Wow!!!!!

Just stop!!!!

This is not conducive to a positive learning environment. Seriously.

Where do you hang out that actually manages to produce that quantity of stupid?

I live in a pretty rural area. Hicks to the north of here. Rednecks to the south. Somewhere in between is the town where I live. Not everybody is like that, but there's enough of them to ruin your day sometimes. =P

Also several women feel that as a woman your value in life is equal to whatever man you marry and everything you do is for two things: Get a man. Please your man.

Going to college? You want a smart man.
Going to college yet already married? You want to make money to give to your man.
Got a job? You want to make money to give to your man.
Got a job, but no man? You want to marry the boss.
Learning Japanese? You want to marry a Japanese man.

The second one I've heard from several people. If you can mutter out "Quisiera ir al restaurante" you are a super genius already. If you can say レストランに行きたい then your brain will explode if you learn much more. Since "learning a language" seems to mean "memorize a list of tourist book phrases" I'm obviously more than fluent already. If you are capable of saying, "Hello. My name is... I'm on vacation. Where is the bathroom? I would like a beer," in five different languages, then you KNOW five different languages.

The person that chewed me out about how it's not possible that I can know Japanese, is going to be a public school teacher... Which reminded me of why I am against the public school system... She also said she's fluent in Spanish, but can't speak it. But at least she's fluent! I'm just faking Japanese!

And don't mention you're learning or know any Spanish unless you want someone asking, "How do you say, 'Go back to Mexico!' in Spanish?"



Oh, there's another good one I've heard often for anti-learning any language (except English):
"If you already know English it's pointless to learn any other language. If you go to any foreign country, there will always be someone who can speak English to help you. And even if you speak the local language, people will still try to speak to you in English because they simply cannot believe your language skills are better than theirs or else they want to practice with you. And if you're learning so you can read books or watch movies, then there's no reason at all. Anything of any value WILL be translated. If you can name something that hasn't been translated yet, then either: a) Someone is going to translate it later; or b) It's not worthy of being translated, and it's not worth reading either."

Actually, that was from someone who spoke English as a second language and couldn't understand why people who speak it as a first language would ever want to learn any other language.

Texas?

Wheew, Pretty, you wen't trought some hard times. I never had this much discouragement in my whole life.

Man, people are getting some mad discouragement, I can't really relate... Then again, I didn't start to study Japanese seriously until I lived in Japan and that's a good a reason as you're going to get.

I am a member of a certain online forum though where anything having any relation at all to Japan sucks shit and anyone who has even a slight interest is a complete faggot.

Tobberoth Wrote:I am a member of a certain online forum though where anything having any relation at all to Japan sucks shit and anyone who has even a slight interest is a complete faggot.

Then why are you a member, let alone go there?

Just a little encouragement to Prettykitty. I grew up in the south, where I often heard the old quote by from a southern governor "If the King?s English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it?s good enough for the children of Texas!?. Needless to say, I no longer live there, but I did start studying Japanese there in college (along with Arabic, Latin and Spanish). I now live in France and speak French and Spanish fluently. I hope one day to get to the same level in Japanese and one never knows when you might get to go to Japan. It took me ten years from when I started studying Japanese until my first trip. I can't wait to go back next month to spend three weeks in Tokyo. There are always people trying to discourage you from learning new things, but in the end you'll be the better for it.

Hang in there!

someone asked a friend of mine "why are you learning japanese? that's worthless" ... he turned around and said "you're worthless!" and then he walked off haha

Hashiriya Wrote:someone asked a friend of mine "why are you learning japanese? that's worthless" ... he turned around and said "you're worthless!" and then he walked off haha

Hashiriya, on a rather off topicy topic, the forum says that you're from Georgia. Do you mean the country or the state? I've been wondering...

Geez, Hashiriya, you're just so danged geographically ambiguous.
(I'm going to start a running gag.)

Replicator Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:I am a member of a certain online forum though where anything having any relation at all to Japan sucks shit and anyone who has even a slight interest is a complete faggot.

Then why are you a member, let alone go there?

It's a great site, as long as Japan isn't mentioned what-so-ever.

to those that were wondering... I am from the georgia in the usa.. kingsland, georgia to be exact, which there also happens to be a HUGE naval base here (im not military myself though, I'm a male nurse =P)... my japanese fiance always tells her friends I am from georgia and they say "oh, like the coffee?" haha!! no japanese around here though really... unless you count all of those filipinos that everybody swears are japanese...

Hashiriya Wrote:to those that were wondering... I am from the georgia in the usa.. kingsland, georgia to be exact, which there also happens to be a HUGE naval base here (im not military myself though, I'm a male nurse =P)... my japanese fiance always tells her friends I am from georgia and they say "oh, like the coffee?" haha!! no japanese around here though really... unless you count all of those filipinos that everybody swears are japanese...

ahhahaha I actually used to live in Georgia, a long time ago. Back when I was a very little kid, and wasn't fully aware what the heck chinese characters were. I remember always trying to fit one english syllable to each chinese character, and thinking that it would work. and then always getting confused when it fit half of the time, and didn't most of the time[cause there were usually english translations nearby]

It's not discouragement, per se, but since I live in Memphis pretty much everyone that finds out I'm studying Japanese automatically assumes that I'm angling for a job at the Toyota plant being built just to the south of here, in Mississippi. I guess it's better than being told I'm stupid for trying to better myself, but it gets annoying.

I mean, who learns a foreign language so they can spend the rest of their life in the American South?

Filipinos, apparently XD

QuackingShoe Wrote:...It's actually just surprising in general how derisive people seem to be of language learning...here in the US of A...Who learns another language? We already know English...Languages are hard!

But yet, people are always saying, "Why don't they speak English?!?" about people who move here! They expect them to just read a book and viola, you're an expert! But they complain about having to be waited on by non-English speakers even for something as simple as ordering a hamburger! (I can understand complaining about offshore support, because when you are trying to fix a problem, you should be able to understand the people you are talking to. Support should always be done within your country, or by people both fluent and with their accents smoothed out.). But in everyday, situations, you don't want English learners to wait on you??? OK, so just how is anyone supposed to learn English, then??? They think foreigners can just pick up a book, "learn" English at the snap of their fingers, and be fluent (without speaking first)...how the heck is THAT supposed to happen???

You have to use a language for significant time every day to learn it.

But all the people who complain can't speak a language themselves, even if they temporarily "learned" on in high school. (They should understand better than anyone!)

Oh, the irony!

People complain even if they speak English well but have a slight accent. I think most people in the USA feel English is the easiest language in the world and everyone should just inherently know it.

I can only think of one time a complaint that someone working somewhere that didn't speak English was a legitimate concern. There was a life guard who didn't understand English in Atlantic City. She didn't even know basic words she needed to do her job. (safe, dangerous, swim, water...)

You know, someone in my language group is reading a book titled "Japanland" about a foreigner's experiences in Japan, and about their traditions and obscure or annoying behavior and customs that permeate their modern culture.

One thing it mentioned is that while Japanese are flattered when someone who barely knows the language makes an attempt to speak it, they dislike it when a foreigner becomes fluent. It is not your imagination, and most people find this baffling.

I haven't read the book yet. But it makes sense if you know some of the history of Japan up to the Satsuma Rebellion.

Consider that for thousands of years, until the time of Commodore Perry, Japan was extremely isolated, even deliberately insular (after a tough war with Korea which left Japanese boys orphans for years while the majority of healthy men had to defend Japan). But they were always extremely suspicious of foreigners even before this war, when, because of Japan's isolation and the war skills and insular culture of the samurai, and although they were almost never threatened seriously by anyone, foreigners were just that strange, in their opinion, and they had derogatory terms for them, including something that meant "hairy gorilla"!

Though Japan has a great tradition of treating guests with hospitality, it still has a very insular idea of what it means to be Japanese. It's not just about citizenship or even race exclusively, but about foreigners always being percieved strictly as foreigners.

Foreigners were always a threat in the Japanese mind, like the boogeyman under your bed. And in modern times, they are at least (conciously or not) viewed as an "invasion" when they try to become like Japanese or become citizens. Becoming a citizen can be extremely difficult in Japan, even if you have lived there for years and married someone Japanese. Though you may fulfill the legal requirements, you have to be given permission, and many people aren't.

Most Japanese people will deny they have such a bias -- they don't dislike foreigners, neccessarily. I think it's something they can't see themselves, because it is an unconcious, across-the-board, non-specific distrust of foreigners as anything other than guests.

mystes Wrote:My advice is not to get suckered into wasting your learning time by the promise of useless credits.

The credits aren't useless when they are required for your degree.

alyks Wrote:Language teachers are meant to force you to output, because they expect you are going to be doing input on your own time. How will you do input in a class setting?

You know, that makes logical sense, but it makes no practical sense in terms of building long-term skills. (I say this not knowing what kind of "output" that class is doing.)

The idea that input is something you do only by yourself, and only output should be done in a group, is inherently faulty (specific to language-learning). Just reading or listening to audio alone is not interactive, or at best, it's only moderately interactive. Especially when you are learning a language which you can't practice in public on every street corner (like Spanish on any corner in America), you need to get this practice in a group -- it's likely the only place you can consistently do it.

I think you need to speak to other people out loud, so you can get used to the sound of your own voice speaking the language. And you need to listen to other people speaking the language. My hope is that whatever Japanese classes I eventually take will have a lot of interactive conversation practice, not just output, the way they do Spanish in the U.S. Even reading aloud (not just writing) is important, both for practice reading and speaking, and for hearing the prose in your head (while someone else reads) at the same time as you read.

But will you/should you do more output than input? Of course, yes.

I think you statements about Japanese are dealing with the older generations of Japan. I couldn't picture a high school or college age person being xenophobic, but I could picture this behavior in people who are slightly older. This is just what I think though...

何ガって、知ってるじゃないか

What does that have to do with anything? Nothing, I just like it.

I have to agree, i feel that is for the slightly older generation... more and more people are beginning to think that japanese isn't the "impossible" language to learn as they used to think it was... i do remember about 5 or so years ago when i first saw someone (online) that was fluent in japanese that was white... he was the guy that made http://www.yesjapan.com... it blew my mind because i thought it was impossible myself

TerryS, I didn't say that. It was Phuana.

mystes Wrote:

alyks Wrote:http://www.antimoon.com/how/input-boydell.htm

...In particular, the section on how to read in a foreign language was very interesting

Thank you, mystes, for that link!

@alyks: I agree, and I think the "Pause and Think" method he refers to is a great idea -- more importantly, inspired by his example, I see you will get a lot more out of it if you write things down. I tend to absorb major concepts and forget details, so even if I just "pause and think" in my head, I am liable to forget all about it.

I am especially inspired by this part:

Quote:Around 1997, Michal and I decided to use only English to communicate. We must have spent thousands of hours talking to each other in English between school classes, attracting the puzzled looks of teachers and classmates. Speaking in English quickly became so natural that we forgot what it was like to speak Polish to each other. The decision to switch to English required some courage, but it was just what I needed at the time.

I always want to practice Japanese speaking and listening, but in most situations this is not good, especially if I am at work. I am horrible and most Japanese around here (not a major metropolitan area) are fluent in English, or at least decent at it. I can't afford misunderstandings if I'm working. Or I would be too busy to conduct a conversation at my beginner's pace.

It's one of the reasons I started a language group, because we need to practice together. Only one native Japanese member joins us, but this author's story confirms my idea that even practice with non-natives is useful. Right now the usefulness can be limited, because we don't know enough to hold interesting conversations -- but that should improve.

I've tried to help the conversations along by having topics people can prepare for ahead, but this reminds me we should spend some time each session on "anything goes" conversation.

phauna Wrote:Yeah, again antimoon goes really far in what they say with little proof

[sarcasm]Oh, you noticed that?[/sarcasm] Seriously, it's exaggerated for sure, but it does illustrate a point -- to become fluent, you need lots more input than you'll ever get at school, and you need it way earlier. The concept that I gleaned from this was that the proportion of input to output should be substantial at the beginning, because we naturally learn that way. We develop a "feel" or an "ear" for what is correct, and it becomes instinctive.

phauna Wrote:As for other bad English speakers, that's my point exactly, they only learned through input, they never spoke to a native, or even to each other. And they suck at speaking.

Absolutely! I suck at speaking (something I am trying to correct).

phauna Wrote:Take Antimoon, and Khatzu saying all classes suck, with a grain of salt. Actually the Antimoon guys even state that they had many many hours of classroom instruction on top of SRS and input method. This can't be discounted.

Seconded!

phauna Wrote:Not all your output has to be corrected every time, anyone who thinks so will never speak a word.

I think what he is saying is learn slowly rather than just blaze ahead recklessly. If you write or speak incorrectly a lot at the beginning, the wrong patterns will be reinforced. Even if you have correction, as stated on Antimoon, it won't help if you can't remember it, and you will continue to reinforce your "wrong" learning. The practice of being careful and only writing or speaking familiar sentences that you know are correct allows you to learn them correctly and consistently reinforce them. (You should build on them gradually, but only after you have simpler constructions firmly absorbed.)

This is true even in animal training -- it is far better to avoid bad behavior than to correct it, because the mere action of doing something reinforces it. This is true even after only a few times! In contrast, in self-improvement books, you will read that the only sure-fire way to destroy a bad habit is to replace it with a new one, and that takes longer. Your brain is wired to the old habit, and it takes several times the time and effort to both avoid the old habit and adopt the new habit in its place.

If you are like me, and you started by, quote, "writing what you actually want to write" (complicated constructions), you will find yourself struggling later because you can't remember it. Far better to focus on basic stuff first, and learn it well.

It may be that we see shortcomings or errors in the philosphy of Antimoon, but it's all the more useful for our picking it apart like this! This entire discussion of teaching/learning philosphies has been extremely enlightening.