I've been using this method, and this website, for the past year and a half-- since I moved to Japan. During that time, I've been working full-time and I've re-located twice. Consequently, I've had to take numerous long breaks from kanji study. (There are only so many hours in a day, and so many days in a week-- especially on a Japanese work schedule!)

Anyway, over the course of 18 months, I've only gotten halfway through the book. Every time I resume studying (after a one or two month break) I have to review-- from square one. I've been doing A LOT of reviewing. Over and over. Going back and reviewing ALL the kanji I'd studied before, then moving forward again. Inching a bit further each time, gradually covering new ground.

I realize that this isn't the ideal way to use the system, or to study kanji in general. However, my unique situation has brought up a very important and universally relevant question which I'd like to bring out in this forum: What kind of experience have people had using this system in THE LONG TERM? I've seen tons of examples of people competing the system in a few months to a year. Some determined souls have aparently done it in as little as a month or two. And these people appear to have been able to retain what they'd learned to a significant degree-- IN THE SHORT TERM.

However, I seriously doubt that many of those individuals have sustained their study habits, uninteruppted, for years at a time after completing the book. That sounds great in theory-- but in the real world, with demands of job, family, friends... with illnesses and home purchases and moving and getting married and raising babies... etc. etc. etc.... in the real world, sooner or later everyone lapses in their study. It's inevitable.

What experiences have people had with retention and recognition over the long haul? Those proud souls who have completed the system, and those ambitious individuals who are well on their way to completion-- what's your experience with LONG TERM RETENTION AND RECOGNITION using this system? I've looked all through these forums, and I've found nothing at all on this topic.

Well I've done my SRS reps every day for about eight months, and I can't imagine not doing them. I suspect that there is a certain critical mass of language which you need to attain somehow, after which you will easily remember and keep most things in your memory. I think no language can ever go unmaintained for a long period of time without at least some sliding. I imagine once you can read a book relatively easily, and can listen to TV and the radio with understanding then there will be little need for an SRS, except perhaps for some hard, esoteric words and phrases. The difficult part is gaining that basic fluency.

ihatobu Wrote:However, I seriously doubt that many of those individuals have sustained their study habits, uninteruppted, for years at a time after completing the book. That sounds great in theory-- but in the real world, with demands of job, family, friends... with illnesses and home purchases and moving and getting married and raising babies... etc. etc. etc.... in the real world, sooner or later everyone lapses in their study. It's inevitable.

People manage to spend hours every other day exercising to keep fit. People read novels before bed every night. People read their bibles every morning before work. People pray in the direction of Mecca three (is it three?) times a day every day of their lives. There are countless hobbyists who have to work at their hobby at least nearly every day (musicians and artists, for instance), and at incredible investments in time. Why would it be inevitable for someone not to be able to review 15 flashcards a day? I think you're severely underestimating people, or the difficulty of these reviews.

That argument invalidates the entire attempt at language learning anyway, really. Every aspect of the language takes minimal amounts of effort every day to become proficient, not just the kanji.

Separate from that, I can't comment on long-term retention personally because I'm not long-term yet. There are a number of long-haulers around here, though.

[Katsuo]

About 13 years ago I learned around 2,600 kanji using Heisig's method. I revised them at first, but then did no targeted revision for about ten years.

I completely forgot about 400 kanji. Those were less common characters, nearly all in RTK3. In other words, I retained the kanji so long as I occasionally came across them while reading.

It's the same as with every other skill: use it or lose it.

No offense to the OP, but I think you need to re-evaluate how you manage your time.

Learning a language is no easy task and you really need to be able to dedicate a significant amount of time to it every day. Half of RTK1 in 18 months is roughly equivalent to learning 2 kanji per day. I know you had to start over and re-review countless times (I've been down this path) but consistency is the key. I don't think there's anything you could learn long-term if you study for a few months, ignore it for a few months, study for a few months, etc, etc.

The time you put in will equal the results you get. A lot of us on this site are SRS junkies. I have probably missed less than 2 weeks total of review days in 2 years of using a SRS.

Indeed, time management and consistency is the key. I've only been going at this for about 5 months now (finished rtk1 in 3 months), and I haven't missed a single day of reviews except for a few days when my internet went down. Some days, it was VERY HARD to make myself review. But you know what, after doing it for so long now, it has become a part of my life. Its just what I do every day.

The most important thing above all, is to try to never miss a day, no matter what. Because when you miss a day, you may just think "I can make up for it tomorrow". But then when tomorrow comes, its suddenly much easier to blow it off again. And before you know it, you've completely stopped.

I'm not saying to sit there and try to work in an hour or more of study every day, but its very important that you at least do SOMETHING, even if you can only manage about 10 or 15 minutes. Maybe wake up a few minutes early in the mornings to try and fit some reviews in, or make yourself do some before you go to bed.

Of course, there can always be some major life-shattering circumstances that can keep you from getting it done on some days. You do have to take care of what's important in your life above all else. The key is to just get back in there as soon as you POSSIBLY CAN.

QuackingShoe Wrote:People manage to spend hours every other day exercising to keep fit. People read novels before bed every night. People read their bibles every morning before work... Why would it be inevitable for someone not to be able to review 15 flashcards a day? I think you're severely underestimating people, or the difficulty of these reviews. That argument invalidates the entire attempt at language learning anyway, really. Every aspect of the language takes minimal amounts of effort every day to become proficient, not just the kanji.

Yes, of course. Without a doubt, a significant amount of time and energy must be invested when learning a language. That's a given. However, the problem I was describing was INTERRUPTIONS-- and the fact that a kanji learning system like this one is heavily dependent on short-term memory. At least until a sufficient amount of literacy is developed and reading becomes a regular routine in itself. One question I am asking is, at what point does the system become ratched-- so you don't backslide and have a tremendous amount of catching up to do every time your regular study routine is disturbed.

When I started the reviews involved 15 flash cards a day. By the time I got half-way through the book the reviews involved hundreds of kanji at a time. As one progresses, and the number of kanji increases, the reviews require more and more time. Long-term retention does improve over time, but not as fast as the rate of increase in review volume. So it's like walking up a hill the steepness of which increases the higher you get. I imagine that this isn't so much of a problem is you can progress without interruption, because in that case you don't lose short-term memory.

I imagine once you make it through the initial kanji wall, the amount of reviews per day diminishes drastically. Once every card is implemented, and as cards get closer to the fourth box, you will get back to that 15 reviews per day situation. You just need to stick with it. You can't get something for nothing, after all.

Edit: And you live in Tokyo? How hard can it really be to get daily practice with using kanji? Just step outside!

I appreciate all your advice, and I can see that consistency is the key. I became fluent in spoken Japanese by studying where and when I had the time to do so, often for short intensive periods, then very little when work and family responsibilities became heavier. But that obviously doesn't work for kanji study. One way or another, my kanji study routine has to be more consistent and uniform. Consistency is the key. Thanks for your suggestions and advice!

ihatobu Wrote:Yes, of course. Without a doubt, a significant amount of time and energy must be invested when learning a language. That's a given. However, the problem I was describing was INTERRUPTIONS-- and the fact that a kanji learning system like this one is heavily dependent on short-term memory. At least until a sufficient amount of literacy is developed and reading becomes a regular routine in itself. One question I am asking is, at what point does the system become ratched-- so you don't backslide and have a tremendous amount of catching up to do every time your regular study routine is disturbed.

When I started the reviews involved 15 flash cards a day. By the time I got half-way through the book the reviews involved hundreds of kanji at a time. As one progresses, and the number of kanji increases, the reviews require more and more time. Long-term retention does improve over time, but not as fast as the rate of increase in review volume. So it's like walking up a hill the steepness of which increases the higher you get. I imagine that this isn't so much of a problem is you can progress without interruption, because in that case you don't lose short-term memory.

I would disagree that it relies heavily on short-term memory. After just 3 or 4 reviews, a card won't be appearing for another month or so. That's definitely long term memory right there, at least as long as you keep reviewing it.
The number of cards you have to review does increase as you get further and further along. There are two primary factors that play into this:
1. The amount of new cards that you add each day
2. The number of cards you miss each day

#1 can obviously be controlled. If you are getting too many reviews to handle, just cut back on your new cards for a couple weeks.
#2 is much more difficult to control. If you find that you are missing more than about 70% or so of your kanji each day, you should seriously consider if you are doing something wrong, or if you can improve the way you remember them. I think the big problem would come in if you go a long time without reviewing and then come back. If you start off having to review 1000 kanji, and you end up missing about half of them, then thats 500 kanji going right back into the first stack. That's like adding 500 brand new kanji to learn all over again. It will take a while for them to work their way back through the srs and get up to longer intervals. So, if you are still adding new kanji on top of all that, your number of reviews may be pretty difficult to manage.

Having finished RTK 1 a few months ago, I can tell you that the majority of the kanji feel pretty much permanently glued in my head to the point where I dont really need to continue reviewing keywords and stories. However, just because something "feels" permanent doesn't mean it actually is. For example, my grandmother lost fluency in her native language of Norwegian after not actively using it for several years. As an intermediate learner, I think taking even a week off from my Japanese studies could be fairly detrimental to my progress, and studying at least once a day really seems the key to optimal learning and retention. The point is, its never too late to backslide, but the more experienced you are, the more leeway your brain grants you.

But, as long as I study regularly through reading in context, I really dont find keyword/story reviewing to be absolutely necessary because the reading exposure alone seems to keep all that fresh enough. So to answer your question, my experience with long term retention has been very good. I definitely don't think my study habits will ever lapse too much at this point. I've invested far too much time to let it all far apart. I will probably be reading at least 15 to 30 minutes of Japanese per day even in the nursing home someday.

Dragg Wrote:But, as long as I study regularly through reading in context, I really dont find keyword/story reviewing to be absolutely necessary because the reading exposure alone seems to keep all that fresh enough.

Dragg, be careful doing this. I did the same thing (I was reading a TON) and skimped on reviewing. After 6 months I realized I could no longer write a lot of the Kanji. My vocab and grammar skills definitely improved, but my ability to write and recall Kanji were abysmal. So I started RTK over again (this time with Japanese keywords).

I personally intend on continuing the SRS after finishing RTK1, and also joining it to concerted sentence/reading study/SRS. Seems that'll be the best way to retain this stuff long-term.

Some programs put off repetitions for a year or further once it's determined you really know the item. After finishing the book, I may have to move my SRS to something like SuperMemo, so that the really sunken-in kanji go away for a long, long period of time. I mean, I'm guessing I'd remember a good deal of early and simple kanji for years already--so a good SRS shouldn't show them to me for years. I think the next time SuperMemo has me reviewing words like "Watashi" is already sometime in 2010, and I'm sure it'll put it further into the future after that. As it should be. Even this site's level 8/240 day spacing seems not enough for the most-remembered kanji.

@ suffah

I agree 100 percent. I've noticed a similar decline in my ability to write the more complicated kanji by hand. I seem to always remember the keywords but sometimes the details of the stories get fuzzy (although I almost never fail to recognize them).

The main reason I stopped reviewing on this site was because the English keywords weren't fading in my mind the way many people think they are supposed to. This was causing some problems with my reading because whenever I encountered a new or uncommon compound I would immediately think of the English keywords, and only afterwards would I guess at the ON readings. This was slowing my reading down so I figured that I would stop reviewing the keywords/stories and, instead, focus on solidifying the on-yomi as my dominant layer of knowledge by drilling RTK 2 and reading in context. This process has helped my reading a lot, but as you mentioned, my production has already taken a turn for the worse.

So maybe I should try the Japanese keywords after all. At least that would squeeze English out of the equation and get my writing back on track.

Zarxrax Wrote:I would disagree that it relies heavily on short-term memory. After just 3 or 4 reviews, a card won't be appearing for another month or so. That's definitely long term memory right there, at least as long as you keep reviewing it.

I originally shared Zarxax's concept of short-term vs. long-term memory, but actual empirical experience has shown that this black and white distinction is overly simplistic. This last interruption in my kanji study has been the longest yet-- about four months. After a four month break, my test scores were abysmally bad, but I decided to do a second pass just a few days after the first one. On the second pass, I breezed through the kanji that I'd studied before at light speed. Zoom, zoom-- instant recognition with hardly any additional study.

Obviously, some form of "short-term" memory is involved here. Let's call it "intermediary-term memory." My sense is that this "intermediate-term memory" is a actually a complex composite of (pretty much indelible) long-term mnemonic handle associations supported by short-term memory associations. In other words, there are numerous gaps in my "permanent" mnemonic associations that are dependent upon short-term memory and instantly fixed by recent review. Unless you drop your study for months at a time and then resume it again, you'll never notice this phenomenon-- so you'll probably never suspect that it exists. It will seem like your kanji retention is "permanent."

But, as Dragg says, "Just because something "feels" permanent doesn't mean it actually is."

Yeah, same thing happened to me. I went through and learned the first 150 kanji, then stopped. Later I went through again and learned 250 in one day, because the first 150 were easy as pie. Then I stopped again...

ihatobu Wrote:I originally shared Zarxax's concept of short-term vs. long-term memory, but actual empirical experience has shown that this black and white distinction is overly simplistic...

Note that I said "as long as you keep reviewing". If you don't use anything for a while, you will certainly forget it. Just because you forget something doesn't mean its not in your long term memory. If you are expecting to learn something to a point that you can stop reviewing it altogether and still never forget it, then that's quite impossible!

The SRS system, although not perfect, tries to emulate what happens in your memory. The fact that when you take a break (1 or 2 weeks), a ton of reviews show up, implies that you have in fact forgotten a lot of stuff.
Production/ recognition: if you stop reviewing RTK and try to retain kanjis by reading in context, you will probably get to be good at recognition, but you will lose gradually your production ability. That is not good or bad in itself, it depends in what your objectives are. I would like to be good at everything, but time is so limited..

Why not continue production reviews, and add the context reading/sentences on top?

For the long haul, you will have seen so many of these characters that they cease to be an issue completely. Also, most stories fade away. If you're fairly advanced in your Japanese and still find yourself doing kanji reps, I would say it's not the most efficient use of your time...

Those that did RTK in a month technically only did initial stories/reviews in a month. It was likely another 2 to 3 months to get 90% of RTK into stack 5 (my benchmark for "finishing" RTK). Even then, they'll slowly get a majority of their cards into stack 6, then 7, then 8, etc.

Even then, you'll move onto actual Japanese study and still keep up your RTK.

Here's my long haul: 50% cards in Stack 8, 95% of RTK cards in Stack 4 or higher, ~25,000 reviews since June 2007.

ihatobu Wrote:

Zarxrax Wrote:I would disagree that it relies heavily on short-term memory. After just 3 or 4 reviews, a card won't be appearing for another month or so. That's definitely long term memory right there, at least as long as you keep reviewing it.

I originally shared Zarxax's concept of short-term vs. long-term memory, but actual empirical experience has shown that this black and white distinction is overly simplistic.

Just FYI, if you remember it after more than about a minute without rehearsal, it's in long-term memory.

This may seem like an irrelevant distinction, but I'd argue it's important--remembering that "long-term memory" and "permanently learned" are really not very closely related at all will prevent you from making the "black and white distinction" in the first place.

~J