing, but I'm very interested!
Thanks in advance.

@alyks: And if I try to do it more like you. Let's say I have a keyword for one of my kanji and then I try to think back when the anime character I chose for the reading got into a situation in the anime where this "keyword" appears. Would that be a better approach?
Or should I forget about the "character method" and try anime or manga series instead as it's closer to your method?
Of course I want the kanji to be independent from each other, but I don't see any problems with the characters.
On the other hand I'm still not sure how that whole things works and I think one figures that out once they started actually using the method.

Any advice is highly appreciated.
I think I'll start tomorrow. Can't wait

The only thing I still don't know is if I want to spend my time only for that or if I do 2 or so days a week with sentences from KO. Hm. Any recs?

chochajin Wrote:@alyks: And if I try to do it more like you. Let's say I have a keyword for one of my kanji and then I try to think back when the anime character I chose for the reading got into a situation in the anime where this "keyword" appears. Would that be a better approach?
Or should I forget about the "character method" and try anime or manga series instead as it's closer to your method?
Of course I want the kanji to be independent from each other, but I don't see any problems with the characters.
On the other hand I'm still not sure how that whole things works and I think one figures that out once they started actually using the method.

I would say nothing is set in stone. My only concern about only using characters without location could be confusing. Go ahead and try it then report back.

Other than that, Mentat's method seems quite reasonable.

@chochajin

A month or so after I finished RtK1 I used something similar to remember all the onyomi groups of 4 or more (anything smaller than that is easier learned through vocab/rote/small chains I think). It took me about a week? I think? The thing that took me the longest was coming up with enough locations actually, until I realised they could pretty much be anything. Also I started off trying to write things down which is a complete waste of time. The thing to do is just focus on your original image for that kanji and "relocate" it somewhere.

What I used was I guess a mix of Kanji Town and movie method. Some types of places I used:

シツ - My bedroom
エン - Park near my house
ダイ - My university campus

キ - Buffy/Sunnydale
カ - Weeds (Nancy's house)
ショ - Black Books

ショウ - Trademeet
ジ - Temple District
カン - Government District
(these are all locations from an RPG game which I used A LOT. I think I used about ever major location from that game)

セキ - J. Jonah Jameson's office, Spiderman
ニン - League of Shadows, Batman Begins

トウ - Tokyo (esp. around where I stayed there)
ジン - Shrine I visited in Kyoto

etc etc etc. It can be anywhere you can picture solidly. You could probably do it with characters, but location really is a very strong memory aid. For a couple of the キ and カ ones I just used characters from those shows and it worked okay. The benefit of using location, however, is you don't have to mess with your original image/story, just focus on associating it with the atmosphere of that reading's location.

Also I thought I'd add that I'm really glad I took the time to do it. A lot of people are down on learning the onyomi in isolation but afterwards I found my vocabulary aquisition and reading speed/confidence exploded. It will make you really appreciate the beauty and logic of kanji even more. Not every compound word will come free, but a lot will (引力 and 火山 anyone?).

Wow, thanks so much!
I guess I should go for anime series - there are more than enough locations to use.
And if I can't think of enough series, then I'll just do what you did and mix in other stuff as well ... jdrama series or whatever.

@mentat_kgs: You mentioned something about sentences and "links". Can you elaborate that more in how you use that with your onyomi-studies?

Quote:(引力 and 火山 anyone?)

Actually I just learned them in KO today ... and already forgot their reading again.
Of course the meaning usually sticks quite well (sometimes I even know beforehand) - thanks to RTK1 - but the readings .....
That's exactly why I want to stop and study the onyomi.

Have you finished learning all the onyomi yet?

I've finished learning all the 4+ groups. Of the rest, I noticed I already knew a lot of them because they're common, like 幕 or 論. There are maybe 200 I haven't covered? I'll probably do them systematically at some point.

If you're familiar with an anime series you should totally use it. I used Konoha from Naruto for ケン because of the 険, 験, 剣 ect primitive which I used a ninja for. Also depending on the series you can use it more than once so long as you keep the seperation clear. Eg. キ was mostly the Magic Shop in Buffy, but I also used the Bronze (place the characters hang out a lot) for ハイ because I'm a huge loser and I'm really familiar with that show.

Places I'd been irl worked probably the best of all, actually. I used my street (テイ), beach near my grandpa's house (サ), local swimming pool (スイ), bathroom (ヨク), philosophy classroom in highschool (テツ). Seriously, anything.

Edit: Speaking of jdramas, I just remembered another one I used. The highschool from Hana Yori Dango for ジュン, because of 松本潤, haha.

How long did it take to learn all those on-yomi?

I see. Thanks. Basically if there's a series with lots of locations (like Naruto for example) I can use more than just one location. So instead of series I should associate different locations from different series and just try to keep everything seperate, so that it won't be confusing afterwards.

One last thing I'm still not sure about although I read alyks blog at least 3 times already. Maybe I'm just very slow.
So if a Kanji has more than one on-yomi which happens quite often, how are you going about that?
If I got that write alyks just put the other reading to the same location, so that he didn't have to remember 2, 3, 4 different locations/movies.
Is that a good idea or should I put one kanji in as many locations as there are on-yomis for it? (?_____?)

About a week, like I said... maybe half that time spent on the first 500 trying to figure out what I was doing/what worked. And writing things down. Cannot stress enough how much that is not worth it.

Ugh. The multiple readings is really a contentious issue I think. For some, you really do need to learn a few readings which are all important- 子、正、楽、性 are some that come to mind. For A LOT I honestly think you're better off learning the most common reading, so when you look at a word, you'll have the best odds of guessing right. You'll want to learn the obscure readings eventually but learning them up front is a waste of time in my opinion, they'll bog you down. My test was, if a reading didn't show up in a common word on jisho.org, I didn't learn it. Anyone is free do disagree with me but that's what I did.

Anyway, with that criteria there honestly aren't a massive amount with multiple readings. Less than a hundred at a guess, and iirc only one or two with three readings (note that this also tends to happen with the most common characters). I basically did what the Kanji town guy did. Create the same image in both locations, it'll work out.

I just read about that, too (once again). (talking about kanji town)
I guess that's what I'll do.
I don't bother with not sooo common readings, but only knowing ONE basic reading is not enough either.
But I guess I'll figure that out once I've started (at least I hope so *g*).

Wow, only 1 week? Awesome
I guess I won't be that fast as I have a full-time job and all, but maybe it won't take as long as I thought.
I wanna start with the larger groups first and leave the tiny ones for later.

I guess all that's left is ..... doing it already Can't wait to start. I hope it will be just as much fun as RTK1 was (and that alone boosted my reading skills A LOT!).

Last question: What kind of list did you use for your studies?

I just used the kanjitown one which you seem to already have, from the RtK yahoo group. I don't have it on hand, but the column with the RtK vol. 2 numbers on it- anything after a certain number is quite obscure readings from like, Buddhism and stuff. I figured that out half way and it saved me some time.

With readings, just use your judgement about whether you need to know it and whether knowing it now will help you or confuse you. Also, as Alyks pointed out I think, you're not making chains. That's the best part. You can add stuff in later if you come across a new reading for a kanji.

It will be pretty quick. You've done most of the work already. Plus I found I could print sheets off and do it in lectures... haha...

Yes, I already have that one
I already erased the RTK2 column, because I don't think I'll need the reference numbers (for now).
I'll also have to replace the keywords, because I used the German version of RTK1, thus non-English keywords. So it might take a little longer than for you.

Furthermore I want to write my stories down in that sheet (I don't trust my memory THAT much *g*). Printing the storys out and taking them to work with me might be a good idea, too *coughs*

[Katsuo]

chochajin Wrote:Last thing: I have a list of all the RTK1 kanji sorted by on-yomi (I think it's the kanji town file).
Before I start I wanna use a "good" list, so any recs would be highly aprreciated.

I have a spreadsheet which includes the following:

1) All Joyo-approved readings listed
2) Less common Joyo readings marked
3) KANJIDIC readings
4) RTK1 numbers

If you think this might be useful then let me know and I'll email it.

[Katsuo]

nest0r Wrote:I'm convinced that half the people on this forum are word-processing fetishists, or list fetishists or something, hehe. Katsuo would be the leader of the pack. ^_^

耳が痛い

shakkun Wrote:Anyway, with that criteria there honestly aren't a massive amount with multiple readings. Less than a hundred at a guess, and iirc only one or two with three readings (note that this also tends to happen with the most common characters). I basically did what the Kanji town guy did. Create the same image in both locations, it'll work out.

I tried that at first, but that was too bothersome. What I did was take a character from the movie of one reading and use him to create the image in the location for the other reading.

Well, my way of following this method is too disorganized to copy. I just do it for the readings I have trouble to remember. If the reading kanji follows the fonetic component, I don't even bother to put it in the spreadsheat. An also, I only do it for the on yomi. It is kinda pointless to do it for kun yomi.

nest0r Wrote:I'm convinced that half the people on this forum are word-processing fetishists, or list fetishists or something, hehe. Katsuo would be the leader of the pack. ^_^

Yeah, it seems some people are more interested in devising new study methods or gathering new study materials instead of just getting down to it and studying.

My personal experience is that there really isn't any good reason to learn kanji readings out of context. The reason being that most kanji don't HAVE a reading out of context because they simply aren't used like that (there are of course tons of exceptions like 水 and 家 for example). Question being, what good does it do to know a kanji reading?

The only thing I can think of is being able to pronounce 熟語 which you don't know.
What's the good part of this: Ability to pronounce it and ability to look it up in a dictionary. Here's the bad parts: The pronunciation is a guess. Most kanji have several readings so you're just guessing which ones are used in this particular instance. Ability to look up in a dictionary is a good one, but that still just requires you to know one possible reading of the kanji (for example, instead of knowing tabun (多分) just write 多い and 分かる and then delete the hiragana.)

So my personal idea is that learning words and remembering the readings from that is more effective and useful than learning the readings out of context. Personally, I know tons of readings for 下 and 上 without ever having studied the readings, you simply learn from all the words which use the kanji.

I'm with Tobberoth, I just learn readings through vocabulary as I encounter them. Someone months ago compared memorizing all the readings of the kanji to sitting down and memorizing all the cities in New York.

It basically becomes trivia.

Toberoth and Jarvik7:

The thing is that after 1 memorized reading, it is much easier to memorize vocabulary.

I, too, think that it will be easier to memorize vocabs after you've studied the readings.
I tried to do the sentence method (with KO) right after finishing RTK1, but I guess it was too much for my brain (remember the meaning + the reading of so many new words/compunds).


Question to those of you who use the method discussed here or similar ones:
How do you review? Do you review at all?

I've started now. It's not easy. Actually it's hard to come up with "locations/characters/whatever". Once I found something it's fairly easy to create a story (I'm just not sure how much I can remember after a while).
I hope it gets easier later on?!

Tobberoth Wrote:My personal experience is that there really isn't any good reason to learn kanji readings out of context. The reason being that most kanji don't HAVE a reading out of context because they simply aren't used like that (there are of course tons of exceptions like 水 and 家 for example). Question being, what good does it do to know a kanji reading?

When I'm going through 100-150 sentences a day, it helps not having to memorize the compound readings.

In a sentence that has a new compound word (and probably a new verb and new grammar point) I'll have one less thing to have to memorize. It really adds up fast.

chochajin Wrote:Question to those of you who use the method discussed here or similar ones:
How do you review? Do you review at all?

I've started now. It's not easy. Actually it's hard to come up with "locations/characters/whatever". Once I found something it's fairly easy to create a story (I'm just not sure how much I can remember after a while).
I hope it gets easier later on?!

I really don't know how to answer this question. I don't ever review the readings, because they're reviewed anyway when I remember the kanji. Maybe I could send you my deck and you could suspend them all, then unsuspend a group after you've made sufficient mnemonics for each on group?

Yes, it does get easier. Well- you get a feel for what works and what you can't do.