Hi,

I think grammar is my weakest point and has always been.
That's why I really want to know HOW exactly (details / examples) do YOU study grammar?
So as you might have figured, I don't want to hear what kind of books you use, but rather how you use them. Do you insert grammar points into SRS or only sentences?
Are you doing a lot of exercises?

I'm really curious

Thanks a lot in advance for all your answers (^-^)/

First thing, you should buy "Making Sense of Japanese: What the Textbooks don't you".
It's the best book of its kind and gives you a sense for what's going on inside the minds of Japanese people when they use grammar. You'll be better able to uncover nuances that you would have never thought existed before.


Next, I grab sentences from Understranding Basic Japanese Grammar by ALC Press.

Please read this thread for more details:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=1462

Here's what I do:
Whenever I look at a sentence, I focus on one or more pieces grammar.

For each piece of grammar, I ask myself:
1)Why did they use this particle grammar and not something else?
2)What ELSE could I have used in that sentence? Is the meaning still the same or slightly different in some way? (and then actually write the sentences down to prove
to yourself that you're not bluffing)

If you've finished RTK1, reading manga is also a great way to pick up sentences(since many manga have the pronunciation for EVERY kanji right there).

Anyway, good luck with your studies.

Buy the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar series, period. These are an absolute godsend, and will be an indispensable help to whatever else you're doing. Nowhere else do such detailed explanations of grammar exist. Don't understand the difference between たら／なら／〜ば／と? Neither did I, but I picked up pretty quickly after reading the entries in the DJBG. To me, having a straightforward, precise explanation is vastly more preferable than "OK, in these sentences he used x, in these he used y... now why is that..."

Plus, you can definitely just pick up the book, open it to a random entry (or page through until you find something interesting) and then read that entry and try to use it that day. You apparently live in Japan, so I'd hope you have someone you can practice that kind of thing with. Whenever you pick up a new grammar point, test it out on someone and then ask if you used it correctly or not (unless they're the type to correct every mistake you make). Again, if you don't have any Japanese friends and you live in Japan, which book you need to buy is the least of your worries.

Anywho, If you're going for serious high-level skill in Japanese (being able to pass the JLPT 2/1, actually knowing what you're doing and why you're doing it, saying things in a proper, precise and not "well thats good enough i guess" way) then those books are ... well, not exactly a requirement, but they'll make your life much easier.

I'm extremely happy with a book called どんな時どう使う日本語. It's a grammar book from ALC that provides good example sentences, explanations, and says which level of the 日本語能力試験 a given grammar point belongs to. I'm using it to study now for JLPT 2. I love it.

I didn't think I would like any grammar dictionaries. A "Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar" soured me on the entire experience. It requires getting used to the way linguists describe things rather than how actual humans describe things. Its approach is overly-linguistic, and the examples are marred by the fact that it uses romaji instead of hiragana for phonetic versions of the sentences. I find that very puzzling, distracting, and impossible to use. Every experience I've had with DBJG has been awful, but the book I recommended above is absolutely perfect.

It has example sentences(around 5 for each point), it's human readable, and it helps put you on a path toward the JLPT because the entries are marked.

Which edition of どんな時どう使う日本語 do you have? I have 日本語表現文型２００ which I haven't made as much use of as I could have, but I know they have some others I haven't tried. But I do like what I've read of it.

I've never used DBJG, but you could try a book called 日本語文型辞典　from くろしお社／グループ・ジャマシイ. It's not quite 'basic grammar', although might overlay sometimes. It doesn't go through the whole これはペンです、田中さんは優しい人です type sentences. It's more like どんな時どう使う・・・ really, in that it lists different bits of grammar or expressions (～ば、の方が、わけだ、やっぱり、さすが、～なければならない, etc). Each entry has between 2-3 to 8 example senteces/mini-dialogues and an (usually) concise explaination telling you how to use it, alternate expressions with similar meanings, nuances. The explainations are pretty easy to read and not heavy on linguistic terms or jargon. It's longer and more densely packed than どんな時どう使う (over 600+ pages with three columns of text on each pages), covering 3000 items to どんな時どう使う's 200.

But from the sounds of DBJG, the only drawback to the 日本語文型辞典 is that there's not a word of English in it. There's no translations to the example sentences, the explainations are completely in Japanese. (Although there is a Chinese translation available, that isn't much good for those of us who don't know Chinese).

Thinking about it, it's more of an intermediate/advanced book than one for beginners really.

EDIT; Since you mentioned the JLPT 2kyuu, is it this version of どんな時どう使う?
Link

They also seem to have a 文型辞典 in that series as well, but with English (among others) translations. Although the example sentences are just recycled from the other books from the looks of it?
Link

Apart from learning grammar from books, which is helpful, it's essential to mine sentences from sources that Japanese speakers use: manga, conversations, movies, etc. That way you get a feel for when native speakers use or don't use a certain grammatical structure. I know many Japanese exchange students who have a better knowledge of English grammar than most native English speakers, but they don't know how or when to use it. Learning sentences in context is essential. Check out the Antimoon site, (antimoon.com) and they explain how they learned English using this method. It's the best way to really learn to speak correctly with native proficiency, and native usage of words, etc. IMHO.

If you want to get grammar down real fast the easiest way to do that is go to Tae Kim's website http://www.guidetojapanese.org/ and just copy and paste every example sentence into anki... thats what i'm doing and i'm having unreal results ^_^. i got one of these ordered and it's on it's way too: http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/48288...4828804498
i'm planning on diving right into a Japanese-Japanese dictionary asap ^_^

so just SRS the heck out of yourself and you should be fine ^_^

Offtopic: I just amazed myself on how I could write nouryouku shiken, I just saw it once, examined all the kanji, and could write it after a few moments! RTK rocks!

erlog Wrote:I'm extremely happy with a book called どんな時どう使う日本語. It's a grammar book from ALC that provides good example sentences, explanations, and says which level of the 日本語能力試験 a given grammar point belongs to. I'm using it to study now for JLPT 2. I love it.

I took a quick peek at the Amazon preview and the book seems pretty good...however, I don't plan on taking the JLPT. How useful are these grammar structures in the real world?

suffah Wrote:

erlog Wrote:I'm extremely happy with a book called どんな時どう使う日本語. It's a grammar book from ALC that provides good example sentences, explanations, and says which level of the 日本語能力試験 a given grammar point belongs to. I'm using it to study now for JLPT 2. I love it.

I took a quick peek at the Amazon preview and the book seems pretty good...however, I don't plan on taking the JLPT. How useful are these grammar structures in the real world?

Wait, you mean there's a purpose to Japanese outside of the JLPT? The folks at thejapanesepage.com are gonna freak out if they hear that.

Yep, there is...and I'm usually absorbed in a non-mining environment every evening (reading + video games).

I just want to know how useful these books are for non-JLPT Japanese.

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/12/29/15258/287

This is the general method I follow, with changes.

albion Wrote:Which edition of どんな時どう使う日本語 do you have?

I have this version: どんな時どう使う 日本語表現文型辞典. It covers JLPT1-4. The example sentences are probably the same from other books in this series, but they're generally very good. If you buy the version I bought then you shouldn't need to buy another grammar reference for a long while.

I find that the little bit of english explanation it gives helps alot, and if I'm confused I just read the Japanese definition.

Also, a tip when picking a book like this, try to find books on Amazon that let you look inside them before you buy them. Where personal learning style is important, you need to flip through them to make sure it's going to work for you. So, follow that link, and look through that book. It's a great general-purpose resource along with being a good resource for the JLPT, if you would ever want to do that.

chamcham Wrote:If you've finished RTK1, reading manga is also a great way to pick up sentences(since many manga have the pronunciation for EVERY kanji right there).

I already read tons of mangas/doujinshis everyday. Basically I've been doing that for years now. Sometimes I just use things without even knowing WHY I use them, but I wouldn't call that "grammar knowledge".

ajishiosean Wrote:Buy the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar series, period.

I already have that book as well as the Intermediate one.
That's why I asked for the METHOD you use and not the books
But I like the books a lot, too. *nods*
Thanks for your comment

alyks Wrote:http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/12/29/15258/287

This is the general method I follow, with changes.

Sounds interesting, gonna read it now. Thanks

chochajin Wrote:I already read tons of mangas/doujinshis everyday. Basically I've been doing that for years now. Sometimes I just use things without even knowing WHY I use them, but I wouldn't call that "grammar knowledge".

No, I'd called that better than "grammar knowledge".

As long as you're using things right "without knowing why you use them", there's absolutely no problem at all.

In fact, your way is definitely preferable. Do you think many native English speakers can tell you why they used something? No, not unless they are going to teach it. Are you going to teach Japanese grammar? If so, then start learning. But let me tell you, you've got the advantage if you can do it by instinct.

chochajin Wrote:Sometimes I just use things without even knowing WHY I use them, but I wouldn't call that "grammar knowledge".

I'm not sure why you don't call that "grammar knowledge." If you are using speaking/writing correct sentences automatically, then you're headed in the right direction. No one can speak fluently if they have to think about grammar. The language has to become automatic.


Here's a good quote from the Antimoon website:

"Many learners have a strange habit. When somebody (e.g. a teacher) tells them the correct way to say something in English ("We say big red car.") or corrects their mistake ("You can't say red big car"), they like to ask "why?".

However, the question "why?" has no real answer. When asking the question, learners want to hear a grammar rule (e.g. "We say big red car because adjectives of size come before adjectives of color"). But the rule is not the reason why we don't say "red big car". The rule is only a description of native speakers' habits. It was invented by some linguist who simply noticed that native speakers never say "red big car" or "white small house".

In other words, it is not true that native speakers say "big red car" because they know the rule and follow it. It's the other way around. The size-color rule exists because native speakers say "big red car". Native speakers are the ones who create the language. Grammar rules only follow native speakers' habits.

We think that it doesn't make much sense to ask the question "why is that sentence correct, and not the other one?". The only good answer to that question would be "Because native speakers say that sentence, and not the other one.". Instead of wondering "why?", simply learn the correct way. You don't have to care that a linguist wrote a rule for it. Follow native speakers, not grammar rules. "

Obviously native speakers that don't know their grammar rules are generally worse at speaking. Grammar rules are extrapolated from use, but they also influence future changes, to think they don't is ridiculous. Being a language learner with a complete lack of grammar knowledge is a pretty dumb thing to aspire to. You want to be a specialist in this language, so you want to be able to explain most things to yourself. Input can give you the grammar rules with little theoretical grammar knowledge, but you are still naturally going to make your own rules, so why not get input and read a few grammar books as well. Just don't make grammar study your focus, it's kind of an after the fact explanation but it is still very useful.

Another way to think of it is, would you like to have a native speaker's language knowledge, or a native language teacher's language knowledge? Knowing more about something is rarely a bad thing.

That quote doesn't really say what you think it says. It's more of a philosophical argument about grammar vs. natural language. It has to do with a map-territory relation. A map is not itself the territory. It is only a symbolic representation of the territory. Grammar and language are related in exactly the same way. The grammar is not the language. It's a roadmap.

This is a fairly apt analogy because road maps, due to their inherent nature, can not represent every single facet of the territory. There are new roads here or there which are not documented. There are old roads which have since crumbled through lack of use. We see the same thing with language.

That quote warns against spending too much time studying only the grammar without connecting it back to the language itself. Grammar is great. It's a useful tool, but it is a philosophical, intellectual, and theoretical tool. Grammar is not an end in and of itself. Grammar is not language, it is about language.

One can know grammar, but still not be able to use the language. One can know the language but not be able to explain the grammar. The two work best when used in concert with each other, but if you had to pick only one to study, you would pick the actual language every single time.

That is what that quote is saying. It's not some argument toward becoming a grammatical luddite.

There's also a significant difference between knowing something intellectually and knowing something intrinsically. Speaking is not an intellectual skill. People rarely think at a high level about what grammar they're using when they speak. They just use it. They don't have to think about it because they understand it in an intrinsic way. Doing a whole ton of grammar study, intellectual study, of something that is an intrinsic process doesn't necessarily bring you closer to the goal.

At the end of the day, in order to be fluent, you have to convert that intellectual knowledge into intrinsic knowledge. Just like how you could read the equivalent of a set of encyclopedias on how to play basketball, but if you never set foot on the court you'd still be an absolute novice.

Long story short: Study grammar, but realize that study of grammar has limitations that can only be overcome through wisdom gained by experience.

I used to study grammar by reading the explanation of a grammar point, learning how to do any conjugations necessary, and reading sentence examples.
Of course, conjugations are limited information, so I learned them ages ago. Explanations are also harder to come by beyond the basic stage. So now a days, I just read and learn from the sentence examples.

phauna Wrote:Obviously native speakers that don't know their grammar rules are generally worse at speaking. Grammar rules are extrapolated from use, but they also influence future changes, to think they don't is ridiculous. Being a language learner with a complete lack of grammar knowledge is a pretty dumb thing to aspire to.

Sorry, can't resist. Prescriptive grammar rules influence language use less than you think. Case in point (above). We've had the "rule" for a long time not to end sentences with prepositions. Yes, it's followed in some types of formal writing, but not in general use... "a pretty dumb thing to which to aspire" would sound pretty dumb. Presumably you were following native language patterns there rather than prescriptive rules...

The problem is with the specific rule, not the prescriptive approach. Not to end a sentence with preposition is plainly not a rule in the English language. Same with the supposed rule not to split an infinitive.

My opinion on prescriptive grammar is as follows.
(1) A grammar that accurately describes a language can then be used prescriptively for teaching beginners to learn the language.
(2) Expect to find exceptions to rules.

I personally don't have too much trouble learning and applying grammar, so I don't know what more advice to give. My personal difficulty, especially with a rich language like Japanese, is learning vocabulary and the mass of synonyms with different shades of meaning.