I would say that this site and its stories are pretty much all I need to learn the kanji. I am not new to kanji so I don't really need to be held by the hand when I learn it anymore. I have read the PDF section(or parts of it) of the book and I think that I would be fine without the book. If I have doubt about stroke order or direction I would just look it up so there is really no problem there. I am sure this question is asked a lot but can someone honestly tell me... do I NEED the book? Because I would rather not spend the money and I think that site would be just fine for learning kanji using Heisig's method. Has anyone mastered the kanji by just using this site? Are any of Heisig's books a need? Also a question that is a bit off topic...what it KO? When people say that are they referring to kunyomi and onyomi?

EDIT: Just one more question. When I learn all the kanji is the 2nd and 3rd book useful? I think that I really won't need them because I can just use the 10,000 sentence method to help with that. Plus from what I hear the later books just list the readings...and I hate that. I already tried learning that way and it did not work at all. So any thoughts on the 2nd and 3rd books?

You want to learn Japanese but you won't even spend like $20 on a book? While you can use this site without having the RTK1 book, it was never meant to be used that way and it's not really fair to Heisig is it? If you aren't going to buy the book anyway, why not go all the way and just download a pirated pdf from the net? Don't you like the feel of an actual real book in your hand?

What you get in the first book that you can't see on this site is the explanations of the primitives and how they change with position etc, it also tells you how to use the book and study correctly. For RTK 2 and 3, you need the books because the Japanese readings aren't on this site.

KO stands for Kanji Odyssey, which is a series of books for studying kanji.

Shirow66 Wrote:You want to learn Japanese but you won't even spend like $20 on a book? While you can use this site without having the RTK1 book, it was never meant to be used that way and it's not really fair to Heisig is it? If you aren't going to buy the book anyway, why not go all the way and just download a pirated pdf from the net? Don't you like the feel of an actual real book in your hand?

What you get in the first book that you can't see on this site is the explanations of the primitives and how they change with position etc, it also tells you how to use the book and study correctly. For RTK 2 and 3, you need the books because the Japanese readings aren't on this site.

KO stands for Kanji Odyssey, which is a series of books for studying kanji.

I have spent way to much on Japanese books. I just need to know what I need and don't need. I think I will buy it. From what I have seen in the PDF section on the book is that some stories are really good so maybe another $20 is nothing. Thanks! I don't know if you saw my edit but here it is...

Just one more question. When I learn all the kanji is the 2nd and 3rd book useful? I think that I really won't need them because I can just use the 10,000 sentence method to help with that. Plus from what I hear the later books just list the readings...and I hate that. I already tried learning that way and it did not work at all. It is better to see kanji in context and learn what the readings as they come. So any thoughts on the 2nd and 3rd books?

The second book is basically to teach you the on-yomi readings for the kanji in book 1. It does this by grouping together kanji with the same readings and teaching you to identify certain "signal primitives", which signal the reading of the kanji. It lists the kanji, the reading, and then has a kanji compound word that uses the reading. Heisig specifically states that he wants you to review using cards with the compound word displayed, and you then produce the reading and meaning.

The third book introduces new kanji with keywords up to a total of 3000 I believe it was, and then in the second half proceeds to give you the on-yomi readings for these new kanji in the same fashion as in book 2. I haven't completed book 1 yet, so I can't speak for the values of books 2-3, but I think many people just go for the keywords in book 1+3, to learn 3000 kanji, and then use sentences etc to learn the readings of those kanji.

This site doesn't describe any of the primitives used in the stories. Many of the stories here are based off of the primitives or stories that Heisig gives, so you might not fully grasp them without that background knowledge.

Being able to finish the book and read the last page is a reward unto itself, worth way more than the 20-30$ price tag.

[ファブリス]

You could skip the third volume once you have nailed down the first one. But first you'll have to succesfully complete the first volume.

To say the truth, we really don't hear much about people complete book two. The book has value, but it seems most people are eager to dive in actual Japanese at that point and pickup readings on the go (plus using SRS, sentences etc).

As for the first volume well if you like guesswork you can always try. For some characters it won't be clear which primitive is "genuine" and wich are made up by other members. This can sometimes become a problem, because you want to avoid seeing doubles of keywords or primitives further down the line. And you also want to know what are all the original choices Heisig made, so that you can make a good decision yourself if you find yourself wanting to change a keyword or primitive meaning.

So yeah, don't worry about book 2 and 3. I recommend you to get the first volume.

You know, the thought crossed my mind if it was possible to take the course without the book, but it is better to have the book. Why? Because then you could learn anywhere you take the book with you. Otherwise, you have to be at a computer and logged on. And, you do not get any of Heisig's original thoughts.

Once you get to section 3 in the book, you will not have Heisig's keywords. You have to rely on other's thoughts and tweeks which work for them and not necessarily you. Then you will be out of the loop because everyone is learning off a source you do not have access to. You have to guess at what everyone is talking about. Also, the book has an index that is helpful for looking stuff up and reviewing. This book should be used as a reference long after all the Kanji are learned.

One last thing. What if you got to meet Heisig. Would you tell him you learned his method without buying his book? That you figured out a loop and cheating him out of any potential money? What if he asked you "I am working on a 5th addition. What changes in the book do you think I should make to help students out?"

Don't get me wrong. This website is the best companion to the book. I dont even have flash cards because of it. I do take notes in a notebook as I learn and keep a running list on a word document. This website is great for REVIEW and to ask questions NOT addressed in the book.

Just buy the book and join the club.

I forgot to mention this. Even if you are not new to Kanji, the book is set up to learn in a very specific way. The whole point is to go in order until you get to the end. Regardless of what you may already know, you should start from the beginning and learn the Heisig method. That is the one downside. You have to learn all 2042 Kanji first, before you know how to use them.

I use the Movie Method (blog). Heisig's book is not needed with it.

I win! Yay! But it was more a response to the thread itself instead of what that other guy said. I think this site is cool for normal RTKers.

[ファブリス]

bodhisamaya Wrote:If you feel bad about not buying the book, send Heisig a $2 check. That is most likely more than his share from each book sold anyways.

What do you know about the royalties that Heisig gets from the book?

Fyi, according to some email forwarded to me by woelpad, the royalties from the RtK books "have been donated to a scholarship fund for young scholars to work at our research Institute" (quoting Heisig). As for the institute I'll assume it is "Nanzan Social and Religious Research Institute" (cf. James Heisig Wikipedia page).

And I don't see anybody "attacking" ZeRinku.

alyks Wrote:But it was more a response to the thread itself

The man is obviously interested in RtK since he mentions the PDF file as well as volume 2 & 3. You might as well have added a link to your "Movie Method" if you were so inclined to help him..

bodhisamaya Wrote:You ABSOLUTELY do not need the book. I would even say you can't use the book effectively without this sight. I checked out RTK at the library but would never have gotten past #600 without this sight. I can't imagine anyone would have and gotten good memorable stories without the inspiration of how other people have tackled each kanji and probably less than 10% would have finished all 2042. Authors do not write books for money. They write books for ego. If you feel bad about not buying the book, send Heisig a $2 check. That is most likely more than his share from each book sold anyways. kanjikoohii has made everyone involved in the process of RTK plenty of money. I would have never bought book two if it weren't for this sight. It was a legitimate question. It is a shame some have attacked you for it.

You make it sound like the hundreds, if not thousands of students that Heisig has gotten feedback from, from just reading his books, do not exsist. According to you, how could anyone learn from the book alone without the benifit of this website? How long has this website been around anyway? Certainly not since 1977 when the first book was published.

You can play baseball with a stick, not a bat, and a tennis ball. You could eat soup with a fork if you really try. Yes, you could learn the Kanji from this site alone, but you will work twice as hard and less efficiently then with both.

And for the record, I bought the books 1 & 2 BEFORE I even knew this site exsited.

Wisher Wrote:

bodhisamaya Wrote:...

You make it sound like the hundreds, if not thousands of students that Heisig has gotten feedback from, from just reading his books, do not exsist. According to you, how could anyone learn from the book alone without the benifit of this website? How long has this website been around anyway? Certainly not since 1977 when the first book was published.

You can play baseball with a stick, not a bat, and a tennis ball. You could eat soup with a fork if you really try. Yes, you could learn the Kanji from this site alone, but you will work twice as hard and less efficiently then with both.
....

Heisig's book and this website are very much necessary for the method. It really wouldn't be easy to have one without the other.

This site is pretty awesome to use with RTK, and trying to use it alone without the book wouldn't give you all the information you need. Wisher here sums it up quite nicely.

This might be the start of another topic, but it is related to the thread.

I will agree that this website is the best thing to ever happen to the books.

Here are some questions:
What does Heisig think about the website?
Does he ever comment in it?
Is he a member here?
Why has he not mentioned the website in his latest edition?
Would he mention it?
How would he answer the original question, "Do I honestly NEED the book?"

Keep in mind that I am new here and dont know if these questions have already been answered.

And thank you Alkys for you comments. BTW, I have checked out your website and think it is a great idea. I was actually thinking of doing something similar. My first was the kanji for Transport: Luke and Ben-Kenobi needed a TRANSPORT to Alderon. They have a MEETING with Han Solo. Things get ruff in the cantina and an Arm (FLESH) gets cut off with a Light Sabre. (SWORD)

[ファブリス]

bodhisamaya Wrote:Wonderful! but if your reason for buying a book is to help a charity, donate the entire $25 to the charity instead of the fraction it will get from royalties.

That institute may not be a charity. What about the publishers? Nanzan University Press is also not likely to be the kind of publisher looking to print big sellers. Their money also very likely get used in "humanistic" ways. And either way, they have also to be supported for printing RtK in the first place, no? You buy a product also to say "Thanks, please write/publish/deliver/stock/etc more of these".

ZeRinku in order to use just this site to master kanji, you would have to follow an alternative method to Heisigs. Without the stories ad descriptions for the primitives, the entire process is without its foundation. It's not a big expense, and for your $25/?15 you will have a written record of your enormous achievement once you've finished. This site is invaluable, but it doesn't replace the books. It is designed and functions perfectly as an accompaniment to the book. That's the tried and tested method.

When I first started learning with this method I tried desperately to find a copy, but nowhere had it, not even Amazon.com (this was before the new edition came out). I found a PDF version online, and was using that for a few months, but it was hard to get motivated, and I was always staring at a computer screen. Then I found a copy of the new edition in a Nagoya bookstore last year. I bought it on the spot (I remember it had a little note in Japanese about the author living nearby or something). After I bought the book studying became remarkably easier. I could study on the train, and make notes in the margins. I could study the book while looking at something else on my computer. When I got past the halfway point, my girlfriend said she wanted to try it, so I ripped the book in half (the binding was so shoddy it was already tending toward that state) and gave her the first part.

My point is that the physical book can allow a person to connect with something in a way a display on the computer can't.

The first third of the book is a great way to start Kanji Study. You understand the reasoning behind this study form, get some great examples and a good grasp on the method behind RtK.

Once Heisig leaves the stories out in the second portion of the book, it's almost pointless to continue following, though he has an important interjection every so often.

The site was born out of the book after all, so if you feel you've been educated with this approach, it's worth 20 dollars just to give Heisig the credit he deserves, and you have the option of handing the book down to someone once you're finished with it.

You dont _need_ the book.

But if intend to spend a cent in learning japanese, buy the book.

The book is VERY worthful. For me it was the second at my top list of japanese resources.

Also, consider donating to RevTK. It won't help you learn any japanese, but RevTK deserves a lot. RevTK rocks. I've donated and it felt soo good!

Personally I think that if you're going to spend money on learning japanese, there are way better books to spend your money on, mainly Minna no Nihongo. However, if you feel you want to recognize kanji better, this is easily worth the 20 dollars.

I'll try to respond to Wisher's comments based on the correspondence I had with the author.

Wisher Wrote:What does Heisig think about the website?

He only knows it through third parties [edit] and through the mail that Fabrice sent him before the site was launched, but that was such a long time ago that he can't recall any of the details [/edit]. I don't think he ever visited the site.

Wisher Wrote:Does he ever comment in it?
Is he a member here?

I don't think so. Robert Rauther, the German translator, is and has commented on occasion.

Wisher Wrote:Why has he not mentioned the website in his latest edition?

Because this site is not commercial. There's no contractual link between Fabrice and Heisig, the research institute or the book publisher, hence no basis for official recognition. Quoting "... (1) when a site starts charging a fee to use material copyright in the book, some kind of a contract has to be drawn up [with the institute]; and (2) simply reproducing the material from the book for free distribution is frowned on."

Also because he has/had his stakes on another program, KanjiGym. Quoting: "... the trial balloon [KanjiGym Light] was successful but the programmer has been dragging his heels, despite an advance from the German publisher. God knows when it will get finished." (Mail dating june 14th.)

Wisher Wrote:Would he mention it?

No. He did not even mention the French version, "Les kanji dans la t?te" in the latest editions of RTK2/3, which surprised me more. Did Maniette, who published the book on his own, stray too far from the original text?

Wisher Wrote:How would he answer the original question, "Do I honestly NEED the book?"

Ask him.

[ファブリス]

esgrove Wrote:When I got past the halfway point, my girlfriend said she wanted to try it, so I ripped the book in half (...)

That cracked me up, haha. Who knew the bad binding from RtK 5th edition, first run, had some good sides

EDIT: Oh, that gave me an idea. See, if you buy the book, you can rip it up or even burn it slowly during the cold winter months, when you get frustrated by the super-multi-punch-primitive-combos-of-hell!

Yes, you need the book. Why? The stroke order. Trust me on this, I used to think the same thing. However, the stroke order... if you use this site's flashcards, the best way to test yourself is to write the kanji "answer" on paper. And you MUST learn the proper stroke order. If you don't feel like learning the stroke order the proper way and your own way... you will be doomed. If there was no stroke order in RTK1, I would agree with you, however. But trust me, the stroke order is very important.

smujohnson Wrote:Yes, you need the book. Why? The stroke order. Trust me on this, I used to think the same thing. However, the stroke order... if you use this site's flashcards, the best way to test yourself is to write the kanji "answer" on paper. And you MUST learn the proper stroke order. If you don't feel like learning the stroke order the proper way and your own way... you will be doomed. If there was no stroke order in RTK1, I would agree with you, however. But trust me, the stroke order is very important.

Stroke order is overrated. It's important to learn the basic system, for example how to write 口 (if you write it wrong you won't be able to count strokes) but as for knowing the correct stroke order of individual kanji: Not needed. Most japanese don't, so why should we?

Ask a japanese to write 左 then 右 and look if they wrote the above primite "by ones side" the same way both times. I bet most of them will, which is not correct.

It may not be that important to get the stroke order 100% correct all the time, but having a fair grasp of it (that is, getting it right 99% of the time) will allow you to write faster and with better results.