I want to have the entire book typed in almost word for word -- but it's really a lot of work. It takes me upwards of 30 minutes per lesson, and I am starting to run out of steam. It would be really sweet if we could get like 4 people in total interested in having the whole thing in text for SRS entry --- and then divide it into 4 quarters and each type our share. If you are SERIOUSLY INTERESTED then please get ahold of me. This can't stretch out forever, so however we divide it --- it should be done no slower than 1 day per chapter and trade our chapters each day.

I want to type in the workbook volume 1. If there are people interested volume 2 as well, thought not as essential to me.

This is the book I want to type in:
http://www.thejapanshop.com/product.php?productid=17065

You should ALREADY OWN IT or be able to buy it within the very near future if you want to take part. (Don't ask for scans or something please, I won't violate copyright.) This is the best book out there to cover every common reading of all Jouyou kanji with actual sentences.

I don't have the reference book and am not interested in it. Feel free to use this thread to contact people wanting to do that if there are any!!!

Thanks for pointing that book out! I'd missed that one and it looks like it would be very useful for me.

I don't have the time to take on a project of that level, but I wish you luck in getting it done.

I have 1 suggestion, though... Perhaps the typing of each chapter would be beneficial in itself... Splitting it in 4 may get it done faster, but not necessarily better. Just a thought.

Or just use a scanner and OCR it. It's *much* faster that way. OCR really shines on a book like KiC where everything is in Japanese.

@rich_f: I don't have access to anything like that unless you can point me in the direction of something good and free which can deal with a mess of random furigana too? (I don't need the furigana, but just that it doesn't mess up the recognition.)

@wccrawford: Thanks. Yeah -- maybe for some people, but I'm very good at typing in zombie mode really fast and with no memory whatsoever of a single thing I typed, so I can't say! (If it helped I'd expect to see better performance remembering it initially than stuff from the net, and I've seen no such results thus far.)

I cut a page from the book, scanned, and tried to OCR awhile back. It didn't turn out so well because KIC uses a lot of underlining/bolding/furigana. I just used the OCR that comes the Acrobat though. Is there any other better OCR software out there that is free?

The scan was fine....everything just falls apart at the OCRing step.

what are you trying to gain from doing this? why are you trying to put the whole thing into an SRS as fast as possible? it's a waste of time.

if you really want to make the best use of the book, just study each chapter. when you've got a good grasp on the chapters content, add it to the SRS and move on to the next one.

I second what TGWeaver said. Even if you are doing this, and you want to save time with OCR, I would like to point out that manually input is also beneficial to memory and catching mistakes.

I think typing things into an SRS is the biggest waste of time ever. If there were a million pre-typed sentences then I would be using them. Typing them up doesn't help memory at all.

I agree with phauna. The time you waste on typing can be better spent reviewing new material.

There aren't any free OCR programs that I know of that will handle Japanese, but as you're in Shanghai, you should be able to find something that will handle Japanese. Ask around if you can. Scanner-wise, you don't need anything special. The cheapest flatbed you can get that will run will do just fine. The time savings are worth the money, IMO.

Maybe if you buy a Japanese flatbed scanner, it might come with some sort of OCR software... you might want to ask around about that. I'm sure someone here would know.

Quick question on OCR's; if you own the full version of Adobe Acrobat, and you scan in your document as PDF, can you use AA as an OCR to translate the image to text? Reason being is that I have a scanned PDF version of Genki which allows me to copy and paste the sentences, and I was wondering if it was done using AA-pro. (FTIN I also own a paper copy of both Genki 1 and 2).

stehr Wrote:Quick question on OCR's; if you own the full version of Adobe Acrobat, and you scan in your document as PDF, can you use AA as an OCR to translate the image to text? Reason being is that I have a scanned PDF version of Genki which allows me to copy and paste the sentences, and I was wondering if it was done using AA-pro. (FTIN I also own a paper copy of both Genki 1 and 2).

Yes, it can do this.

I don't know why anyone would think putting this PERFECT book into an SRS is a waste of time. If I can get it in with relatively little effort (like sharing the typing work), it is an EXTREMELY EFFICIENT use of time. Every Jouyou Kanji used in context (a whole sentences) covering the most common readings of each and 8,000 words of common vocabulary in the process. Not to mention entering the sentences into an SRS and seeing them at progressively greater intervals means the correct grammar and usage of the 8,000 words will be imprinted on my mind. Things don't get more efficient than that folks!

Alternatives(that I can imagine):
(1) Go to some ridiculous class starting from "baby" Kanji where they want you to learn every exotic reading of the basic characters before moving on. Even readings you might not encounter reading 2-3 full length novels. It's 100 times more efficient to learn COMMON USEFUL readings and then dive into reading novels as soon as possible. With their method you'll be ready for a novel in 5 - 10 years!

(2) Dig into a novel and SRS most unknown vocab --- also not too efficient because there is going to be a 50% common / 50% uncommon word mix and the uncommons will bog you down and not help your future reading exactly because they are rare (like appearing once in 3 full novels). Much more efficient to learn 8,000 common words as quickly as possible, THEN read the novel without a dictionary because you can get enough context to make a decent guess about the uncommon words. (And always have the option to look up one here and there that makes you curious, but still enjoy the story if you don't.)

Also if you use a novel --- a lot of the sentences can't be put into SRS because they don't have enough context on their own. Kanji in Context is specifically designed such that each sentence stands on its own.

I just meant that the typing itself is a waste of time, it won't help retention. I totally agree that sharing the typing is the best way.

parasitius Wrote:I don't know why anyone would think putting this PERFECT book into an SRS is a waste of time. If I can get it in with relatively little effort (like sharing the typing work), it is an EXTREMELY EFFICIENT use of time. Every Jouyou Kanji used in context (a whole sentences) covering the most common readings of each and 8,000 words of common vocabulary in the process. Not to mention entering the sentences into an SRS and seeing them at progressively greater intervals means the correct grammar and usage of the 8,000 words will be imprinted on my mind. Things don't get more efficient than that folks!

Alternatives(that I can imagine):
(1) Go to some ridiculous class starting from "baby" Kanji where they want you to learn every exotic reading of the basic characters before moving on. Even readings you might not encounter reading 2-3 full length novels. It's 100 times more efficient to learn COMMON USEFUL readings and then dive into reading novels as soon as possible. With their method you'll be ready for a novel in 5 - 10 years!

(2) Dig into a novel and SRS most unknown vocab --- also not too efficient because there is going to be a 50% common / 50% uncommon word mix and the uncommons will bog you down and not help your future reading exactly because they are rare (like appearing once in 3 full novels). Much more efficient to learn 8,000 common words as quickly as possible, THEN read the novel without a dictionary because you can get enough context to make a decent guess about the uncommon words. (And always have the option to look up one here and there that makes you curious, but still enjoy the story if you don't.)

Also if you use a novel --- a lot of the sentences can't be put into SRS because they don't have enough context on their own. Kanji in Context is specifically designed such that each sentence stands on its own.

ok. you're right. go for it. just plug those senteneces in ASAP, stare at the SRS for 18 months, move to japan, start a blog, and tell me all about it.

but seriously...an SRS is nothing more than a bunch of flashcards. having 8,000 cards in an SRS is no different than having 8,000 cards sitting around the house.

try reading children's books. the graded readers are great. anything is better than an SRS. and if you want to "review," you just re-read a chapter. it's much more interesting and it actually gives you something to talk to people about. if you read children's stories, you suddenly become familiar with something EVERY SINGLE japanese person grew up reading... you're suddenly connected. learning about momotaro, the one inch samurai, and the moon princess is much more helpful than a set list of kanji.

i tried the SRS thing. it led to massive boredom and frustration. it's the reason i bought kanji in context. i tried adding all of them, and around the 4-500 kanji mark i realized i didn't care about anything in the SRS on a personal level. the project shifted from "learning japanese and making friends" to "adding as many flashcards as possible." awful.

TGWeaver Wrote:i tried the SRS thing. it led to massive boredom and frustration. it's the reason i bought kanji in context. i tried adding all of them, and around the 4-500 kanji mark i realized i didn't care about anything in the SRS on a personal level. the project shifted from "learning japanese and making friends" to "adding as many flashcards as possible." awful.

That sounds more like a personal failing than any fault with the flashcards themselves. It's like if someone got in a car wreck, decided never to drive again, and then tried to convince other people that they shouldn't drive either, all while espousing the merits of bike-riding.

It happens to be a "personal failing" that a lot of people have trouble with. People learn easier when it's something they enjoy. Reading novels/manga is more enjoyable than textbooks. Therefore, reading novels/manga is easier than textbooks. QED.

Just because a lot of people fail doesn't make it any less of a failure. This was about SRS programs, though, and not textbooks. The two are not connected in any way, other than the fact that textbooks contain material which can be entered into an SRS. This is true of practically every form of media in existence, though, since you can put pretty much anything into an SRS.

Reading a novel is indeed more enjoyable than reading a textbook. However, hunting through a dictionary every time you come to a new word -- which is usually every word for a beginner -- is not. The reasons textbooks exist is to allow one to reach a place where one can use native materials to learn with only a minimum of effort, in a time far less than if you'd just tried to figure it out with native materials from the start.

I'd also hold that just because something is enjoyable doesn't necessarily mean it's useful. How many people do you know of that reached fluency by listening to J-Pop and watching subbed episodes of Inuyasha?

Mcjon01 Wrote:

TGWeaver Wrote:i tried the SRS thing. it led to massive boredom and frustration. it's the reason i bought kanji in context. i tried adding all of them, and around the 4-500 kanji mark i realized i didn't care about anything in the SRS on a personal level. the project shifted from "learning japanese and making friends" to "adding as many flashcards as possible." awful.

That sounds more like a personal failing than any fault with the flashcards themselves. It's like if someone got in a car wreck, decided never to drive again, and then tried to convince other people that they shouldn't drive either, all while espousing the merits of bike-riding.

You're missing the point. I got in a car wreck and now I'm trying to let people know how to avoid such a wreck. After driving the car for around a year, I've learned a thing or two along the way, and I'm hoping to help people learn from my mistakes.

Sentences are great. They help you learn the meanings and they're far better than the traditional English -> Japanese, Japanese -> English flashcards.

If people want to learn through sentences, that's fine too. Take a chapter of KinC, review the material, pracitce writing the kanji and the sentences, and use an SRS to review. Maybe even try using the new words with friends or in a journal... That's all really postive and really helpful.

But when people zerg-rush a text book, throw 10,000 sentences in an SRS and try to learn them ASAP, they frequently find themselves getting overwhelmed with cards and stuck in the mud. I'm not saying people shouldn't use an SRS; I'm saying that people should use it wisely. It's a tool, but it's not the only tool, and it's not even the most important one.

There is no rush to fluency. You get there when you get there. Having 10,000 sentences in an SRS doesn't mean a thing if you can't use them. Focus on learning them and THEN adding them, not adding them and then learning them. I guess that's my only advice... how you find them is up to you, but it's critical that you understand them before entering them, and that the SRS becomes a review and not a daily cram session.

Zerg-rush is a great verb, I'm going to use it. Well I zerg-rushed Japanese for Everyone, in about three months, that's about 1400 sentences, oh and I added some more myself into the spreadsheet which someone or other made. Ah, I was also doing some UBJG slowly typing it in, and one of those months I did a hundred or so KO kanji as well.

Of course I'm in a somewhat unique position of having absolutely nothing to do all day. So I did RTK in January and February, finished it, then added half of Tae Kim's site, then JFE, adding it and doing the exercises as well, along with KO and UBJG. As soon as everyone gets themselves in gear I'm going to finish up UBJG next month, and maybe even KO book 1 as well.

I estimate that I've added 3800 sentences in five months. Which is 700 a month roughly. Luckily I didn't need to type up many of them. My thinking is that if I have them there, ready to use I might as well power through them and then slow down and do other stuff once they are done and I have to start the laborious task of typing them in myself.

Another consideration is vocabulary. The main thing about SRS is the power to learn massive amounts of vocab. I'd rather know lots of vocab and then practice my speaking, listening or writing, than to practice skills a lot and acquire vocab slowly. I feel in traditional learning, vocab is the limiting factor in fluency. Basic grammar is very quickly picked up, but to read and listen you need a large amount of words to understand anything at all. I'd rather gain as many words as possible initially, and therefore be able to listen and recognise more things while I build my skills.

Agreed. Your "initial set" (coining a term now) is all about personal will-power. Do you recommend starting with a novel after learning 1 single Japanese word? 10? 100? It's quite arbitrary. But now after years of training, I have "will power of steel" and can take 3,000 words of a foreign language in a month. So it's WAY more efficient to just go for the gold and super burst 3,000 and then start reading and "activate" those 3,000 as I read each page and run across them (latent knowledge->active or familiar knowledge) than to make a meager stab spending some 6 months to learn 500 words and then using the same (actually much greater and more frustrating) reading effort to activate a mere 500.

I appreciate the warnings -- I faced similar language "failures" years back, but I'm ready for it now.

its not Kanji in Context, but the entire book entitled 日本語能力試験に出る漢字2級 http://www.amazon.co.jp is now in flash card form


its about 3000 sentences which i then inserted in mnemosyne http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org/index.php - its a free open source flashcard application that is based on spaced based repetition. I use it in conjunction with rikaichan to get any instant reviewing done


heres how i have one upped everyone else whose doing something like this- i paid one of my students - a 17 yr old male to read the entire thing for me. I then cut up all the sound files and added them to the cards.

while it isnt perfect - i still find small typos here and there (I also paid him to proof read, but he's only human) - and he isnt exactly a voice actor ( he reads a bit faster than i would have perferred he did). It is an absolutely awesome system to as fast as possible not only learn Kanji but to get the vocabulary into the voice inside your head - im talking total ownership of the word.

Unfortunately, this took me about 40+ hours of really hard work and im not just going to give it away. However, if somebody is interested I will sell it, along with a copy of the book.

of course i can provide a chapter or two as a trial. if you're seriously interested, send me an email or a post indicating so.

(honestly, i would pay a shit ton of money for this instead of doing what I did)

i can't believe what a tiny % of the people who have read this are signing up! haha. We are about to get started (sent out the first assignment to everyone just now) so if you want to participate, please PM me within a few days --- obviously we might not be cool with trading if someone wants to join in a month after we have done 90% of the work

I think most folks are worn out at the moment from typing up Kanji Odyssey, and now they are using it. KO is really similar to KiC, and it's already done.

Quote:there is going to be a 50% common / 50% uncommon word mix and the uncommons will bog you down and not help your future reading exactly because they are rare

Just a stupid little comment about this: common words, well... tend to be more common then the uncommon ones. So Maybe it would be more correct to say "more or less 90% common / 10% uncommon" (it also depends on the writer). And I think that this is the right balance one should aim for. Better than 100% common 0% uncommon, imo.
Anyway, you can ignore this, the heat must be getting to me...

second plug for KO2001. Its already done, and more current than KIC.